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Abolish High School (2015)

189 点作者 johntfella大约 4 年前

45 条评论

mapgrep大约 4 年前
This article is a good platform for a series of solid specific observations. I particularly liked this one toward the end:<p>“ It could mean compressing the time teenagers have to sort out their hierarchies and pillory outsiders, by turning schools into minimalist places in which people only study and learn. All the elaborate rites of dances and games could take place under other auspices. (Many Europeans and Asians I’ve spoken to went to classes each day and then left school to do other things with other people, forgoing the elaborate excess of extracurricular activities that is found at American schools.)”<p>Hallelujah. End the role of high school as a monolith for teen life.<p>I also liked the call for more fluid stratification of students:<p>“ It could mean schools in which age segregation is not so strict, where a twelve-year-old might mentor a seven-year-old and be mentored by a seventeen-year-old; schools in which internships, apprenticeships, and other programs would let older students transition into the adult world before senior year. ”<p>This all essentially boils down to “freedom.” Meaning also flexibility and choice. For all the expectations piled on high school students they are given very little agency.
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burlesona大约 4 年前
This really resonates for me. High school was a colossal waste of time, and a very unhealthy environment, that I think made me a worse person for a time.<p>I’ve been thinking a lot about how to help my kids skip high school, but I don’t quite know how to do it.<p>As the author, I don’t think that it should be banned, but I agree that kids should not be forced to attend. If anything, merely removing the mandate might make the experience of those who stay a lot better. For me a lot of the stress came from the hostility and bullying that the kids who <i>did not want to be there</i> inflicted on anyone who dared to show interest in class, ask questions, or, <i>gasp</i>, pass classes.<p>Has anyone found an alternative path for their kids to avoid high school, and if so how did it go?
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MattGaiser大约 4 年前
A couple of years ago I got an honourable mention in an essay competition on school shootings and in it I discussed how schools are the one place in most people&#x27;s lives that they have no power to escape. [0]<p>You can quit a crappy job. You can transfer to a different university. You can ghost your friends. In nearly every social system after high school, there is some measure of self selection. But you have no power to extract yourself from that environment unless your parents are willing to send you to private school or move.<p>I am not sure there is a need to abolish high school, but rather just provide additional resolutions for those for whom it is a very poor fit and better clamp down on those who want to harm others in the ecosystem. Schools handle edge cases very poorly and they do an even worse job of managing those who wish to do harm.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.psychological-observations.com&#x2F;918-jmh-international-essays-on-the-psychology-of-anger-and-or-violence&#x2F;jmh-international-prize-essay-contest-2016&#x2F;358-jmh-2016-essay-6" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.psychological-observations.com&#x2F;918-jmh-internatio...</a>
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rossnordby大约 4 年前
I&#x27;ve wondered about how well something like this would work:<p>1. Schools open early and accept students as early as they do now, but classes start around noon and extend to 4-6 PM. Students are not required to arrive early; the school opens early to provide a safe place and schedule flexibility for parents and buses.<p>2. Breakfast and lunch are offered to ensure food security.<p>3. Every student has 5+ hours of 1:1 or small group tutoring weekly. This is where the bulk of educator funding would likely end up.<p>4. Open format &quot;study hall&quot; periods with staff available to assist.<p>5. No homework; personal exercises are handled in study hall.<p>6. For any lecture format material, provide high quality centrally produced media. On premise educators focus <i>most</i> of their time on interaction and adapting to where the students are.<p>7. Much less age stratification; progress through class content would be heavily individualized by the 1:1 and small group interaction.<p>8. Unprison the experience- you can go to the bathroom or eat a snack, or even leave.<p>This reuses of all existing infrastructure, reorganizes educator hours into what is (as far as I know) a more effective structure, reduces required student time, and seems like this should fit in the current budgets (which are around the $12000&#x2F;year&#x2F;pupil averaged over the US).<p>And, critically, this doesn&#x27;t force teenagers with delayed circadian rhythms to wake up at 5:45 AM to catch the bus. I&#x27;m pretty sure if you changed <i>nothing</i> else and just had high school run from noon to 4PM, you&#x27;d have a transformative improvement in outcomes even though the total number of hours would be significantly reduced.
