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“ISO obstructs adoption of standards by paywalling them”

1010 点作者 linksbro大约 4 年前

59 条评论

olieidel大约 4 年前
Finally this is getting some attention. Somewhat related, Healthcare startups are struggling with this because the standards they have to comply with (for developing medical software) cost up to 280 EUR (for a pdf!). [1]<p>One common workaround is to go to &quot;the Estonian site&quot; which offers the same, English version of standards for a much lower price [2]. Being a bit cynical, I would say that Estonia prioritises open information much more highly than.. other developed countries. I created a price comparison on my website [3].<p>But: The core problem of standards being openly available is still not solved. Why is this not possible? For me, standards are very comparable to the law: A large number of people should comply with it. For that, they must be openly available to everyone. Everything else doesn&#x27;t make sense. Is that unreasonable?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso.org&#x2F;standard&#x2F;38421.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso.org&#x2F;standard&#x2F;38421.html</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.evs.ee&#x2F;en&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.evs.ee&#x2F;en&#x2F;</a> [3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;openregulatory.com&#x2F;accessing-standards&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;openregulatory.com&#x2F;accessing-standards&#x2F;</a>
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leoedin大约 4 年前
The price of standards makes me angry. They&#x27;re essentially a form of legislation in many countries - to sell anything in the EU you have to comply with the relevant safety standards. Yet they&#x27;re kept under lock and key - to read the rules which you need to follow to sell something in your own country, you need to pay a 3rd party hundreds of Euros.<p>And when you read the standards, they reference other standards. Eventually you have to build a graph of standards to which you must comply, each one costing hundreds of Euros. It&#x27;s a complete racket.<p>The worst thing is that the standards themselves tend to be written by 3rd party organisations with an interest in that domain, so they have a strong incentive to make the standard match with whatever they&#x27;re doing. So not only does a new startup have to spend months reading hugely expensive dry safety standards, you also have to build something which is essentially a worse version of the incumbents.
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rdpintqogeogsaa大约 4 年前
&gt; The value of standards is in their adoption.<p>Tim Sweeney correctly observes this, then continues to talk about &quot;millions of hobbyist programmers&quot;. I do not believe that ISO targets, or even has any remote interest, in this market.<p>ISO is comprised of nation-state members who will inevitably mandate ISO standards as part of legal compliance. Various stakeholders actually participate in standardization efforts and thus also both already know the standard and are able to push it through. All of these categories (government, industries in highly regulated sectors and large stakeholders) have large amounts of capital. The amount of money required to fund a purchase of an ISO standard barely even factors in on a balance sheet.<p>Hobbyist programmers arguably make a lot of open source software that builds the foundation for today&#x27;s and tomorrow&#x27;s platforms. However, when the big bulldozers from the previous paragraph roll in, hobbyist programmers give way to highly paid employees of these giants; be it by merging a patch or be it by being worked around with a greenfield project or fork.<p>On the other hand, ISO has an incentive in charging money for their standards because this adds perceived value: If something is freely available, it is easier to dismiss it as a non-serious effort when debating whether it is worth to bind personnel for participation in the standards committees; the standards come across as valueless, worthless.<p>Looking at this vector of interests of the various parties involved, I see little reason for this state of affairs to improve.
