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Resistor Noise Can Be Deafening, and Hard to Reduce (2007)

260 点作者 bcaa7f3a8bbc将近 4 年前

25 条评论

klodolph将近 4 年前
My only experience with this is building and designing guitar amps, which often have 80dB of gain or more, a.k.a., a pain in the ass amount of gain to deal with. It&#x27;s not something on par with, say, radio astronomy, but it&#x27;s still a lot of gain to deal with.<p>Usually the main source of noise will be a 120Hz or 100Hz buzz, but with humbucking pickups and careful orientation of the guitar you can mostly eliminate that. The next source of noise will be a low-level white noise (sounds like a hiss), which is from the amplifier, and consists of a mixture of Johnson noise and shot noise.<p>In older amps you may hear a louder hiss&#x2F;crackle which is from old carbon comp resistors, which is an inferior type of resistor that produces additional noise through a different mechanism.<p>If you&#x27;re trying to record your guitar directly through a digital interface, you may run into clipping issues and have to enable the pad (a built-in attenuator). Unfortunately, my experience is that the pad often introduces an unacceptable amount of noise, and I believe that it&#x27;s just plain Johnson noise from a resistive divider.
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jbay808将近 4 年前
&gt; In fact, a remarkably common response to a diagnosis of resistor noise is to seek a source of &quot;good&quot; resistors, with &quot;good&quot; being defined as without thermal noise. This is impossible.<p>It&#x27;s impossible to make a totally noiseless resistor, but it&#x27;s also important to understand that all resistors are not created equal.<p>Most resistors have noise levels that are orders of magnitude above the Johnson limit. Potentiometers are especially bad.<p>If you want &quot;good&quot; resistors for noise-critical applications, I recommend metal thin-film resistors. They hardly cost any extra anyway.<p>Also, in cases where resistors are used to set DC signals such as offsets and biases, you can add capacitors to filter the heck out of those lines to decrease their noise contribution.
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bcaa7f3a8bbc将近 4 年前
Fun fact: for the most demanding RF applications, namely, radio astronomy, the front-end low-noise amplifiers are indeed cooled to cryogenic temperature by liquid nitrogen. Here&#x27;s how it&#x27;s done at NASA for the Deep Space Network [0]. It&#x27;s a long paper, see Chapter 4 <i>Cryogenic Refrigeration Systems</i>, PDF page 179 (text page 159). Also, nice photos in page 183 and 188.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;descanso.jpl.nasa.gov&#x2F;monograph&#x2F;series10&#x2F;Reid_DESCANSO_sml-110804.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;descanso.jpl.nasa.gov&#x2F;monograph&#x2F;series10&#x2F;Reid_DESCAN...</a>
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cryptonector将近 4 年前
&gt; And, of course, we can&#x27;t change Boltzmann&#x27;s Constant because Professor Boltzmann is dead[3].<p>Worth the read just for that punch line.
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lisper将近 4 年前
One of my first jobs, which I got while I was still an undergrad (in the mid-80s), was designing amplifiers for fiber-optic sensors. I pretty much had no clue what I was doing so I just started futzing around with op-amps and realized very quickly that my signal-to-noise-ratio was much higher than was acceptable. I figured there was some hardware design trick that they hadn&#x27;t taught me in my EE curriculum, but one day I decided to do the math on resistor noise and discovered that that was in fact my limiting factor and the only way were were going to get it to work was to either cool the first-stage resistor or to use a ridiculously high value because the gain goes up linearly with the resistor value but the noise only increases with the square root. We ended up with a ten gigaohm resistor, which was just enough to get the S&#x2F;N ration we needed to make it work.
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carapace将近 4 年前
Not really related (I think) but I was reading about &quot;an electrical resistor that has no residual mutual- or self-inductance at high frequencies.&quot;<p>The trick is to twist it into a Möbius strip!<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rexresearch.com&#x2F;davis&#x2F;davis.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rexresearch.com&#x2F;davis&#x2F;davis.htm</a>
fallingfrog将近 4 年前
I usually put a single 470 ohm resistor in line with the gate of a discrete jfet in common collector mode as the first gain stage in my projects. Once you boost up the signal voltage it’s way easier to maintain a good signal to noise ratio.<p>The resistor is there to prevent the jfet from being burned out by over voltage on the gate, which is very sensitive to static electricity. But, I can easily hear the difference if I put a 10k resistor there instead. It’s really important to get that first gain stage really, really quiet, a discrete jfet has a better noise floor than an op amp or a regular transistor.
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Unklejoe将近 4 年前
I was watching an interview with Tom Christiansen (he owns Neurochrome, a company that makes very high-end DIY amplifier designs&#x2F;kits, with THDs of 0.0001%).<p>He mentioned something about how resistor noise can actually track with the low frequency portions of the audio signal due to the resistor literally heating up and cooling down as the current through it varies. I thought that was interesting. I knew that noise was proportional to heat, but I didn&#x27;t realize the temperature could vary that quickly, but I guess it makes sense when you&#x27;re dealing with tiny parts. There are probably also localized hot spots that have less thermal mass than the entire resistor as a whole.<p>The interview is posted in this thread: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.audiosciencereview.com&#x2F;forum&#x2F;index.php?threads&#x2F;the-intellectual-people-podcast-tom-christiansen-of-neurochrome.19946&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.audiosciencereview.com&#x2F;forum&#x2F;index.php?threads&#x2F;t...</a>
