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So You Want to Do an Infrastructure Package [pdf]

140 点作者 ruddct大约 4 年前

25 条评论

legitster大约 4 年前
From the paper:<p>&gt;Overdesign: American infrastructure is often overbuilt, not out of higher quality but out of agency turf battles, obsolete standards like NFPA 130 that have better foreign replacements, or scope creep.<p>&gt;Poor procurement practices: there is improper supervision of private contractors, and things are getting worse as public agencies offload more risk to the private sector, which responds by bidding higher to hedge against the risk; there are also some one-bid contracts, for example the 7 extension in New York, leading to even higher costs.<p>&gt; Poor project management: design review teams are usually understaffed and cannot respond to contractors fast, so there is little institutional capacity to build big projects. Wages for office workers are below market rate and hiring is difficult.<p>&gt;Labor: in New York, the productivity of construction labor seems unusually low and wages high.<p>&gt;NIMBYism: the United States makes it easy to sue, for example NEPA is enforced by lawsuit, whereas its Italian equivalent is enforced by the administrative state. Lawsuits in the US and other lawsuit-happy countries like Germany rarely win, but do delay projects, so there is defensive design, including unnecessary scope in order to buy off political support. Leah Brooks and Zachary Liscow have a paper on the growth in Interstate construction costs over the decades, blaming citizen voice lawsuits for the increase.<p>&gt;Politicization of projects: the civil service is weak compared with both elected politicians and their unelected political appointees, and there is not much continuity in design.<p>One thing I think they missed, environmental impact studies (that aren&#x27;t even associated with reduced environmental impact!) I remember Seattle&#x27;s light rail project included 8 years of environmental impact review of a light rail extensions along routes that were planned along existing rail corridors!<p>Also, relating to overdesign, I think younger generations suffer from a cult of perfectionism. But perfect is the enemy of good. A streetcar might seem so much cooler, but a dedicated rapid bus can do more with less money!
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chiefofgxbxl大约 4 年前
This paper addresses bureaucracy and its effects on expense, but it sort of makes the assumption that lowering the price is the goal. It seems to me that high cost is convenient to artificially &quot;create jobs&quot; and bureaucracy, hence it&#x27;s a feature, not a bug.<p>An example from my local city: our small city (33k pop) won a $10mil grant for downtown revitalization. The money is supposed to help stimulate small business growth in the downtown. The administration spends $1.1 mil tearing down a parking garage, another $600k building a parking lot on <i>the same piece of land</i> of the garage, and they&#x27;ve got their fingers crossed they can get a developer to build an apartment complex there, which means they&#x27;ll have to tear up the parking lot. The cherry on top is knowing we also commissioned a report to study downtown parking trends, and know that even on the busiest day up to 80% of parking spaces are unused. But the administration celebrated the 10-12 construction jobs they created.<p>Anyone who has taken a basic economics course would recognize this as the Broken Window Fallacy, but our officials either don&#x27;t know or don&#x27;t care (my guess is the latter). Spend lots of money - create useless jobs - that&#x27;s how a productive economy is supposed to work, right?
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joe_the_user大约 4 年前
This situation shows many aspects of American governance reaching a pathological level.<p>You have the patchwork of local, county, state and Federal government. You have the adversarial legal and regulatory framework. And you have a powerful &quot;anti-government&quot; ideology that fails to even understand that most projects happen through the cooperation of industry and the state. And on the other hand you have a &quot;left&quot; that wants to cheer sticking-it-to whatever given corporation rather than pushing sane regulation. And you have dysfunctional ideologies around both taxation and government spending. And NIMBYism but with the opposite being developers wanting no fetters at all, etc, etc.
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takk309大约 4 年前
As someone that works for a civil engineering consultant in the transportation field I can attest to the bureaucracy from the State leading to higher costs. We routinely increase our bids because we know that the amount of time spent dealing with them will be large and delt with by a high paided, often highest paid, person on the project. There are quite a few things that we do to appease them people at state DOTs that we don&#x27;t have to worry about when working with a City or private entity.<p>It come down to two things, in my opinion. First is the nightmare that is Federal funding. The State administers the funding and has to take funding for multiple Federal programs a put it toward a given project. Ultimately they pass the paperwork off to the consultant instead of doing it themselves.<p>Second is the number of people in positions of power that are only in that position due to time spent with the State. These individuals are ineffective at their job (see point 1), and feel they have to justify their position by critiquing stupid things. One example is when we tried to use a different san serif font and column justification on a report. We got a stearns talking to about how ariel is the preferred font and left justified is the preference of the individual. This of course took a half hour meeting that likely cost north of $500 when you account for the wages of the engineers involved.