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Kranar大约 4 年前
I can&#x27;t speak about the ISO as a whole for engineering fields, but the ISO standardization process has worked out horribly for the C++ community. Not only for the issues Tim Sweeney points out, but the entire C++ standardization process is defacto a closed-off and secretive process where participation is limited to those who can physically travel from place to place and it&#x27;s painfully obvious that the quality of features in C++ are much lower than what they could have been otherwise.<p>A common claim made by the ISO C++ committee regarding criticism of the language is that these guys are volunteers working in a mostly unpaid capacity on the language, and often have to hit tight deadlines to have any shot at getting a feature into the standard, and that&#x27;s true exactly because of how arcane the ISO standardization process is. It&#x27;s this pseudo-antagonistic process where maybe one or two individuals are tasked to &quot;champion&quot; a paper in front of their peers and then everyone is supposed to pretend that there&#x27;s no politics involved and that the paper gets approved entirely on its technical merit.<p>C++ would have been much better served from ditching that and doing what Java, Python, and Rust do, have broad community feedback and input. It&#x27;s hard to imagine what beneficial features are in C++ that would not still be there had there been involvement from the broader community of game developers, embedded device developers, desktop software developers and a host of people who use the language regularly, but it&#x27;s clear many clumsy and awkward features would have been eliminated, including the now 50 ways of initializing variables, broken standard library features like std::variant, the now unusable std::regex, the minefield that is std::random, the upcoming bloated and error prone std::ranges, it&#x27;s no wonder many C++ development teams are skeptical of the utility of the standard library and just roll their own alternatives.<p>I hope no other language goes down the road of using ISO to standardize its language.
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munk-a大约 4 年前
I am a rather seasoned database person at this point, but when I wasn&#x27;t - when I was just getting into database interactions - I had an academic background in relational algebra and I knew that SQL was the main communication language. For day to day work this was fine but at one point I was tasked with making our application DBMS neutral with support for running on top of SQLServer (TSQL), PostgreSQL, and MySQL. My first thought when coming to this problem was, well, let&#x27;s take a good look at the grand daddy doco so I attempted to find the SQL standard.<p>It disappoints me that, to this day, the best reference for pure SQL out there are the postgres docs, postgres is actually pretty good about calling out non-compliances so you can get a really good grounding of what code is likely to be cross platform compatible.<p>I 100% agree with Tim Sweeney&#x27;s sentiment. ISO are terrible at their job.
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pronik大约 4 年前
It&#x27;s way beyond comical right now. PDF standard document has been available from evil monopolist&#x27;s Adobe&#x27;s website for free up until version 1.7. Version 2.0 has been &quot;freed&quot; from Adobe and is now an &quot;open&quot; ISO standard and costs about €180. Guess what I&#x27;m reading when I need to work with PDFs...
dec0dedab0de大约 4 年前
About 15 years ago I worked at a small ISP and one of my jobs was handling dmca take downs. Normally this was someone using bit torrent or other p2p software, and I would call them up and tell them to knock it off, or put a note on their account and block them until they called in.<p>One time it was IEEE, one of our customers was a college professor, and he was using his personal web hosting space (remember that?) To host his syllabus including a pdf of one of their standards. I tried to get a hold of him multiple times, but they kept contacting us, more aggressively than the RIAA or MPAA ever did. So I just deleted the file.
ak217大约 4 年前
Aside from Tim making very good points, ISO-8601 is not a good standard - it tries to specify too many formats and ends up being so flexible that full compliance is rare. RFC 3339 is an open standard and is much simpler and more practical.
