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Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

487 点作者 velmu将近 4 年前

20 条评论

dalbasal将近 4 年前
Not a ton of depth in the letter itself, but I like the angle they take. It&#x27;s not all about privacy or data security.<p>&quot;<i>In addition to the clear privacy issues caused by surveillance-based advertising, it is also detrimental to the business landscape.</i>&quot;<p>&quot;<i>In the surveillance-based advertising model, a few actors can obtain competitive advantages by collecting data from across websites and services and dominant platform actors can abuse their positions by giving preference to their own services.</i>&quot;<p>In many senses, Google &amp; FB have achieved what net neutrality wanted to prevent ISPs from doing. In the developing world, FB <i>has</i> actually achieved it. If AOL had succeeded, we would have ended up approximately here.
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pasabagi将近 4 年前
I think there&#x27;s a simpler way to achieve this. Force companies who leak personal data to pay reasonable damages to all the individuals involved, on the scale of 10-100 dollars, depending on how much personal info has been leaked.<p>That would make businesses very quickly reassess how much data they need to keep, and how careful they need to be with it, without requiring any really radical legislation.
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jefftk将近 4 年前
This looks like Vivaldi supporting a recommendation made by a consumer advocacy group in Norway (Norwegian Consumer Council &#x2F; Forbrukerradet), and boosting their report. You can read the original report at: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;20210622-final-report-time-to-ban-surveillance-based-advertising.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;202...</a>
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ColinHayhurst将近 4 年前
Cohort based targetting such as FLoC, PARAKEET and ATT will further embed the power of Big Tech. But I&#x27;m sure the HN community realizes this.<p>The question is: in the face of GAFAM moats and large lobbying efforts, how else might these coalitions and smaller&#x2F;emerging companies get regulators&#x27; attention?<p>Disclosure: we are part of this coalition of 14 businesses offering browsers, search, mail, analytics, and other web services and add our view here as a search engine <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.mojeek.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;07&#x2F;time-to-ban-surveillance-based-advertising.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.mojeek.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;07&#x2F;time-to-ban-surveillance-bas...</a>
apatheticonion将近 4 年前
Physical storefronts have over time learned how to optimise their presentation to achieve higher conversion. Initially it was experimentation with layouts, with time they added cameras which helped understand customer behaviours.<p>This expertise is commonly outsourced to physical marketing companies who dispatch &quot;merchandisers&quot; to your store to help optimise your layout to fall in line with the layouts they have designed based on the experience they have doing this for many different stores.<p>Some companies would actively seek out target customers, give them cash to conduct surveys for market research.<p>The barrier to retail taking this to an extreme is physical obstruction and money. It takes time to experiment with layouts, you have to pay people for their insight. It isn&#x27;t practical to have a Moogle which has cameras analyzing most physical storefronts around the world.<p>It&#x27;s a really complex issue as online retailers do make money from online advertising companies and it often matters to them, but the proliferation of the chosen advertising providers few means that everywhere you go they have a presence listening for your user actions.<p>With that said, these companies don&#x27;t really want to know you, they just want to ensure they are able to serve relevant ads to someone like you. Collecting personal data is a consequence of there being no other way to group data into uniquely identifying profiles and get those insights on the interests of those profiles.<p>More often, these companies explicitly don&#x27;t want to know you. Personal information is a massive liability.<p>Attempts to anonymise the data are difficult as you will need some kind of unique primary identifier, but you can infer a lot about an identity from seemingly unimportant things like browser resolution.
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mdp2021将近 4 年前
The problem is with the match of partial virtual profiles with individual-specific identities.<p>That A uses a profile to visit www sites about code optimization, leisure mathematics, statistic software and StackOverflow, and commercial information about some IDE is shown, that may be welcome.<p>That A uses another profile to visit www sites about baking cakes, nutriment science and ethnic restaurants, and information about some IDE is shown, that is unwelcome as an understatement.<p>That A is Adrian Oberweller of Tamaxa, MT and his individual-specific identity is associated with his private concerns, that is &quot;you must be joking&quot; swinging at the edge between dystopia and ridiculous.
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JumpCrisscross将近 4 年前
Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?
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eivarv将近 4 年前
More context: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;side&#x2F;new-report-details-threats-to-consumers-from-surveillance-based-advertising&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;side&#x2F;new-report-details-threat...</a>
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deregulateMed将近 4 年前
There&#x27;s something beautiful about Google lead FOSS software being the source of privacy software.<p>But hey that&#x27;s why we support FOSS. A bad dictator means it&#x27;s time to fork. If Chrome was proprietary, we&#x27;d be locked in a Walled Prison.