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Zababa大约 4 年前
I&#x27;ve had to change school a few times due to bullying. Thus my experience was the opposite: the worst bullying I endured was when I was between 9 and 12 years old. High school was mostly fine, and most of the people that I met were fine, although I had to deal with a bit of homophobia.<p>It&#x27;s impressive how adults reject the fault of bullying on the victim. I had to not react, to learn to ignore the bullies, as if they were some hurricane and had no control over their own actions.<p>Compared to this, university was a breath of fresh air. I could mostly choose to not go to class, the site was completely open to the exterior, teachers were ready to help people in need and left alone people that wanted to be left alone.<p>I&#x27;ve preferred talking to older people most of my life, so I find the idea of the author of multi-generational groups appealing. Maybe don&#x27;t remove high school, but at least leave the option for people that don&#x27;t work like most other people that seem to enjoy high school. Also, have zero tolerance for bullying. When the thing you learn in school is that there&#x27;s no justice and you can&#x27;t count on people supposed to protect you, it&#x27;s a bit hard to be mentally healthy after.
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dalbasal大约 4 年前
My younger cousin attended a small, alternative, mixed age high school. It seemed quite pleasant. Students interacted with teachers like they would with parents&#x27; friends. They&#x27;d make themselves a cuppa and chat like regular people during breaks. The social dynamic of mixed age groups was notably unschoolish too. I had hated school, so I was quite impressed.<p>I&#x27;m inclined to think that a lot what we think of as how schools are, socially is a product of age segregation. Narcissism of Small Differences comes to mind.<p>That said, I don&#x27;t think there is a single solution for all. The reality is that a lot of kids have a very rough time at schools for a lot of reasons, and we consistently underestimate <i>how</i> bad that can be.<p>Another point stood out to me here: &quot;<i>High school is often considered a definitive American experience....</i>&quot;<p>Besides high school, this could be college relationships, marriage, motherhood, sex life, career, etc. Our idealisations often seem to oppress us. When life doesn&#x27;t live up to 90210, or Hackers and Painters, or Sex in The City... its an unbearable failure.<p>IDK what the solutions are. Ideals are inspiring as well as oppressive. I think with &quot;psychology&quot; broadly, it isn&#x27;t always necessary to deal with every problem head on. Healthier relationships, decrease the risk of drug addiction, for example. We need healthier schools, broadly.
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bradlys大约 4 年前
I think having alternatives to high school is good.<p>That said, I’ve experienced what happens when high schoolers infiltrate the community colleges - it feels like high school all over again. A bit better, sure. But the level of immaturity and the disruptions are very similar. God help you if you get a group project with 15 year olds.<p>Ultimately, there are many people at a young age who have no interests in being a part of the type of society that has been around for the last 30-40 years. And they are a sizable portion of youths. Nihilism (in many forms...) is strong at that age and so is the lack of interest in hard work. Ultimately, what do you do for those kids for them to be happy? UBI would really be the only thing... That’s the only way you could get these counter-culture kids who are more focused on disruption out.<p>Also, most kids who are problematic in school tend to have problematic parents. Trickles down real well that stuff.
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ashleyn大约 4 年前
The older I get, the more I realise &quot;high school&quot; wasn&#x27;t really the problem at all. High school, like any other government institution, is ultimately a reflection of the values of the people who run them. And in some places - those values aren&#x27;t necessarily the best.
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notdang大约 4 年前
I grew up in a poor country with a lot of problems, however it gave me an extremely decent education up to the high school. My parents wouldn&#x27;t have been able to do it alone.<p>So no, for me and my peers abolishing the high school wouldn&#x27;t have been an option.
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akuro大约 4 年前
I went into high school as a curious kid who loved reading and enjoyed opportunities to be creative. I left high school as a nervous wreck who was terrified to apply myself in any academic situation because I&#x27;d been mocked so much - by teachers and students alike - for various failures.<p>It took me eight years to break out of that mindset, but I&#x27;m now doing well. In fact, my job makes heavy use of the subject that I was most afraid of due to my high school experience: mathematics. The process of becoming confident in mathematical problem solving and working through my considerable personal mental hangups was a dreadful experience. Many or even most people do not break out from the hang-ups they learn during high school, especially with mathematics.<p>EI have nothing but animosity for the high school system and would welcome any change that makes it less prominent in the lives of teens and young adults. I&#x27;d say that a college module system like that which the OP describes is a vastly superior alternative. I think that intellectual life and social life should be separated as much as possible, which I believe is for the most part the default setting in most universities.
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hardwaregeek大约 4 年前
I don’t agree with everything in the article but I really liked the age segregation point. It’s incredible how much we drill into people’s heads that students need to be the same age. Why? We’ve all known 9th graders more mature, whether academically or personally, than 12th graders. And there’s so many students shunted off to college way before they’re ready out of fear of “falling behind”. I’ve taken two gap years at this point, one after high school and one this past year due to covid. So yes, I’ve “fallen behind” my classmates. I’ve also gotten work experience, significantly improved my mental health and traveled. And oh no, I’m so late for what? Joining the workforce? Who cares? I’m probably gonna be working for 40 years. Two years isn&#x27;t going to make a difference.