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s1mon大约 4 年前
It&#x27;s not just the ISO. ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers), IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission), PIA (Plastics Industry Association), etc. all have standards which they are supposedly trying to promulgate. There are a few standards that I&#x27;ve needed professionally which are freely available: the USB specs and the MIDI specs. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;usb.org&#x2F;documents" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;usb.org&#x2F;documents</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.midi.org&#x2F;specifications" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.midi.org&#x2F;specifications</a><p>When specifications needed to be printed and shipped, I understand that costs money, but electronic standards should be very low to zero cost to download.<p>I did find that DIN (Deutsche Institut für Normung or German Institute for Standardisation) is starting to publish some of their standards for free. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.din.de&#x2F;en&#x2F;din-and-our-partners&#x2F;press&#x2F;press-releases&#x2F;free-download-of-all-din-spec-pas-documents-at-www-beuth-de-262538" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.din.de&#x2F;en&#x2F;din-and-our-partners&#x2F;press&#x2F;press-relea...</a><p>In the US, anything that is published by the government is supposed to be free of copyright. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.govinfo.gov&#x2F;about&#x2F;policies" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.govinfo.gov&#x2F;about&#x2F;policies</a>
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SloopJon大约 4 年前
The posted link took me straight to Tim&#x27;s tweet, so I didn&#x27;t realize at first that he was replying to @isostandards:<p>&gt; Hello, unfortunately, the ISO Central Secretariat does not provide free copies of standards. All ISO Publications derive from the work and contributions of ISO and ISO Members that contain intellectual property of demonstrable economic value.<p>&gt; For this reason, considering the value of standards, their economic and social importance, the costs of their development and maintenance, we and all ISO Members have the interest to protect the value of ISO Publications and National Adoptions, not making them publicly available.<p>The ISO standard that I have the most experience with is ISO&#x2F;IEC 9899:1990, aka C90. Part of the reason for that, of course, is that I had a used copy of Herbert Schildt&#x27;s <i>Annotated ANSI C Standard</i>; it&#x27;s also a considerably smaller standard than, say, SQL or C++.<p>I&#x27;m of mixed minds as to the value of the C standard. There is certainly value in having <i>a</i> standard. After sufficient study and deliberation, you can usually determine whether an input program or compiler implementation is standards conforming. When I compare the evolution of C and C++ to say, Python and Rust, I have trouble pointing to the specific value that ISO adds.<p>This isn&#x27;t really a fair comparison, because the difference between C&#x2F;C++ and Python&#x2F;Rust isn&#x27;t just the process, but the end result. I judge C and C++ not just by ISO&#x27;s efforts, but by those of Microsoft, IBM, GNU, LLVM, etc. Python and Rust, meanwhile, ship a working reference implementation, and do a pretty good job of it. Rust has improved quite a bit six weeks at a time. C standards, meanwhile, ship closer to every decade. Even the new rapid pace of C++ is every three years.
yakubin大约 4 年前
Aside from obstructing access, ISO produces really low-quality standards. The prose alone leaves much to be desired in terms of clarity and concision. Knowing that, I&#x27;m relieved each time I am to deal with an IETF standard instead, which wins on both fronts (quality and access).
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neilv大约 4 年前
And you really do need the standard.<p>I implemented the entirety of ISO 8601 years ago (not just the most common 5% that most people are aware of) -- parsing, representation, writing, validation, and arithmetic -- and there&#x27;s no way I could&#x27;ve guessed some of the stranger cases the standard explicitly supports, and how, without being told what they are.<p>I hope I never see some of the truncated and reduced precision forms in practice, since perhaps no one but the handful of people with access to the standard will be able to interpret those correctly. :)
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SulphurCrested大约 4 年前
ISO&#x27;s argument seems to be that the fees fund the actual standardisation process – trips to conferences, meetings and other &quot;technical work&quot;.<p>I could agree for something like the international definition of physical quantities, where people have to do actual experiments, or travel to see equipment or even transport standard items.<p>But in software designs, often when you tip more resources into a project, you get a <i>worse</i> result. This is true for the C++ standard. Some necessary improvements occur (modules, finally, albeit incomplete with respect to build details), but as long as a large group of people meet to evaluate each others&#x27; proposals in a series of desirable resorts, the language will continue to grow in size and complexity whether or not it actually needs to. For example, adding &quot;xvalues&quot; to &quot;lvalues&quot; and &quot;rvalues&quot; may solve some earlier design problem in the standard library, but makes the language less understandable for users and implementers and the standards text more opaque.<p>Indeed, the standards language for C++ is so inscrutable one suspects that you need to be a full-time expert to fully understand it. It then becomes a career for the people involved in the standardisation. Now they have an incentive for the language to grow without bound, and the more complex and hard to understand it becomes, the better.
