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Some locals say a Bitcoin mining operation is ruining one of the Finger Lakes

162 点作者 car将近 4 年前

24 条评论

NickM将近 4 年前
Ars Technica did a great piece about this a couple months ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2021&#x2F;05&#x2F;private-equity-firm-revives-zombie-fossil-fuel-power-plant-to-mine-bitcoin&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2021&#x2F;05&#x2F;private-equity-f...</a><p>The gist is that a private equity firm bought a defunct fossil plant and are running it to power mining rigs directly, without any connection to the outside power grid. Apparently this allows them to do an end run around certain regulations and taxes which only apply to grid-connected power plants.<p>The scariest part is that this is apparently insanely profitable for them. NY is pretty progressive and it would not surprise me if they crack down on this kind of thing, but other states or countries seem unlikely to do that.<p>All the stories we&#x27;ve read lately about fossil plants shutting down due to being replaced by renewables could ultimately be for nothing if companies like this one buy them all up and restart them.
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deviledeggs将近 4 年前
Hear me out, I don&#x27;t buy this. NY would have never approved operating a power plant that did such damage to the lake.<p>Notice they mentioned &quot;surface temperature&quot;. Many lakes are naturally stratified in summer. Especially lakes deep for their size. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lake_stratification" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lake_stratification</a><p>Indeed, Seneca lake is very deep, and naturally thermally stratified in summer:<p>&gt; Because of Seneca Lake&#x27;s great depth its temperature remains a near-constant 39 °F (4 °C).[3] In summer the top 10 to 15 feet (3.0 to 4.6 m) warms to 70–80 °F (21–27 °C)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Seneca_Lake_(New_York)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Seneca_Lake_(New_York)</a><p>I think crypto mining is a huge waste of energy. But this article has an ax to grind. A simpler explanation for warm surface temps is a warmer than usual summer.<p>Indeed, NY state has had two major heat waves already this year
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yodelshady将近 4 年前
Oh boy, fermi estimation time! Big caveat: all of the below assumes ideal mixing, which is not a given at this scale at all. So I&#x27;m not rubbishing the residents. (Nor disputing the idiocy of burning 45 MW to &quot;mine&quot; numbers for that matter.)<p>From wiki, the lake has a volume of 15 km3, or 15 trillion litres. The daily discharge of 135 million gallons is ~ 600 million litres. So, per day, it&#x27;s cycling about 40 parts per million. Alternatively, you&#x27;ll cycle the volume of the lake once every 67 years at that rate.<p>That same discharge is ~ 7000 litres per second, which will require 30 MW to heat by one degree Celsius. It&#x27;s listed at at most 45 MW, so one and a half degrees rise, unless any of the water is evaporated, which it quite possibly is (after all, more is licensed to go in the plant than come out. I wonder if they have some scheme where a small volume of water is heated to a point where evaporation matters, then it is mixed back in?).<p>Once again, the locals <i>may</i> be noticing, but only if very significant stratification is occurring. Water is <i>good</i> at dissipating heat.
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djrogers将近 4 年前
This seems rather fishy to me. First of all, they&#x27;re currently running at only 18MW, and that lake has about 4 billion gallons of water in it. That&#x27;s not enough energy use to produce a noticeable change in that much water.<p>Second problem - there are literally no lake water temperatures in the article, either now or historical. The entire premise of the article seems to be that locals <i>feel</i> that it&#x27;s warmer.<p>I personally think this kind of power use for bitcoin mining is wasteful and should be heavily taxed, but c&#x27;mon man - how about the reporter does a <i>little</i> bit of journalism?
dj_gitmo将近 4 年前
This is shameful either way, but per the NBC article it sounds like they will need a few years to be sure the lake is warming:<p>&gt; A full thermal study hasn&#x27;t been produced and won&#x27;t be until 2023, but residents protesting the plant say the lake is warmer with Greenidge operating. Greenidge recently published average discharged water temperatures from March 1 to April 17, during the trout spawning season; they were around 46 degrees to 54 degrees, with differences between inflow and outflow of 5 degrees to 7.5 degrees.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;environment&#x2F;some-locals-say-bitcoin-mining-operation-ruining-one-finger-lakes-n1272938" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nbcnews.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;environment&#x2F;some-locals-say-...</a><p>But apparently they plan to expand this business model.<p>&gt; In March, Greenidge said its Bitcoin mining capacity of 19 megawatts should reach 45 megawatts by December and may ramp to 500 megawatts by 2025 as it replicates its model elsewhere. Larger gas-fired plants in the U.S. have capacities of 1,500 to 3,500 megawatts.