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birktj大约 4 年前
In Norway you get to choose your high school after middle school, all the pupils in a region is ranked solely based on their grades from middle school and for the ones who are sick of books they can go to a more trade-oriented high school (training to become a mechanic, electrician, etc). Obviously it is not perfect and in the district the choices can be quite limited, but it definitely prevents the stereotypical American high school.<p>Taking my school as an example it was pretty much filled with nerds, many being active in politics, math competitions, etc. I remember very well it being the first time no-one in the class wanted to do football in PE.<p>Some people criticize it for being worse for the students who don&#x27;t do well in middle school and end up with very little choices and also separating stronger students. But for the stronger students it so nice with everybody being at least somewhat interested in learning and the teachers being very relaxed.
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BlackVanilla大约 4 年前
I recently found out about Summit Public Schools. By the sounds of it, this model aims to provide students with more autonomy than they would in a normal school. There is an emphasis on self-directed learning and teachers act more as mentors than lecturers. If your metric to measure success is admission to unviersity, it works! They claim 98% of their students are accepted onto 4-year courses and have twice the graduation rate relative to the US average. [1] Even if that isn&#x27;t your metric for success (there are good reasons why it shouldn&#x27;t be) it at least demonstrates ability.<p>Perhaps this is a good bridge between school and homeschooling as we know it. I&#x27;m sure you can tell from reading this that I only have surface-level understanding, so I&#x27;d be interested to hear from anybody who knows more about these schools or other schools that do similar things. Or indeed anybody who wants to shake up education&#x2F;has some good ideas!<p>You can read more here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;summitps.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;summitps.org&#x2F;</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;summitps.org&#x2F;the-summit-model&#x2F;our-results&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;summitps.org&#x2F;the-summit-model&#x2F;our-results&#x2F;</a>
fsckboy大约 4 年前
fyi&#x2F;point of interest, the author, Rebecca Solnit, is essentially the originator of the &quot;mansplaining&quot; concept. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;03&#x2F;06&#x2F;books&#x2F;review&#x2F;recollections-of-my-nonexistence-rebecca-solnit.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;03&#x2F;06&#x2F;books&#x2F;review&#x2F;recollection...</a><p>I have previously read up on that and her original exemplar story and I don&#x27;t think she was as insightful about herself and her own role in that moment as she was about the guy mansplaining to her, but still, she definitely had her finger on the pulse of a cultural phenomenon.
HDMI_Cable大约 4 年前
High school seems like a highly personalized experience. Reading most of these comments, one would expect that high school is a form of punishment. For me, and most people I know however, high school was a deeply positive experience. I don&#x27;t know how&#x2F;if schooling needs to be fixed, but one thing that strikes me is the <i>range</i> in experiences.<p>I guess one part of it is that people who have had an overall good experience (or even a mediocre one) are less likely to talk about it. I wonder what percentage of people truly hated high school.
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donatj大约 4 年前
I have been saying since I was in high school in the late-90s&#x2F;early-2000s that there’s isn’t enough being said and done about actually figuring out what about modern high school incites so much violence, and not just the deadly kind. All the energy goes into locking kids down more, controlling their lives, and doesn’t actually cure the disease.<p>In my fifteen years of office work, the worst I have encountered is a single shouting match between a developer and his boss. The developer started it, and ended up finding a new job within the week. Contrast that with my four years of high school where I was physically assaulted at least twice, and encountered fights almost weekly.<p>I didn’t have the luxury of consensual association with that institution. I couldn’t just leave if things took a turn. I think imposing so much inescapable structure can cause certain types of kids to lash-out like a trapped animal, because in an entirely literal sense they are. I certainly felt very trapped myself in a very real sense.<p>Having talked with teachers and administrators about this, they can’t seem to fathom what I am saying. I think it comes down to educational work having a self selection for people who thrive in such a structured environment. Many of them having never experienced anything else, going straight from college into teaching.