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Faaak大约 4 年前
Sometimes even, the standard is split into different norms. For example, the EV charging cable is defined in EC 62196-{1..6}. Which in turn address other standards. So you finally need to by at least 10 PDFs to understand the darn thing..
robmccoll大约 4 年前
Private standards are also how you end up with a variety of implementations that are all non-conforming in their own subtle ways. Some because the authors didn&#x27;t have access and were attempting to do the best they could with documentation from other implementations, third party articles, and reverse engineering. Some because the authors have the standards, but the consumers of their products don&#x27;t and won&#x27;t hold the authors accountable since they don&#x27;t know how it is really supposed to work anyway. Others because they think there is competitive advantage in deviating from the standard.<p>It&#x27;s hard enough getting consistent behavior out multiple implementations of the same public standards.
nraynaud大约 4 年前
I would at least start by distributing for free all standards targeted by a legislation.<p>Because those suckers cross-reference each other like crazy, a standard can have only a few paragraphs of useful content (and pages and pages of legaleeze and revision management around).
An_ISO_Dude大约 4 年前
Speaking as someone who is on an ISO committee, this topic of discussion comes up every couple years.<p>The bottom line is that there are and will always be costs associated with a running an organization, regardless of whether they are for or non profit. There are overhead costs associated with running a website, conferences, technical review, or collaboration tooling for example. While some revenue comes from participants and membership fees, not everything gets covered. The organization does a lot for the public good and it&#x27;s unacceptable to criticize these passionate engineers that have dedicated their careers to ensuring proper standards globally.
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tuke大约 4 年前
This has bugged me for a long time.<p>My company complies with HITRUST. Many of the HITRUST controls are syntheses of controls found in NIST, ISO, and other organizations.<p>In some cases, I want to know where a HITRUST control comes from: But since I can&#x27;t look at ISO without paying, I am blocked from understanding the provenance of some HITRUST controls.<p>I don&#x27;t like that.
saw-lau大约 4 年前
This has always frustrated me. I sit on a number of IEC working groups as a technical expert (as part of TC 80 for maritime equipment). None of us get paid by the IEC (which is fine), but we all donate either ours or our company&#x27;s time to attend meetings and produce input papers, etc. Meeting rooms tend to be provided by either national standards bodies (like BSI here in the UK) or companies who are providing technical experts to the meeting. In pre-COVID days the meetings were face-to-face, which meant somebody (not the IEC!) stumping up for travel and accommodation as well.<p>Even as members of these working groups writing standards that refer out to other standards, we don&#x27;t get free access to these and have to pay for them. It&#x27;s crazy.<p>I&#x27;m really proud of the work I&#x27;ve done over the years helping to get these standards published, but it&#x27;s really annoying that there&#x27;s such a barrier of entry to people who want to use them to produce compliant equipment.
bokohut大约 4 年前
As one that has experienced a project in the research phase being figuratively knee-capped by this money grab one would be led to believe that the ISO organization themselves would clearly and quite obviously see the lack of standards adoptions sourced from their very own actions. Catch-22 anyone?
Rapzid大约 4 年前
I went to make a SQL to AST parser; was absolutely shocked to discover you had to purchase the SQL standard.
derefr大约 4 年前
IMHO the fact that it costs money to read the ANSI SQL standard, is the biggest reason there’s never been any work toward a standardized SQL wire protocol.<p>(At this point Postgres’s wire protocol is becoming the de-facto wire protocol for smaller players to make themselves compatible with, but that’s still a long ways from being able to talk to every <i>major enterprise</i> DBMS with the same codec-layer library, rather than needing ODBC-style codec plugins.)<p>You need tons and tons of people to work together on a cross-implementation standardization effort like that (including, hopefully, lots of volunteer FOSS contributors); and all those people would need to be referencing the standard constantly. It’d just be untenable if every one of them needed to pay to see the standard they were coding against.
tannhaeuser大约 4 年前
Don&#x27;t know for which technical domain he demands open access to ISO standard texts (because many ISO standards, in fact, can be freely accessed [1] while others are accessible as pre-final, nearly identical versions), but I&#x27;m guessing ISO being essentially a complicated joint org of national standardization bodies, changing treaties and getting member votes etc. would be a difficult thing to do at this point. There&#x27;s also the issue of spec editors selling copies of books containing spec text with commentary for financial compensation of their work.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;standards.iso.org&#x2F;ittf&#x2F;PubliclyAvailableStandards&#x2F;index.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;standards.iso.org&#x2F;ittf&#x2F;PubliclyAvailableStandards&#x2F;in...</a>
aejnsn大约 4 年前
I have had the hardest time with getting other developers to understand standards because of this. If the standards are walled off in some privileged access, how can the public, or users thereof, understand, much less contribute to said standards? There has to be a better mechanism.
dj_mc_merlin大约 4 年前
I was not aware people buy ISOs at all. I thought everyone pirated them and only companies paid the actual price, same as with software licenses.