40four将近 4 年前
If I may offer a little critical thinking, to a very biased, alarmist piece. This it seems very clear this is hit piece. It throws around some big numbers and a quote from some local, and comes up very short on analysis, and very big on leading readers into a particular conclusion.<p>Firstly, using lakes to cool power plants is not unusual or uncommon. They don&#x27;t really make that clear, and it feels like they want the reader to think this is nefarious. To me the title of this should be something more like &quot;Residents forgot the lake gets warmer when the power plant operates&quot;.<p>As far as the 135 million allowed to be discharged into the lake daily, it is an incredibly small amount compared to the size of the lake. According to Wikipedia, the volume of the lake is 3.81 cu&#x2F;miles of water. A quick search tells me 1 cu&#x2F;mi =~ 1.1 trillion gallons. Okay, some more rough math gives us a total of about 4.2 trillion gallons in the lake of which 135M gallons is something like 0.000032% of the total volume.<p>So my point is that when the article throws a figure like 135M gallons at you with no context it <i>seems huge</i>. But when you look at it in context, 3 one hundred thousands of one percent of the total, I have a hard time imagining that has any measurable impact on the lake whatsoever. I&#x27;m sure the quoted resident that lives very near to the plant had noticed the warmth, but anywhere else on the lake?<p>On top of this, the plant is under strict scrutiny by the regulators, and they appear to be operating withing the limits outlined by said regulators. So if there is anyone to get mad at here it&#x27;s not the plant operators, it&#x27;s the Department of Environmental Conservation.
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quadrifoliate将近 4 年前
(Ported from the duped thread [1])<p>I think it&#x27;s kind of good that these absurd scenarios involving Bitcoin are driving people (in the larger sense of companies and governments) towards more environmental awareness.<p>If you think about it, the entire system is just as absurd as Bitcoin. Business pollute the environment we live in, and then get to brag to shareholders about &quot;delivering value&quot;, &quot;increased revenue margins&quot;, and &quot;efficiency&quot; that they later get rewarded by the stock market for.<p>The green company that makes a slightly lower profit, but takes care of the environment falls out of the index to be replaced by the polluter that either does the bare minimum, or actively breaks laws and treats fines as the cost of doing business. The market rewards rapacity over environmentalism.<p>Well, Bitcoin is even more efficient, it&#x27;s directly burning coal and converting it into money that the market will <i>also</i> pay for!<p>The (hopefully) good outcome of this is that it will drive corporations and governments to take a breath, and formulate policies that prioritize the long-term health of the environment over short term priorities like jobs and the economy.<p>-------------------------------<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27749932" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27749932</a>
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iamben将近 4 年前
Buying carbon credits is like a corporate greenwashing get out jail free card, isn&#x27;t it? &quot;Hey, no need to hate us! We&#x27;re buying carbon credits!&quot;
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josu将近 4 年前
Not sure about the lake temperature, but the energy company just announced that all their bitcoin mining operations are carbon neutral.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.prnewswire.com&#x2F;news-releases&#x2F;greenidge-generation-bitcoin-mining-operation-to-be-carbon-neutral-in-2021-and-beyond-301291782.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.prnewswire.com&#x2F;news-releases&#x2F;greenidge-generatio...</a>
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eutropia将近 4 年前
What&#x27;s fascinating to me about bitcoin is how much it shortens the chain of transmutation between electricity and money.<p>A typical situation might involve a business or manufacturer taking power, raw materials, and labor to create something of value and sell it.<p>With bitcoin, anyone with sufficient capital can simply exploit natural resources and turn it directly into money. It&#x27;s a capitalist dream: remove nearly all labor from the equation leaving only capital and land (land in the Georgist sense being natural resource like coal, oil, land, water, etc). I think in this way it exposes market failures faster than anything else since the efficiency of capital-infused actors is so high...
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jlizzle30将近 4 年前
Why does this article not have the temperature change of the water?