gbronner大约 4 年前
I went to a school with no letter grades, and skipped a year. Our school used to copy the nyt crossword puzzle, and it was considered ok to work on it in lieu of paying attention. Some teachers would simply tell me not to bother showing up, and I managed to get credit for a number of classes without going by simply convincing my teachers that I&#x27;d read the book and understood the material.<p>For autodidactic people such as the myself and presumably the author, this was great. Many of my classmates required more structured experiences, and I don&#x27;t think this model works for most people. Abolishing high school is nice for the people who read hacker news, but probably wouldn&#x27;t work for the vast majority of students
endisneigh大约 4 年前
This is a poorly researched article. I won&#x27;t bother critiquing every part, but I&#x27;ll get to the meat:<p>&gt; Abolishing high school could mean many things. It could mean compressing the time teenagers have to sort out their hierarchies and pillory outsiders, by turning schools into minimalist places in which people only study and learn.<p>This is impossible to begin with. Any institution that has more than a single individual will naturally result in stratification and hierarchies. Any student who doesn&#x27;t want to go to high school can already do so by opting into home schooling if their parents agree and support that (and can provide resources).<p>Furthermore, how exactly would you only &quot;study and learn?&quot; the author hardly gives proper examples of any of their ambitious ideas.<p>&gt; All the elaborate rites of dances and games could take place under other auspices. (Many Europeans and Asians I’ve spoken to went to classes each day and then left school to do other things with other people, forgoing the elaborate excess of extracurricular activities that is found at American schools.)<p>The article handwaves how exactly you would replace all of the non academic portions of high school by vaguely mentioning anecdotes.<p>&gt; It could mean schools in which age segregation is not so strict, where a twelve-year-old might mentor a seven-year-old and be mentored by a seventeen-year-old; schools in which internships, apprenticeships, and other programs would let older students transition into the adult world before senior year. (Again, there are plenty of precedents from around the world.)<p>The author doesn&#x27;t bother to even explain why this would be beneficial, and what the potential downsides could be. Though I am personally a supporter of mixed-age classrooms, some research has shown it&#x27;s not good (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.3102&#x2F;00346543066003307" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.3102&#x2F;003465430660033...</a>).<p>Interestingly many people who have poor social skills wish to avoid people, but in reality that just delays the inevitable poor encounters you will have with others. What&#x27;s better is to teach people to have good social skills. It&#x27;s a shame that schools don&#x27;t explicitly do this. The author also seems to conveniently ignore the extreme differences between people during high school age.<p>Per the authors own definition high school has already been &quot;abolished&quot; as all of the things they speak of are already possible.
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mixmastamyk大约 4 年前
Why doesn&#x27;t significant punishment of bullies ever seem to be an option? To the extent that any other possible idea is entertained first?<p>I personally learned a lot in high school, though I took the harder AP classes.
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cupcake-unicorn大约 4 年前
I was an undiagnosed autistic growing up and I begged my parents to homeschool me. Thankfully my two best friends were already doing so and we were in a liberal area where we could make this happen and my parents (less so my dad) were reasonably open to it. His main objection, &quot;You&#x27;ll never get into college&quot; was put to rest when I found data showing that being a homeschooler puts you in a smaller pool than &quot;Random highschool grad&quot; and college admissions people are smart enough to keep an eye out for home schoolers, so in all my chances actually went up. I don&#x27;t have my GED but I do have a BA which broke German bureaucracy when I went over there to continue studies.<p>Anyway grade school was tough enough for me and I very much believe that I would have ended up hospitalized or suicidal&#x2F;dead had I gone through highschool. Giving options to children who are non neurotypical (I don&#x27;t envy ADHD kids) and suffer from behavioral issues is crucial. A lot of people without these problems have very serious psychological scarring from high school so put a kid suffering more challenges in the mix and it becomes clear what you&#x27;re dealing with.<p>I was able to study what I wanted, at the level that was appropriate for me, on my own time. I ended up taking a number of distance learning classes as well as community college classes and got college credits for them. I was really held back in middle school with this. A lot of people ask &quot;weren&#x27;t you lonely&quot; but I didn&#x27;t have anything in common with most other kids and the school environment was toxic and overstimulating to me. I hate that people&#x27;s knee jerk reaction is &quot;You must have been soo lonely&quot; and it really shows you the truth about high school honestly..it&#x27;s NOT about learning..it&#x27;s almost some hazing ritual that people are stockholm syndrome&#x27;d into.<p>I don&#x27;t have the link now but I saw some surveys and it&#x27;s something like 99% of home schooled students wouldn&#x27;t take it back for the world.