ChuckMcM大约 4 年前
This is the engineering equivalent of scientific journals.
ngcc_hk大约 4 年前
It is a surprise to see even the title. It is the fundamental reason why ietf beat iso. How to do x25, ftam, ... etc., you are F... Sorry. Still remember the university I do have an outdated x25 as it can pay to get the update. How to implement ... sorry who on earth you dare to write anything on asn.1 which is supervisor of your post-doc.<p>long time ago there is about a guy going around the world how his book on decnet and a new networking standard call “internet” is doing. He showed a bot how hard to get hold of iso standard.<p>Those were the days. I thought ... or they still do not learn.
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LockAndLol大约 4 年前
Is there going to be a scihub for specs? Spechub? This seems to be the build IP towards that.
curtis3389大约 4 年前
Even if you get past the paywall, you&#x27;ll be presented with incredibly obtuse standards.<p>I tried to use ISO 1016 for writing a software design doc with some success, but it was like pulling teeth.<p>First, you needed multiple ISO dictionaries to find out what half the words are referring to, and even then things are ill-defined.<p>For example, one of the required sections in an ISO SDD is the Context, but nowhere is context defined or described.<p>The standards just seem like a web of academic garbage with no connection to reality.<p>Woe to anyone that must implement them as part of their job.
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camdenlock大约 4 年前
I haven’t seen anyone ask this question yet: do we LOSE anything by removing these fees? Does the incentive structure change in any meaningful way? i.e. do we need these fees in order to incentivize the production of quality standards?<p>I agree that the fees seem like annoying gatekeepers, and antithetical to the purpose of standards. But if we remove them, where do the economic incentives come from?
not_knuth大约 4 年前
I vaguely remember ISO wanting to make their standards freely available a couple of years back, but the BSI (British Standards Institute) blocking the move, because it conflicted with <i>their</i> business model.<p>I can&#x27;t find a reference to it though and it was only briefly announced during an ISO meeting. Is there someone from ISO who can back this up?
mleonhard大约 4 年前
IETF works around ISO&#x27;s paywall by including necessary info in their free RFCs. For example, TLS uses X.509 certificates which use &quot;ASN.1 object identifier&quot; numbers from a non-free ISO&#x2F;IEC&#x2F;ITU document [0] [1]. IETF includes the required and optional numbers in the appendix of their free RFC on X.509 [2].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso.org&#x2F;standard&#x2F;80321.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.iso.org&#x2F;standard&#x2F;80321.html</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.itu.int&#x2F;rec&#x2F;T-REC-X.520" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.itu.int&#x2F;rec&#x2F;T-REC-X.520</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tools.ietf.org&#x2F;html&#x2F;rfc5280#section-4.1.2.4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tools.ietf.org&#x2F;html&#x2F;rfc5280#section-4.1.2.4</a>
MaxBarraclough大约 4 年前
I was certain that the Ada language spec - an ISO standard - was made freely available. I was mistaken. They only make an old version freely available. [0]<p>I get the impression the standardisation of Ada has been broadly successful in providing assurance of conformity, [1] but that still doesn&#x27;t excuse paywalling the document.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ISO&#x2F;IEC_8652" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ISO&#x2F;IEC_8652</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adaic.org&#x2F;ada-resources&#x2F;standards&#x2F;ada-95-documents&#x2F;acaa&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adaic.org&#x2F;ada-resources&#x2F;standards&#x2F;ada-95-documen...</a>
jonsneyers大约 4 年前
As an editor of ISO&#x2F;IEC 18181 (JPEG XL), I politely yet strongly disagree with this ISO policy of paywalling standards. It is an adoption obstacle and an incentive to use outdated drafts.<p>The core of the problem is that we somehow put a private Swiss company in charge of international standardization. Of course that company needs to make money _somehow_ to pay its staff. But that would better be done via government subsidies than via selling specs.<p>In a way, this reminds me a lot of academic publishing. It&#x27;s not the publishers who write the papers, yet they get to paywall science.<p>We need open access standards, just like we need open access scientific journals.