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davidw大约 4 年前
Anecdotally, I was writing some side-project code to help learn about new housing to support where I live, and I found this project. In the middle of a new piece of the university campus they&#x27;re building, they want to use a 35 foot flag pole, instead of a 25 foot flag pole. Look at all the paperwork that generated:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cityview.ci.bend.or.us&#x2F;Portal&#x2F;Planning&#x2F;StatusReference?referenceNumber=PLVAR20210113" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cityview.ci.bend.or.us&#x2F;Portal&#x2F;Planning&#x2F;StatusReferen...</a><p>Notices were put up, letters mailed, comments sought (I wrote in, in favor!).<p>All of that for a flagpole with a US flag right in the middle of the property.
missedthecue大约 4 年前
I think it&#x27;s interesting how over time, prices for goods have gone through the floor for many things (food, electronics, clothing, even automobiles, etc...) but prices for services have gone parabolic.<p>Construction, education, and healthcare costs have risen <i>well</i> above CPI for several decades, not just in the US, but in most developed countries.
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sillyquiet大约 4 年前
Tangential, and not a comment on the linked report, but it&#x27;s interesting to see discussion of a multi-faceted complex problem, if you want to call it that.<p>Everybody seems to pick out the pieces that confirms their personal opinions about What&#x27;s Wrong With America, where the truth in almost all cases is &#x27;sorta, but it&#x27;s more complicated and nuanced than that&#x27;.
geodel大约 4 年前
The reasons in this report are like root cause analysis of failures in big companies. They are not usually false but still kinda bullshitty and rarely enlightening on why things happen the way they happen.<p>Simply saying that 6 billion dollar project will cost 400 million in Europe so a wastage of 5.6 billion is hilarious until they give detail breakdown of costs. Maybe they can come out and say all american companies, government authorities, public, politician&#x2F; political system are dumb or just corrupt. For now I will just say they are just repeating lazy, half-assed cliches and presenting it like a report.<p>From this report :<p>&quot;Building back flexibly requires empowering low- and mid-level civil servants to work flexibly and at arms-length with private contractors.&quot;<p>What does this even mean?<p>Should they work closely? from far to maintain impartiality? just give them verbal directions with no written record to move fast? Or it is just put all good sounding words with no cohesive meaning at all.
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fungiblecog大约 4 年前
Because when your entire culture is based around the idea that making as much money as possible is a virtue greater than all others, there will be plenty of people breaking your systems in order to make as much money as possible.
santiagobasulto大约 4 年前
The paper is VERY interesting, but oh boy, how bad is that first visualization... <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;8P7Sqop" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;8P7Sqop</a><p>It doesn&#x27;t include units in the axes and the labels are just centered there. And what do those dots even represent?
williamsmj大约 4 年前
&quot;The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth: How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York&quot; (2017) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;28&#x2F;nyregion&#x2F;new-york-subway-construction-costs.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;28&#x2F;nyregion&#x2F;new-york-subway-...</a>
munk-a大约 4 年前
Quality Assurance is also a pretty big cost along with labor and materials. The cost of living in America isn&#x27;t cheap and the materials you&#x27;re working with (due to their size and weight) were likely manufactured domestically or, if not, were handled domestically during import.<p>America is also super litigious but I don&#x27;t believe that contributes significantly to <i>public</i> works due to the limits on state and federal liability.
m0llusk大约 4 年前
Much interesting analysis, but some strange mistakes as well. When NYC&#x27;s Second Avenue was first proposed it was concluded that such a project was possible but would be far too complex and expensive to be reasonable. Over the next hundred years the Second Avenue Subway in NYC would be repeatedly proposed, analyzed, and then rejected as too complex and expensive to make sense. Finally the work went ahead and as usual this analysis claims that this was just another infrastructure project and that despite one hundred years of analysis revealing the extreme complexity and cost this paper claims that the work could have been done cheaply with cut and cover construction despite a hundred years of analysis rejecting the possibility of cheap and easy construction of the Second Avenue subway. Rejecting so much history seems like an awkward way of going about this analysis.
cs702大约 4 年前
&gt; The difference in costs often boils down to domestic state capacity: bureaucracies in East Asia and Continental Europe tend to be better-staffed and more empowered to make professional decisions. The details are naturally more complicated, but the pattern is nonetheless clear: the countries with the lowest infrastructure costs are also the countries where the state acts swiftly, with mechanisms that limit the lag between financing and construction.<p>In other words, states with bigger <i>and better-run</i> governments have lower infrastructure costs.
stretchwithme大约 4 年前
Compared to what other countries?<p>I think a lot of waste and corruption is due to winner-take-all elections. A representative that represents one party has to answer to that party. If he does not represent its interests, they will elect someone else next time.<p>In winner-take-all elections, you vote for your least worst option and representing one perspective doesn&#x27;t as matter as much. It&#x27;s easier to sell your vote to lobbyists.<p>But people are convinced that our elections were implemented in the best possible way, so there is a reluctance to even weigh the options.