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karaterobot大约 4 年前
The author says that high school teaches conformity and alienation, and can &quot;flatten your soul&quot;, and then shortly afterwards suggests getting kids into the job market sooner might be a solution for this. Ha ha, good luck with that.
ardit33大约 4 年前
My experience with the american HS has been great. I went in Halifax County High, in rural Virginia, in the late 90s. It is rated 5.5&#x2F;10, so average school I guess and it was racially diverse.<p>I attended it as an exchange student, (From Albania), from my senior year. I took mostly AP classes, and they were pretty good, as the average student was very&#x2F;well motivated. They were smart and most went to good colleges after it. I got the chance to advance many of my skills, computer wise, and even took programming, which was great as it cemented my desire to pursue CS. (Pascal was the language being taught in 99). Things like AP physics and biology&#x2F;chemistry were way behind my Albanian education. I can&#x27;t image what Gen Ed physics would look like. (probably comparable to middle school level in former commie Europe). AP Calc, was challenging and on par with former communist country education (but very few people take those classes).<p>Gen. Ed classes, (the ones where average people take) were a mixed bag, as they had plenty of students that clearly didn&#x27;t want to be there, and just wanted a pass grade and move on.<p>I also got to join the soccer team and I loved it. Made lots of friends, never got into a fight (perhaps because I was the only foreign student, and people were super friendly), went to the prom, and all that. Became friends with the popular&#x2F;&#x27;in&#x27; group of girls, had a gf., etc... It was something like out of the movies.<p>For me it was a great experience, and it really really depends on how you use it. If you take mostly AP classes, or participate in sports, it is a great thing. If you take the gen. ed classes, you will end up in classes that are designed more to just teach the bare minimum, as most students there don&#x27;t have any interest in being there to begin with.<p>The trend of reducing AP classes in the name of &#x27;equity&#x27; is very troubling, as it remove the chances of smart students to have a stimulating environment, and let them learn at their faster pace.
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Animats大约 4 年前
This is more about growing up gay than about high school, as is clear if you read other writing by the same author. This is a smart, frustrated writer. It&#x27;s not about picking the students that won&#x27;t benefit from more education and sending them off to vocational training, then the fields and mines, as was normal until the mid-20th century.<p>The UK did that explicitly until 1976, with the &quot;Eleven-Plus&quot; exam.[1] Many areas of the US did it, but this varied locally.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eleven-plus" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eleven-plus</a>
StephenSmith大约 4 年前
Shout out to The North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, of which several states have sister schools. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncssm.edu&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncssm.edu&#x2F;</a><p>Quick summary, it&#x27;s a public, boarding school that you apply to that has almost every AP course you can think of plus courses beyond AP. Pre-college essentially.<p>I was able to skip two years of an engineering degree by attending.<p>It&#x27;s not a perfect solution, but it offers a way for students who are ready for college early to transition sooner. It also gives the state an excuse to not offer AP in every county, they can just point to NCSSM as an option.
rufus_foreman大约 4 年前
I dropped out of high school when I was 16, winter of 1986. Happiest day of my life.
schoolgown大约 4 年前
From another perspective, I am a current high school student trying to decide on a future path. While I also think high school is a waste of time that I don&#x27;t learn much from, I&#x27;m not sure that the other options are actually better, at least for my personal goal of attending selective colleges after high school.<p>I will become eligible for a dual-enrollment program at local community colleges soon, where students get a 2-year associate degree and high school diploma at the same time. This includes the option to take classes at the college full-time, effectively never actually attending the high school. However, from what I&#x27;ve seen, choosing this path instead of AP courses reflects negatively on the student when applying to selective colleges. It seems best suited for completing a 4-year degree at an in-state university after high school. While this minimizes the time spent in education, I&#x27;m not sure it&#x27;s the best option if my goal is to get the best possible education (i.e. including post-secondary). It also poses a logistical challenge due to lack of transportation to and from the college.<p>On the other hand, the practice of staying in high school and taking as many AP classes as possible does little for the social environment at the school. It helps appease college admissions officers, but it&#x27;s not an ideal solution either.
betwixthewires大约 4 年前
Well, I agree with the title, and some of the reasoning, but it doesn&#x27;t go far enough. I think school in general is stupid. It&#x27;s an extreme view, I know.<p>I think <i>education</i> is good. But that&#x27;s not what school is. Everything a kid learns in 13 years could he learned in 5, and then they leave missing very important skills. Many kids that graduate high school then choose to take on 5 to 6 figures in debt as their first financial decision of their lives, out of this weird pressure to know what they want to spend the rest of their lives doing, which they&#x27;re somehow expected to know after spending 13 of the previous 18 years of their lives having to ask permission to take a shit. In my opinion, school turns people, most of whom have amazing potential, into losers.<p>The major motivation to have a mandatory school system is to take productive adults who would spend a decade caring for 2 or 3 children and put them to work and outsource the rearing of their children to one professional child raiser per 30 or so kids. Very economical. But it is hell on our kids, and hell on our civics.<p>5 years. That&#x27;s all it takes to learn what you need to know in school. Reading, writing, some literature, arithmetic geometry and algebra, basic physics, chemistry and biology, some domestic history and civics and some world history, then toss in a bit about how to handle finances and you&#x27;re done. 5 years. And that&#x27;s much more than we are requited to know within the 13 we spend right now.<p>And we can teach our own kids. And we should. If I can&#x27;t be trusted to teach my kid what I learned in school, what does that say about the school I went to?