ramboldio大约 4 年前
German DIN &#x2F; Beuth Publishing does the same. Even for students the only option is to come by a branch of the publisher. Can&#x27;t comprehend how they are still considered a &#x27;standard&#x27;.
Causality1大约 4 年前
That&#x27;s pretty wild. If the standards aren&#x27;t open-access how am I supposed to know if someone who claims to be following them is actually doing so?
gred大约 4 年前
Can we frame this as an equity or social justice issue, so that we can leverage the social media MaaS (Mob as a Service) infrastructure to effect change?
shadowgovt大约 4 年前
Yes, which is why so many standards are not ISO.<p>Some are, to be certain. Especially standards where a lot of money is riding on all the adopters agreeing on compliance, so there&#x27;s a certain benefit to the &quot;money where your mouth is&quot; aspect of the service ISO provides.<p>But plenty of highly influential standards are not ISO.
Const-me大约 4 年前
I think that’s one of the reasons why Linux doesn’t have a multimedia stack on par with MS Media Foundation or Apple Core Video: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;MPEG-4#MPEG-4_Parts" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;MPEG-4#MPEG-4_Parts</a>
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ndesaulniers大约 4 年前
Yep, hence GNU C extensions. Many are good and solve deficiencies in the language. I wish there was more collaboration between implementations before any became widespread in use, but I can appreciate avoiding design by committee.
pornel大约 4 年前
I&#x27;ve recently implemented an AVIF encoder (built on ISO HEIF), and working with the specs was quite unpleasant. It&#x27;s a tower of ISO standards built on top of other ISO standards, with each level they&#x27;re getting older, broader, and less relevant to the original format they were supposed to be for, so sum of all these specs makes something that is bloated and overcomplicated.<p>A key spec in this pile was paywalled, so I&#x27;ve reverse-engineered an existing implementation instead. And guess what? The implementation I used as a reference wasn&#x27;t compliant with the paywalled standard either. So now AVIF-in-the-wild is not compatible with the ISO-AVIF. Great job, ISO!
miga大约 4 年前
Is it even legal to require standards compliance in the law? I thought that law has to be open and available to everyone?
secfirstmd大约 4 年前
If a standard is the cost of a monthly wage in most of the world it&#x27;s not a useful standard
phendrenad2大约 4 年前
&quot;Everything should be free except the things I make&quot; Twitter is at it again.
smashah大约 4 年前
Is there an example of something akin to ISO standards but on GitHub?
FrozenVoid大约 4 年前
having a paid standard devalues the entire concept of &#x27;standards&#x27; and instead encourages non-standard approaches, like having a secret law would promote non-compliance to it.
rjsw大约 4 年前
I believe that the largest group of related ISO standards in terms of number of pages is ISO 10303 [1], I suspect that they could have achieved wider adoption if they were not paywalled.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ISO_10303" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;ISO_10303</a>
nwhatt大约 4 年前
Healthcare has long been the same way, HL7 was paywalled ($1000+&#x2F;yr membership until 2012).X12 is still in the thousands for membership.
dboreham大约 4 年前
30 years too late.