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only_as_i_fall将近 4 年前
Opposition to online surveillance always makes me wonder why nobody has attempted to create adversarial browsers or plug-ins.<p>I&#x27;m not aware of how difficult it would be technically, but wouldn&#x27;t a good solution to be simply throw troves of noise at Google Amazon and Facebook to drown out the actual signal?<p>For example, how valuable would online advertising even be if 20% of all users were continously clicking through the ads and opening the landing pages in a virtual browser that the user never even sees?<p>What about opening every search result at random and simply closing the page again after a few seconds?<p>Is there some reason this kind of idea is infeasible or illegal?
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alexashka将近 4 年前
Why not go to the logical conclusion and ban advertising?<p>Why not have a yellow pages of cool stuff with proper discovery mechanisms instead. Anyone who&#x27;s interested in new stuff can go and see what&#x27;s new, what&#x27;s happening, like reading the news.<p>Remember when you&#x27;d check the app store on your phone for cool stuff? Just have that, for everything.<p>Advertising is mind pollution, it&#x27;s exhaust fumes for your mind and it&#x27;s a giant industry that wastes everyone&#x27;s time playing zero sum games too, ugh.
1vuio0pswjnm7将近 4 年前
&quot;In a population survey conducted by YouGov on behalf of the Norwegian Consumer Council, just one out of ten respondents were positive to commercial actors collecting personal information about them online, while only one out of five thought that serving ads based on personal information is acceptable. This resembles similar surveys from both sides of the Atlantic, and indicates that consumers do not regard commercial surveillance as an acceptable trade-off for the possibility of seeing tailored ads.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;20210622-final-report-time-to-ban-surveillance-based-advertising.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbrukerradet.no&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;202...</a><p>In light of the evidence, should surveillance-based ads be opt-in (default, no need to figure out and change settings) or opt-out. Currently, tech companies make these ads opt-out. By default the ads are enabled. To disable them, the user must find, understand and change settings. Of course, most users do not ever change default settings. Many users may not even be aware that there are such things as settings.
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uniqueuid将近 4 年前
Instead of arguing what current business models that would break, I think we should take a step back and ask:<p>What legal and moral basis warrants &quot;surveillance-based advertising&quot;?<p>The premise of GDPR in the EU has been that &quot;surveillance-based advertising&quot; needs to be <i>balanced</i> with user rights.<p>If we come to the conclusion that this balance cannot be achieved (e.g. because users are not savvy enough to safeguard their rights, because data sticks around forever, because data can be sold etc.), then it&#x27;s a straightforward step to prohibit tracking entirely.
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crazypython将近 4 年前
1. Web content creators are funded by advertisers.<p>2. Tracking-based advertising generates more clicks than non-tracking based advertising.<p>3. Generating more clicks gives web content creators a bigger budget to create, resulting in more web content.<p>Therefore: It&#x27;s not surveillance-based advertising if all data is stored and processed locally in a way the website cannot read– ideally with a free and open source machine learning system. Like FLoC, but implemented better in a way the site cannot read.
codecutter将近 4 年前
I read the open letter. I learned about businesses that support user privacy and I will be supporting them with my wallet. (already use Mailfence and Duckduckgo )
pmoriarty将近 4 年前
Surveillance-based advertising is just the tip of the iceberg.<p>All unsolicited advertising should be banned.
no_time将近 4 年前
Ban targeted advertising.<p>Break up big tech into &lt;10 000 employee companies.<p>Make GDPR fines a percentage of global revenue.<p>Hold companies liable for data breaches.<p>Stop handing out software patents like toilet paper.<p>End planned obsolescence of tech products like phones.<p>Technology went from a tool to empower and enrich people&#x27;s lives to a tool to oppress and silence in a few short decades. Either people realize the monster it has turned into or the conjoining of government and tech companies will create a dystopia that will make the dictatorships of the previous millennia look like heaven on earth.
hungryforcodes将近 4 年前
Ban surveillance everything.