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jonshariat大约 4 年前
American education is old and dated. So inefficient and does a lot of harm. There are plenty of great TED talks on this very subject as well. Will it change? It doesn&#x27;t seem anything major can change in the US with the current state of politics, but there are some options open to those parents with $ or a willingness to build their own education via the amazing quality resources online from top schools, creative teachers on YouTube, etc.
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MyHypatia大约 4 年前
Now I&#x27;m wondering if abolishing high schools will also make work places more tolerable. The complaints I personally have (and hear from others) about work often resemble the complaints about social dynamics in high school.<p>Basically, you have to do well enough in school&#x2F;job to keep the teacher&#x2F;boss happy. If you do too well your classmates&#x2F;coworkers resent you and start sabotaging you. If you really do too well and make the teacher&#x2F;boss feel unneeded they start sabotaging you as well to put you in your place.<p>In my experience the vast majority of people (adults and teenagers) are not introspective enough to recognize or admit when they start behaving in this destructive way. I started seeing this in high school and assumed that people would grow out of it. I now realize most people never grow out of this, and sabotage other people as a way to manage their insecurities. If I hadn&#x27;t started experiencing this in high school, I might have had a harder time recognizing it in the work place. On the other hand, maybe high school is training people to behave like this.
sdlion大约 4 年前
I went to a technical high school in Mexico. Here&#x27;s divided as 6 years of grade school, 3 of Middle school and 3 of High school.<p>After finishing this &quot;bachelor&quot; high school you get a technician degree. Mine was an electronics technician. And well, I met some of my best friends there and equals even when most of them went to different majors in college.<p>I think is great when you can get specialized subjects in such environment since people with similar interests can interact between them more easily.<p>Granted, there were bullied people, others that just wouldn&#x27;t fit, but for the most of us (on classrooms over 40 students) we went along fine.<p>And certainly I felt it a better environment than middle school (12-15yo). Friends that really didn&#x27;t like it, weren&#x27;t that interested in electronics or science, but still we got along.<p>But well, in the end, Mexico is a place where we care about our relationships. Maybe too much.<p>I don&#x27;t think the concept of high school is wrong. On any country contacts are important and usually change your life, and any social hub in life is a chance. It&#x27;s just that, environment and motivation matters.
noobermin大约 4 年前
Surprised to see this with a discussion of age stratification. It&#x27;s so ingrained into American culture now that being friends with someone of a different age either carries pedophilic insinuation or assume the younger is above the AOC, some nearly related sexual fetish (MILF,DILF,etc). It&#x27;s not like especially if someone is very young or very old they can be on the same level maturity wise but at least in my personal life friends who were much older than me have always been enriching probably because they can offer life advice I wouldn&#x27;t otherwise have. The age stratification in general feels like a piece of a more general trend in America where people in general are closing off from others, in this case, their families in fear of essentially anyone who could be a sexual predator in their minds.<p>Kind of an aside but back on topic, high school honestly fits into this, a place your kids can go and be safe while you work, which is essentially how it functions.
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nate_meurer大约 4 年前
&gt; <i>By artificially creating social units in which everyone is the same age, the ability of children to help and to learn from each other is greatly reduced</i><p>Also, given the huge variation in the ages of puberty and rates at which kids develop, it makes perfect sense that kids would find peers in a variety of age groups.<p>My daughters are homeschooled, and have thus been free to form their own social groups from scratch, and they both gravitate toward age groups not their own. My eldest (high school) hangs out mostly with girls several years her senior, but in their weekly in-person enrichment program she chooses to spend most of her time with the little kids, as sort of a teachers assistant. She doesn&#x27;t exactly know why, but it&#x27;s clear that the both the older peers and the little guys feed her soul.<p>She has relatively little interaction with kids in her own grade, and if she were forced to it would clearly rob her of something very important.