bondolo大约 4 年前
I am glad that this is getting attention. Open access has been a discussed issue for academic journals for some time already but the locked down access for standards has received little attention. In addition to ISO the IEEE, SAE, NMEA all have their standards behind paywalls. Even ASN.1 was for many years, long after it was adopted for the RSA PKCS standards, a paywalled standard. This is incredibly frustrating.<p>I remember sending cheques to &quot;Global Engineering Documents&quot; in Englewood Colorado to get printed copies of various standards back in the 1990s and hoping that would die with the advent of the Internet and the possibility of cheaply distributing information. It was understandable in the world of paper that if you wanted some obscure technical document that it was expensive. They retained the publishing model but eliminated the reason it was expensive.<p>It has been encouraging that people like Carl Malamud have been working at making various aspects of our laws, regulations and standards public but more work is needed.<p>Some of my tweets over the years on the topic of open access standards:<p>&quot;I am really thrilled by sudden attention on paywalled standards. Current model hurts standardization. So how about it @SAEIntl, @IEEESA, @NMEA_org, @isostandards, @ITUstandards will you join the 21st century and move to free open access standards? Alternative is your irrelevancy.&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1369033695030513670" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1369033695030513670</a><p>&quot;It annoys me that the IEEE standard for publishing test results probably won&#x27;t be adopted by software industry because it is behind a fricking paywall <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ieeexplore.ieee.org&#x2F;document&#x2F;8662798" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ieeexplore.ieee.org&#x2F;document&#x2F;8662798</a>&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1273718847497887744" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1273718847497887744</a><p>&quot;I don&#x27;t like that @IEEESA or @SAEIntl put their standards behind paywalls. Whatever revenue this publishing model makes is grossly offset by the impairment to, you know, standardization.&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1308889681187221505" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1308889681187221505</a><p>&quot;How many bullshit encodings have been created since 1984 because ASN.1 wasn&#x27;t a freely available standard? Not that it is perfect but SO MUCH PAIN could have been avoided if there had been community adoption. That adoption didn&#x27;t happen because it was not an open access standard.&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1308892326098546691" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;1308892326098546691</a><p>&quot;Free the codes! <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;publicresource&#x2F;public-safety-codes-of-the-world-stand-up-for-safe" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;publicresource&#x2F;public-s...</a> Only slightly worse than patent trolls are public standards behind paywalls.&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;384767046753320962" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;mjduigou&#x2F;status&#x2F;384767046753320962</a>
p1mrx大约 4 年前
Let&#x27;s protest by switching to YYYY-DD-MM.
smitop大约 4 年前
Recently I was curious as to how the wireless emergency alert systems work. But the actual specifications [1] from ATIS (another standardisation body) that carriers are required to implement are paywalled with ridiculous prices. $145 for a 35 page PDF is way too much, and makes the whole system way less transparent.<p>[1] e.g. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.techstreet.com&#x2F;standards&#x2F;atis-0700036-v002?product_id=2044512" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.techstreet.com&#x2F;standards&#x2F;atis-0700036-v002?produ...</a>
j1elo大约 4 年前
I see a nice parallelism with the concept of OSS. All these paywalled standards are like closed source software, in the sense that they are not created under terms that ultimately protect the freedoms of final consumers (those who end up reading the PDF).<p>The ISO business model is creating something (standards) and then profiting from their distribution.
ketamine__大约 4 年前
Seems a bit dramatic.
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bombcar大约 4 年前
In a time of vast databases of paywalled scientific papers you&#x27;re telling me nobody has a collection of ISO standards?
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moonbug大约 4 年前
this dude needs to learn about libraries.
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yehButEpic8大约 4 年前
Dear Tim Sweeney,<p>Get together with Unity and open source your engines so we can drive towards a standard.<p>What’s actually interesting is content. Why should we developers be locked into walled gardens?<p>Thanks
plankers大约 4 年前
There&#x27;s something beautiful about watching a billionaire (or almost one) tell the ISO Central Secretariat &quot;That&#x27;s dumb.&quot;
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peterlk大约 4 年前
If there is anyone on earth who could reinvent the internet, it is Tim Sweeney. The metaverse is coming, and it will exist because of him. Think I&#x27;m being hyperbolic? Go listen to his SigGraph 2019 talk
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