austincheney大约 4 年前
So common are absurd freeway interchanges in Texas that we have a local term for them: <i>mixmaster</i>. If you search Google for that term you get results for the only interchanges Wikipedia knows of in Texas, both in Dallas. One of those is the only 5 level interchange I can find on Google:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;High_Five_Interchange" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;High_Five_Interchange</a><p>Ironically, though, the largest freeway interchange in the DFW area, actually 3 almost conjoined separate interchanges occupying a tremendous land area, is only 3 levels near the DFW airport north entrance. At the widest the freeway there is 7 lanes each way, plus 2 lanes of toll each way in the center for a total of 17 to 18 lanes of traffic. Yes, it still gets gridlock. You can see it here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;maps&#x2F;@32.93809,-97.0628477,4001m&#x2F;data=!3m1!1e3" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;maps&#x2F;@32.93809,-97.0628477,4001m&#x2F;data...</a>
DonnyV大约 4 年前
Multiple issues and its actually not labor. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pedestrianobservations.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;why-american-costs-are-so-high-work-in-progress&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pedestrianobservations.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;03&#x2F;03&#x2F;why-american-c...</a>
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dang大约 4 年前
We changed the URL from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.niskanencenter.org&#x2F;report-so-you-want-to-do-an-infrastructure-project&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.niskanencenter.org&#x2F;report-so-you-want-to-do-an-i...</a> to the actual report.<p>We also changed the submitted title (&#x27;Why is American infrastructure so expensive?&#x27;) to the actual title. Note the site guideline: &quot;<i>Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don&#x27;t editorialize.</i>&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a>
ralusek大约 4 年前
&gt; bureaucracies in East Asia and Continental Europe tend to be better-staffed and more empowered to make professional decisions<p>The key word here is &quot;more empowered.&quot; If the state could just say &quot;okay we&#x27;re transplanting all of the people that live here out of the way so that we can put up a hyperloop, and these are the people who are going to do it, and we&#x27;ll pay them this much...&quot; infrastructure would move a lot faster, for much less money.<p>Because the US government tends to have far less authority over its citizens than Europe, and especially Asia, it has many free-marketish half measures that create the worst of all possible outcomes. Because the US has to pretend to be market-driven, by allowing private companies and unions to bid on projects, as well as offer people fair market values for their properties in the way of infrastructure, you get all sorts of problems. The main one is that the government is not a normal buyer, and completely throws most markets out of whack. Just look at the &quot;cost plus&quot; sort of funding schemes that have existed in aerospace contracts for decades, a concept that would never in a million years have existed in the free market.<p>I&#x27;m not saying that the European or Asian models are better, there are definite benefits to the liberties afforded to Americans...but it is without question far worse if the objective is timely and affordable infrastructure.
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markus_zhang大约 4 年前
Don&#x27;t know anything about American infrastructure but knows a bit about Canadian ones, or to be more precise, Quebec ones.<p>In short: Corruption.
raffraffraff大约 4 年前
Man, was I confused. I thought this was going to be about Terraform or building RPMs or something.
TomSwirly大约 4 年前
Graft! Corruption! Why can&#x27;t these papers even breathe these words?
megiddo大约 4 年前
Monopsony
arkh大约 4 年前
Because no one has to gain from low prices. Not the people getting the contracts, not the politicians and their committee getting back donations, not the neighborhood associations suing to get compensation.<p>That&#x27;s why they want the money coming from the federal level even if it&#x27;s just for some state infrastructure: the more &quot;fly-over&quot; state people pay for some SV vanity train line, the better.
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dnprock大约 4 年前
I follow cryptocurrency and they usually say: Bitcoin Fixes This. It sounds pretty silly. Bitcoin hasn&#x27;t really fixed anything. It&#x27;s just a generalization. But the motto draws attention to the cause of many problems in America: the US Dollar monetary system. The Dollar&#x27;s reserve currency status causes other countries to flood the US with goods in exchange for the currency. It causes trade balances.<p>The US over time loses its manufacturing and tooling capabilities. Most infrastructure work is custom. You can&#x27;t build a bridge overseas, ship, and install it in the US. You can build the parts overseas. But it&#x27;ll take a lot more time and resources to design and assemble them into a bridge in the US. So the final cost ends up being more.<p>I live in a neighborhood built in the 1980s. Up the hill, there are neighborhoods built in the 1990s and 2000s. After 2000s, houses look pretty much the same. The houses are more expensive. But the amount of custom design decreases over time. It&#x27;s got more and more expensive to build custom things in the US.<p>I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s possible to fix these infrastructure costs until we can fix the monetary policy. I think a new crypto system can provide a solution to this problem. Until then, we&#x27;re stuck with cheap and unnecessary goods while our infrastructure is slowly deteriorating.