esturk大约 4 年前
After looking up the author&#x27;s background, it appears she accomplished this in California back in the 70s.<p>I&#x27;m not sure if this is still possible because the minimum age to take the GED in CA is now at 18+. The alternative to that is to take the California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE) which requires a minimum age of 16+.
dang大约 4 年前
Past thread related via title (but not article):<p><i>Let&#x27;s Abolish High School</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=756407" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=756407</a> - Aug 2009 (113 comments)
sytelus大约 4 年前
This is extra-ordinarily negligent article. TLDR; author was transffered from junion high to &quot;alternative high school&quot; where district dumped insubordinate students. In author&#x27;s own experience, it was completely dysfunctional environment. He says teenage girls there dated drug dealers. Author was apparently hard working so he survived and went to college nonetheless. I doubt his peers had same fate. But now he proposes that all high schools should be obolished because he turned out all ok.
staticassertion大约 4 年前
In the 5 years that I was enrolled in high school I likely attended considerably less than most others do in their 4 years. Instead, I skipped classes and walked around NYC. Sometimes I&#x27;d go to the Hudson river and read - sometimes books for school, or sometimes books I&#x27;d picked up myself. I&#x27;d go to Barnes and Nobles sometimes, the big one in Union Square, and sit and read. I was really into physics back then so I&#x27;d grab some pop physics book and dig into it. One class I enjoyed had us read Pere Goriot, which I loved, and kicked off a &#x27;sit on the Hudson with some Balzac&#x27; phase.<p>And of course sometimes I&#x27;d play video games or sleep in, or just try to relax. I&#x27;m not going to pretend that there wasn&#x27;t a lot of leisure in there, and I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s a bad thing at all.<p>When I did go to school I was pretty social. I skipped class, chilled in various places and hung out with people. I went to classes that I thought were fun if I wanted to, but usually that would become too annoying to schedule around the classes I had no interest in, so I&#x27;d fall behind in the good ones and kinda throw the baby out with the bathwater.<p>I never really experienced bullying, and the schools I went to were pretty good about that sort of thing. Still, I did witness it - there&#x27;s no school I&#x27;ve seen that doesn&#x27;t have a &quot;weird kid&quot; who people tease.<p>I found the article&#x27;s focus on that interesting, because I hadn&#x27;t considered it. High school added tons of anxiety to my life because being truant is actually not that easy to pull off, and is something where the government at some point gets involved. I was absolutely labeled as lazy and written off by many, which I think anyone who knows me today would laugh at, since I&#x27;m a CEO and work constantly.<p>For those who were actually different enough to be bullied I can&#x27;t even really imagine what that must have been like. And we tell kids &quot;high school ends eventually&quot;, but it&#x27;s 4 years of your life in misery, critical, developmental years, and instead of asking what the fuck we&#x27;re doing we just tell them &quot;it&#x27;ll be over soon&quot; where &quot;soon&quot; is not at all soon.<p>What high school gave me was a place to meet people my age, to pick up some interesting books and knowledge (I&#x27;d sometimes meet with teachers after class to discuss or trade books), and really, primarily, to date and get a lot of social experience. To me, everything else was to the detriment of my life. I greatly resent much of what was imposed on me, I feel more strongly than ever at this stage in my life that high school was an unjustified, gross burden that made learning harder for me than it should have been.<p>Like the author I still support the idea of giving young people structured places to learn, but we need to seriously re-evaluate the goals. While many of my peers took on tons of debt, I thankfully was not accepted into any private university, instead starting my adult life with some odd jobs here or there before finally attending state school, where I dropped out after 5 semesters and began working as a software engineer.<p>All of high school for them was gearing up to this great thing, college, which now most of them associate with massive debt - some of them owing hundreds of thousands of dollars to this day.<p>It shouldn&#x27;t be hard to point at the system and go &quot;yeah that&#x27;s fucked up&quot;, but of course, I&#x27;m nearly 30 now and the pains of high school aren&#x27;t exactly top of mind.
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LatteLazy大约 4 年前
I always assumed US high schools were meant to make citizens hate tyranny via experiencing tyranny. On that basis they are actually 99% effective...
Invictus0大约 4 年前
If I had kids I would certainly not send them to high school. Are we so unimaginative to think that there is not a better way? I think roughly 12&#x2F;13 is the age we should start giving young people more autonomy in their education; they&#x27;re old enough to have learned how to take care of themselves as a human being and to start taking initiative and develop leadership skills.