cushychicken将近 4 年前
Chapter 8 of <i>The Art of Electronics, 3rd Edition</i> is a great resource on electrical noise. The first section is almost exclusively about resistors and noise budgeting. Fun read. I should get back to it at some point.<p>Lots of great tricks on bootstrapped filters, capacitive multipliers, precision transistor noise measurements with some outboard circuits fed into a spectrum analyzer.
mattkrause将近 4 年前
The last line got a good chuckle out of me!
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buescher将近 4 年前
And yet, there is such a thing as a low-noise resistor, because thermal noise is not the only resistor noise. This application note, also from Analog, explains: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.analog.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;en&#x2F;technical-documentation&#x2F;application-notes&#x2F;500824934643930414583807523874018494695982855668424783486554001060AN348.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.analog.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;en&#x2F;technical-documentation&#x2F;appl...</a>
OnlyOneCannolo将近 4 年前
They have a cool PDF cheat-sheet related to this which doesn&#x27;t seem to be linked from the page.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.analog.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;en&#x2F;selection-guides&#x2F;Equation_Pullout.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.analog.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;en&#x2F;selection-guides&#x2F;Equation_Pu...</a>
ChuckMcM将近 4 年前
I read it more like a whine &quot;don&#x27;t blame our opamps, they better than resistors&quot; :-) But it is something I&#x27;ve become much more familiar with building RF frontends for software defined radios. You want as much gain as you can get to pull in weak signals but keeping the whole thing noise quiet is really really hard.
pontifier将近 4 年前
Excellent article! I feel like I understand so much more about analog signals than I did before.<p>It seems very obvious now, that if you want to have a high signal to noise ratio, you should get as much signal as possible, and keep your signal voltage as high as possible as long as possible before amplification.<p>This fundamental resistor noise is something that I&#x27;m probably going to start seeing everywhere when I look at any analog signals, and will have to take into account when designing things.
ng55QPSK将近 4 年前
At my workplace one R&amp;D engineer had the last lines printed out as poster (i guess the AD note is older than 2007)
xbar将近 4 年前
Thanks. I will be sure to pay my respects at Boltzmann&#x27;s grave the next time I am in Vienan.
Footkerchief将近 4 年前
The underlying principle: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Johnson%E2%80%93Nyquist_noise" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Johnson%E2%80%93Nyquist_noise</a>
dekhn将近 4 年前
Yet another unexpected sighting of Boltzmann&#x27;s tomb.
sunjain将近 4 年前
It is surreal that this article showed up now. I am going back and forth currently with our electric utility company. They upgraded capacitor pack on the pole by my house. And these new ones are generating so much of this kind of low buzz sound, it is unbearable. I was researching into what generates this noise, and found this article very timely. Only solution is to move these, as nothing else can be done about this sound. Which is turning into quite a project.
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jeffrallen将近 4 年前
If you did not read to the last sentence, go back an do so. It&#x27;s worth it.
kazinator将近 4 年前
Should say &quot;Now that he&#x27;s long dead, we could easily get away with changing Professor Boltzmann&#x27;s constant, but it would be disrespectful&quot;.
failwhaleshark将近 4 年前
On a tangent: <i>acoustic</i> noise.<p>My HP 32SII made terrible resistor noises. Bzzzzzzz like some sort of bad tinnitus. I could also hear it on an HP 48G when I placed my ear up to it.<p>Wouldn&#x27;t it be possible to use SMT resistors and pot them in silastic to quiet them down?
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zihotki将近 4 年前
The article, actually a single Q&amp;A, is dated Sep 2007.
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FriendWithMoon将近 4 年前
Similar to what having permanent tinnitus sounds like. Take care of your ears!
peter_d_sherman将近 4 年前
There&#x27;s a strange relationship between Resistance, Noise (audible and above the auditory spectrum, such as RF), and the concept of Impedance...<p>I&#x27;ll put a wager that future (or perhaps even current!) scientists are able to engineer complex waveforms such that the complex waveform effectively negates the resistance&#x2F;noise&#x2F;impedance -- effectively turning the resistor into a conductor -- but only for that specific complex waveform -- which very possibly would change over time...<p>Also, future (and perhaps current!) scientists should be able to use an electrical signal of known characteristics -- to determine exactly what the complex impedance of the resistor&#x2F;resistance element&#x2F;impedance element -- in a circuit is, exactly...<p>In other words, given one of the above things (complex waveform, complex impedance) -- derive what the other one is, from it...
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