France Recalls Its Ambassadors to the U.S. and Australia over a Submarine Deal

It is super laughable because the nuclear powered version that they are building for themselves was a fixed bid contract for something like 10 billion for 8 subs.. and the Australian contract keeps going up and up something like 35 billion for ten subs. The diesel sub for Australia is based on the nuclear sub that they signed the fixed bid contract for. Anybody with half brain can tell they are making up the lost of fixed bid contract by charging the Australia more.. and then they act surprised when Australia pulls out when they can get nuclear subs for cheaper. When nuclear subs usually cost 2.5* the cost. These people do great reporting on all of this. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedrive.com&#x2F;the-war-zone" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedrive.com&#x2F;the-war-zone</a>

I wonder what French think now about their cancelling of the Mistral deal with Russia [0] under American pressure [1].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship#Russian_purchase" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mistral-class_amphibious_assau...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;us-france-russia-mistral-idUSBREA4B08V20140512" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;us-france-russia-mistral-idU...</a>

My observation:<p>1- US probably predicts that China is gonna breakthrough the first island chain in the next 10 years.<p>2- France needs to reconsider her Indo-Pacific stratrgy because Aussi explicitly shows that it&#x27;s going all in with US instead of trying to follow some sort of independent strategy.<p>3- Win for whoever in EU who supports self defense and a more consolidated Europe.<p>4- First time a non nuclear country (Aussi has very limited exp with nuclear power) manages to obtain nuclear subs from nuclear countries.

It seems like a bit of an overreaction. Is shipbuilding that important to France?

It’s pretty much an Anglosphere FU to the EU here, but the stakes are one countries military industrial complex vs another.<p>With nuclear tipped deterrents all around the world why are we so determined to play these power games? Not that it’s anything new of course. It reminds me of the future played out in Dune where nobody can act openly against each other so everyone is trained in espionage - what are those subs going to do? Give a 2 minute head start on 10 minute ICBMs?

I got how bad this seems from the French perspective, but pulling Ambassadors sounds like something you do if a country assassinated your diplomat or something, not just due to losing a military contract.

The issue is not the submarine deal, but frustrations lasting for months over other issues, in particular the travel ban. The US has had an EU travel ban for over 18 months, despite the EU having more vaccination and less covid than the US[0]. Which country&#x27;s citizen are not banned from traveling to the US? Russia! Despite a soaring epidemic and very low vaccination rates.<p>Biden told the world that &#x27;America is back&#x27;. Yet most of his foreign policy is similar to Trump&#x27;s, the difference is being in practice more abrasive to allies and more conciliatory with rivals. If this continues, the US will simply have less allies. Perhaps it&#x27;s more profitable to be a rival - the US will treat you better.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;16&#x2F;biden-travel-ban-europe-analysis&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;16&#x2F;biden-travel...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nafsa.org&#x2F;regulatory-information&#x2F;covid-19-restrictions-us-visas-and-entry#countryproclamations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nafsa.org&#x2F;regulatory-information&#x2F;covid-19-restri...</a><p>(Note that the EU travel ban was about to be lifted in January, the President reinstated it for no reason I can fathom.)

There&#x27;s no question that nuclear subs are more appropriate for Australia, especially against a sophisticated opponent like China. Hopefully USA and Australia can compensate France in some way to maintain their prestige.

Big weapons deals are always deeply political. If you have a defense alliance, it affects where you buy.<p>South Korea, Japan and Australia, etc. can generally buy any big weapon system they want as long as it&#x27;s American, because the US has huge political commitment to defend these countries. They can take bids from others to keep the price&#x2F;performance within reasonable limits, but unless the US system is outrageously expensive or inferior, they go with that.

This is not good - the west should be unifying against Russia and China, not infighting. Bunch of comments here about how US is an unreliable partner, how France is throwing a tantrum over trivial matters and how Australia is stabbing them in the back. The larger picture of all this bickering is causing sentiment dent amongst NATO countries and the rest of the western powers. Media finds all this spicy and it has been on top news channels spooking people into tribal instincts. Not good.

A little part of me was hoping the objection was on the grounds that we shouldn&#x27;t be increasing the number of hot nuclear weapons, but of-course it&#x27;s just a turf war.

A similar case is with Iran. France was bullied into leaving Iran and breaking our contracts there because the US do not like Iran.<p>France and style other countries tried to ask EU to weight it, but it was busy with doing nothing (and since it has zero influence anyway wild not have helped).<p>The US is a bully. We are the 1st grade kid being beaten up for fun and profit, and told to smile.<p>International politics is ugly and hypocrisy, in the name of Diplomacy.

Un café liberté, s&#x27;il vous plait!

Why didn&#x27;t they also recall their ambassador from the UK as well?

Why haven&#x27;t they recalled their Ambassador from the UK?

The french have a reason to be upset. Biden announced this without given them a chance to adjust to changing circumstances.<p>He did it in the manner he did, because he didn&#x27;t want it leaked out over time and undermining his announcement, which will surely help his approval rating as being tough on China.<p>This makes the french look stupid and out of the loop. It certainly doesn&#x27;t make them look like a respected ally.<p>The deal itself, they can&#x27;t complain. Australia is below china and if giving them nuclear subs is the right to do for national security, it&#x27;s the right thing to do.

I think it’s a touch ironic that for all the time the French government spent mocking the US because of Trump that they are now pulling a Trumpian temper tantrum for losing out on a business deal.

Is it just me or are there more off-topic political posts on HN lately?

It looks like the vaunted experience of Biden and his team has <i>not</i> translated into any sort of deft policymaking, particularly in foreign policy. The messy pullout out of Afghanistan, followed by this scuttling of the deal in progress between Australia and France have reinforced the notion that Uncle Sam <i>can not</i> be relied upon, even by his closest allies. Pretty surefire way of helping fence-sitters become client states of China.

Not a surprise, with the EU&#x27;s passivity wrt Russia, China, and Iran

This feels like a submarine piece.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;submarine.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;submarine.html</a>