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tzs将近 4 年前
&gt; The power plant, Greenidge, which is being closely monitored by the Department of Environmental Conservation, is allowed to suck in 139 million gallons of water and discharge 135 million gallons daily.<p>What is the rationale for the suck in allowance being 4 million gallons a day higher than the discharge allowance?
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ww520将近 4 年前
There were some discussion among people who want to invest in solar farms. A major hurdle is the interconnection into the grid. There&#x27;re lots of regulation and large fee to transmit electricity through the gird. From the people who have done it, they just chose not to connect to the grid but sell the electricity directly to the local users, like a local plant. It&#x27;s quite lucrative with all the tax credits and the sales of green credits while the electricity income was minuscule in comparison. The limitation is they have to be near some major electric users and totally relying on the few users.<p>With bitcoin mining, it&#x27;s possible to run a solar farm to mine the coins while disconnected from the grid. I&#x27;d imagine it&#x27;s quite competitive without all the interconnected fees.
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ilamont将近 4 年前
This isn&#x27;t the only crypto mining setup causing problems in rural New York state. A few firms set up shop near the St. Lawrence river in the northern part of the state to take advantage of cheap hydropower and rent. Locals complained that their electricity rates were being jacked up, which resulted in a slew of new rules at the municipal and state level.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.northcountrypublicradio.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;story&#x2F;40458&#x2F;20200128&#x2F;cryptocurrency-firm-in-plattsburgh-fights-1-million-electric-charge" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.northcountrypublicradio.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;story&#x2F;40458&#x2F;202...</a>
stretchwithme将近 4 年前
How wasteful crypto is depends on how its energy consumption compares to the energy consumption of the traditional banking system.<p>What is the energy consumption of armed trucks anyway? How much energy is required to build a bank branch?<p>Sure, the transaction charges are tiny with Bitcoin and storage is free. Is that an indicator of the differences in total energy consumption once the mining is over?<p>Also, what is the total energy consumed by coping with fiat currency&#x27;s inflation? Probably should include that.<p>I think some hyperinflation events also contribute to wars happening. These use energy too.
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betwixthewires将近 4 年前
I read the whole article looking for some indication as to the mechanism by which the power plant or mining operation are warming the lake. If there is one, it&#x27;s not in the article. I assume offloading waste heat from the power plant and&#x2F;or mining operation? That would have to be one hell of an operation to noticeably change the surface temperature of a lake that big. I wonder if anyone has anything more granular than &quot;feels like a hot tub.&quot;
jonfw将近 4 年前
Hot tubs are pretty warm. That&#x27;d be an extraordinary amount of energy. Would be interested to see data, measuring water temperature is pretty easy
dang将近 4 年前
Url changed from <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;markets.businessinsider.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;stocks&#x2F;bitcoin-mining-seneca-lake-finger-lakes-new-york-hot-tub-2021-7" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;markets.businessinsider.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;stocks&#x2F;bitcoin-mini...</a>, which points to this.
neonate将近 4 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;ByenE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;ByenE</a>
me_me_me将近 4 年前
&gt; Some locals say Bitcoin is great<p>&gt; Some locals say earth is flat<p>&gt; Some locals say...<p>Who cares?
data_spy将近 4 年前
I hate it when people claim jobs or work trump citizens rights. A minor example of this, why should developers and construction sites close sidewalks and car lanes?
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plank_time将近 4 年前
Biden needs to make Bitcoin illegal. It would instantly increase electricity capacity in many parts of the US and it would stop a large part of the money laundering that is going on in the US including ransom ware.<p>Why they haven’t yet made it illegal but made online poker illegal is beyond me.
xwdv将近 4 年前
In the old days at least we got something of value to society in exchange for pollution. Now we get nothing.
0xbadcafebee将近 4 年前
Changing the temperature of the water that drastically is potentially lethal to all sorts of species. It screws up when and where they breed, lay eggs, have access to cool water to cool off in, what plants grow (that is part of a complex ecological web), and might provide an opportunity for growth of harmful bacteria.<p>Here&#x27;s an article from November about the plant and trout fishing. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fingerlakes1.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;14&#x2F;fish-arent-biting-on-seneca&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fingerlakes1.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;14&#x2F;fish-arent-biting-on-sen...</a>