29athrowaway大约 4 年前
High school is a moratorium for crime. Assault and battery are legal among students.<p>High school teachers can be toxic people, but that&#x27;s the only way in which they can deal with even more toxic students.<p>In many cases it&#x27;s just a place where parents can drop their kids while they&#x27;re at work. Nobody is learning anything.
hourislate大约 4 年前
The whole educational and professional training system is a very elaborate filter, which just weeds out people who are too independent, and who think for themselves, and who don&#x27;t know how to be submissive, and so on -- because they&#x27;re dysfunctional to the institutions.<p>-Noam Chomsky
Biganon大约 4 年前
Daisy Coleman committed suicide last year. Her mother killed herself a few months later. Meanwhile, her rapist is walking free, because daddy is powerful.
idoh大约 4 年前
Let&#x27;s not abolish it, but let&#x27;s provide some alternatives. If you can demonstrate some proficiency across the three Rs, then why does it matter if you go to high school or not?
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SneakyTornado29大约 4 年前
Flipped classroom structure :)
DataJunkie大约 4 年前
I enjoyed this read. Rant:<p>My mother was a teacher and she had to deal with a lot of political crap because she taught what was important (phonics) in Kindergarten during a time when schools were banishing phonics and preferred whole language (early to mid 1990s). That was just one of the things that drove my mom to retire from teaching, the BS from the ivory tower. I gained a rebellious streak towards the K-12 education system based on my own experience and seeing what she had to put up with. Her students and parents loved her.<p>Elementary school was a joke. Middle school was very formative to me. I learned a ton. I was bullied a ton, which didn&#x27;t help. Then I went to high school... Honors English? We read a few books that I don&#x27;t even remember, and spent the rest of the time playing... I kid you not... Charades. Things only got worse when the athletic coaches would teach the Honors classes. After a couple of years of this, I became a very mouthy kid frequently talking back to teachers. (Oddly enough, I rarely got in trouble for it.) Point being, they had one view of what a kid should be doing, and the buckets into which kids should fall. They also had no desire to deal with different learning styes. I would have absolutely loved to take advanced statistics, advanced writing or computer science in high school instead of wasting time trying to help the school district boost its standardized testing scores.<p>One of these teachers really had it out for me (a video production teacher). She told me I would be in prison by 20 because I had no respect for her. Add to that, my counselor convinced me my GPA was shit (3.6) and would be lucky to get into a Cal State (is that a bad thing?). My parents and I had enough. I withdrew and took the rest of my courses via mail and graduated a year early and in the meantime took community college classes. And guess what? I learned to love math. That happens when the instructor actually understands what they are teaching. This caused some problems with the UC system, but we were able to convince them that community college basically replaced my senior year.<p>And that video teacher? I eventually ran into her again, as she was advertising some high school media program at the community college. She said &quot;What a surprise to see you here!&quot; She had earlier tried to convince me that ITT Tech, Devry, etc. was more my style. I looked her straight in the eyes and said &quot;Go fck yourself, Nancy.&quot; It felt so cathartic telling her off. That Fall I started as a Freshman at UCLA.<p>Based on my experience, I am approving of parents choosing to do one of the following: 1) putting their kids in private school as a form a daycare. Private schools have the funds to offer tons of extracurriculars such as makerspaces for students to play around in. That&#x27;s important to me. Public schools do not have the resources to do this. And then get a tutor for the important subjects. Travel. Do educational trips. Don&#x27;t assume your children are learning anything in the classroom. 2) teach your kids that HS is a joke, and just get through it and don&#x27;t let any of the teachers put you down. Work hard and do the best you can. If it&#x27;s not working, get out. 3) Do some sort of personalized program (sometimes referred to as &quot;continuation school&quot; where you attend class or tutoring as needed, and the rest of the time is enrichment. Continuation school was always said to be the &quot;troublemakers.&quot; In my opinion, it&#x27;s those that refuse to accept the status quo, and perhaps do have some other issues that the comprehensive high school does not want to deal with, because God forbid these students actually act human. 4) test out, just know that some university systems will then require you to transfer instead of start as a Freshman.<p>University is totally different. I am proud of my public university education. I could not have asked for any more. I ended up going through to my Ph.D.<p>Now, as a university instructor, I try my best to not judge students and understand that their performance is but a snapshot of what they accomplished in a short period of time. Who am <i>I</i> to stop students from following their dreams? Who am <i>I</i> to make a judgment of their professional worth? I wish others would think the same way.
0xbadcafebee大约 4 年前
&gt; Abolishing high school could mean many things.<p>Then why not find a different word which does not literally mean &quot;To do away with; put an end to; annul. To destroy completely.&quot;<p>I hate it when a good idea gets derailed by a moronic slogan.