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kerkeslager将近 4 年前
Frankly, I don&#x27;t think this goes far enough: &quot;Ban advertising&quot; would be better.<p>Almost every problem with the internet right now is caused by advertising if you dig through the chain of causality. From social media patterns that addict you to conflict and conspiracy, to popups, adware and spam, to constant attacks on our attention even when we&#x27;re driving and could literally kill someone with inattention, to spreading dissatisfaction, fear, and poor financial advice, advertising is the root of much evil. And at its core, advertising is just never a good thing, in any context.<p>Proponents of advertising will say, &quot;How do people find out about products and services?&quot; but advertising is an extremely poor answer to that question: there&#x27;s an inherent conflict of interest when the people selling a product are the primary source of information about the product. In the worst case, this leads to advertisers just lying to consumers and manipulating people&#x27;s emotion. In the very best case, advertisers present information only about their own product, which doesn&#x27;t allow consumers to make educated decisions--it&#x27;s arguably not lying but the effect is the same. You might say, &quot;Why would advertisers be obligated to provide information about competitors?&quot; and you&#x27;re right, they aren&#x27;t, but we aren&#x27;t trying to establish blame or responsibility here, we&#x27;re trying to find a solution that&#x27;s good for consumers, and advertising just isn&#x27;t that.<p>A better solution is independent review sites. Consumer Reports[1] is a paid service, so you aren&#x27;t the product. More specialized sites exist for all sorts of product areas: I&#x27;m a rock climber, and when I want a new piece of rock climbing gear, the first places I look at are Outdoor Gear Lab[2] and Weigh My Rack [3]. There&#x27;s Labdoor[4] for supplements, Psychology Today[5] for therapists, WireCutter[6] for electronics, etc. But even here advertising has poisoned the water: many of these sites receive compensation from sellers, not from buyers, which has resulted in some dark patterns. It&#x27;s not a perfect solution, but it would work a lot better if advertising were banned, and these conflicts of interest were removed.<p>Another solution is simpler and older, and it&#x27;s exactly what I was doing in my previous post: word-of-mouth. That&#x27;s arguably one of the best solutions, because while it&#x27;s low-bandwidth, it&#x27;s high fidelity: people don&#x27;t go out of their way to promote a product unless it was actually quite good for them.<p>The other thing proponents of advertising will say is that advertising is necessary to fund existing sites, particularly content sites. On Hacker News, this often comes from someone who makes their money from advertising, directly or indirectly.<p>The thing is, the idea that people only produce content or software when it&#x27;s profitable to do so reflects a very narrow view of the world. It&#x27;s just not true. I&#x27;m old enough to remember the internet of the 90s, and in that time the internet was <i>full</i> of resources which were simply given away for free without advertising, which I&#x27;ll refer to roughly as &quot;old internet&quot;. Many old internet resources have yet to be reproduced in the new internet: Sheldon Brown&#x27;s page[7] is <i>still</i> the best resource on bikes (the advertising was added after his death). Erowid[8] remains the most comprehensive resource on drugs. Sites like Wikipedia have somewhat drunk the advertising poison--and were better before.<p>And that leads me to my third reason advertising should be banned: it&#x27;s infectious. Advertising is Scott Alexander&#x27;s Moloch[9]--if one entity does it, then all their competitors have to do it in order to compete. The entire purpose of the free market is supposedly that it results in the best outcomes, but this is clearly a hack that prevents that from happening: we want companies to compete by producing the best goods and services at the lowest cost, but when you allow advertising, companies can (and do) compete by manipulating consumers into buying inferior goods at higher costs. Advertising is an anticompetitive business practice that undermines the entire purpose of a free market.<p>Banning advertising is only a bad thing for bad companies: good companies would only stand to benefit. Banning advertising would free good companies to spend their resources on producing the best products and services at the lowest cost: every cent companies spend on advertising now is wasted money. Sure, some companies would go under without advertising. Good riddance: if your company can&#x27;t sell products and services without ramming them down consumer&#x27;s throats, your products&#x2F;services aren&#x27;t of value.<p>Contrary to the advertiser&#x27;s paternalistic views, the efficient market hypothesis means that people understand their own problems and can find solutions to them without your help. The world would be better off without advertising.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.consumerreports.org&#x2F;cro&#x2F;index.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.consumerreports.org&#x2F;cro&#x2F;index.htm</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.outdoorgearlab.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.outdoorgearlab.com&#x2F;</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;weighmyrack.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;weighmyrack.com&#x2F;</a><p>[4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;labdoor.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;labdoor.com&#x2F;</a><p>[5] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.psychologytoday.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;therapists" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.psychologytoday.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;therapists</a><p>[6] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;wirecutter&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;wirecutter&#x2F;</a><p>[7] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sheldonbrown.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sheldonbrown.com&#x2F;</a><p>[8] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.erowid.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.erowid.org&#x2F;</a><p>[9] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;07&#x2F;30&#x2F;meditations-on-moloch&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;07&#x2F;30&#x2F;meditations-on-moloch&#x2F;</a>
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kerkeslager将近 4 年前
Would any of the people who downvoted my post[1] without comment care to explain why?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27761401" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27761401</a><p>EDIT: Didn&#x27;t think so.
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