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The price of individualism has proved to be the loss of privacy

125 点作者 freddyym超过 3 年前

29 条评论

tristor超过 3 年前
This article draws conclusions not in evidence, and thinking about this more broadly there is nothing about individualism that requires a loss of privacy. On the contrary, I myself, as most staunch individualists, are also privacy advocates, and we structure our lives to both preserve our individuality and freedom, and privacy is a central point of that. What external structures do not know about you cannot be used to manipulate or control you, so privacy is a bedrock cornerstone of individual liberty and the individualist movement.<p>Their example of doorbell cameras especially falls flat to me, because most people (including myself) are motivated to have a doorbell camera due to our own individual issues and not to support police dragnet surveillance. Some folks, myself included, even have made the effort to use doorbell cameras that are not cloud connected and record video locally on NVR so that this data can&#x27;t be shared without our explicit permission. There is nothing about these situations that &#x2F;requires&#x2F; a loss of privacy, and the causal link assumed in this article is not established within. It&#x27;s simply the case that every major tech company is incentivized to create systems that destroy privacy because they can more effectively monetize on our data and government agencies turn a blind eye because they also benefit from the loss of privacy in the private sector. It takes technical acumen and effort to ensure your privacy while still taking care to utilize modern technology, and the majority of people, even in the tech industry, do not have the necessary technical acumen to do so.<p>This is clearly a problem, but it&#x27;s not a trade-off between individualism and privacy, it&#x27;s a trade-off between the greed of dystopian multi-national megacorps and privacy.
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PragmaticPulp超过 3 年前
This is a very wordy article with a lot of non sequitur. A lot of big claims about surveillance states and behavior modification, but then the only practical examples are things like people installing doorbell cams to catch package thieves instead of “the prying eye of their neighbors” or traffic cameras catching red light runners.<p>The article then veers toward complaints about “cancel culture”, albeit with very flowery language:<p>&gt; Used to purge public life of these individuals, social media enables the construction and enforcement of intellectual and political orthodoxy.<p>Is it really surveillance if people are responding to public social media posts that someone deliberately uploads to a website for the purpose of public discussion?<p>I read the whole article but struggled to get anything useful out of it. The author’s entire premise seems to be built on a “good old days” vision of the past that has been idealized as a sort of utopia where everyone behaved well because their neighbors were constantly watching them, which is an ironic premise for an article that also complains about cancel culture on social media:<p>&gt; Omnipresent surveillance, a technical fix for social disorder, is a surrogate for the communities a post-Enlightenment world has destroyed.
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elurg超过 3 年前
The idea that shifting &quot;norm enforcement&quot; from local communities towards impersonal institutions is somehow &quot;bad&quot; is extremely wrong and harmful.<p>Large impersonal institutions are much easier to hold accountable than local communities. In small groups all sorts of abuse can be hidden and sometimes even outright accepted in the name of &quot;cohesion&quot;.<p>Small communities with informal power dynamics can be extremely toxic in a way that is far more harmful than google knowing what videos you watch. Small town may seem idyllic but they are often hell for that one gay resident.
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s1artibartfast超过 3 年前
Loss of privacy is not driven by individualism, but by an increasingly risk intolerant society.<p>Individualism is not directly in conflict with privacy, but rather both are in conflict public safety and compliance.<p>The article posits that increased individualism and breakdown of communities has led to a loss of privacy, but this was not a given, but a choice.<p>A society can simply choose to reject the loss of privacy and accept the costs that may come with individualism &amp; privacy.<p>Further, the entire argument that community surveillance was effective and required replacement is suspect. For example, murder rates were higher and case closure was much worse in the past under the community surveillance model. Crime rates were dropping at the same time that communities were disintegrating, all before the advent of mass surveillance.
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hammock超过 3 年前
If I understand, in essence the relevant control&#x2F;surveillance surface is whatever the agent is.<p>If that&#x27;s a head of household, then you surveil him - and the principals (individuals in the family&#x2F;household) preserve privacy.<p>If every individual has agency, then every individual tends to get surveilled.<p>If you think about this from a marketing&#x2F;sales POV, you want to understand the primary purchaser, not necessarily anyone else.
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JDEW超过 3 年前
Another way to think about it: privacy stayed constant over time, it just shifted from the family, local communities, and the social oversight (“eyes on the street”) that came with it, to big tech and government.
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talkingtab超过 3 年前
Confuses cause and effect. The loss of privacy, aka tracking people for what is euphemistically called &quot;advertising&quot;, causes individualism. Or more simply, if you destroy the ability to communicate and discuss collaboratively, communities cannot be created. CAS.
cblconfederate超过 3 年前
False dichotomies there. Collectivism is not lacking surveillance, it&#x27;s just that the surveillance is distributed and decentralized, you have citizens snooping on other people&#x27;s business and ratting them out for their political beliefs (a behavior common in former soviet countries).<p>Individualism does not require surveillance. The existence of the state does though, and if the preference of the citizens is for individualism, they delegate their collective surveillance duties to the police&#x2F;army&#x2F;secret services etc.<p>Individualism is possible without a state, collectivism is not.
Causality1超过 3 年前
If I had a rubber stamp of [citation needed] I would wear it down to the nub on this article.
nitwit005超过 3 年前
&gt; In Western countries, globalization and rapid technological change have dissolved the communities that grew up around industrial centers in the past. As these communities have crumbled, the systems of informal monitoring by neighbors and peers that maintained order within them have ceased to be effective.<p>I&#x27;ve never previously seen someone try to portray early industrial cities as lacking in crime. A strange form of rose colored glasses.
SyzygistSix超过 3 年前
I think the biggest driver for loss of privacy is mass consumerism and the popularity of FAANG-like products, which have little to do with individualism. I think advertisers have done a great job of equating individualism with consumer choice in many people&#x27;s minds but that doesn&#x27;t make it so.
OneTimePetes超过 3 年前
Sigh, read it and abandoned it. The true price is never discussed. He who feeds the data dragon, supplies a Interface for Social engineering on a unprecedented scale.<p>Facebook or Google could cook subtle social control schemes up in a cognitive blindspot and we could not even observe or discuss them, because they would seem natural to us. Like a synthetic religion and cults, just replacing the old religions &amp; communitys, easily accessible for manipulation via the social networks.
helen___keller超过 3 年前
This could be summarized: in the west, technology has empowered populism and in the east, technology has empowered totalitarianism; often to the same ends.
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roenxi超过 3 年前
Creeping surveillance has nothing to do with philosophies or control systems. The technological era has made it really cheap to spy on people. It is going to take some real bloodbaths for principles to win over that sort of economic pressure.<p>Hopefully we never really feel the bite of cheap surveillance, but realistically? The Nazis weren&#x27;t even a century ago. The next 100 years will be rough.
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jollybean超过 3 年前
There isn&#x27;t even a remote equivalence between &#x27;a few doorbells which may, in some cases be used by police&#x27; to the 360 information control that the CCP has implemented.<p>&#x27;Surveillance Capitalism&#x27; of the Facebook type is equally as mundane: nobody is actually harmed by the fact that Facebook knows a lot about you. Facebook feeds people garbage information, which is arguably harm, but they&#x27;d do that anyhow.<p>If Facebook&#x27;s was only allowed to collect a fragment of information relative to what they do today - nothing would change. The world wouldn&#x27;t skip a beat.<p>Meanwhile, the failure of CCP&#x27;s information controls, would probably mean regime change within 5 years.
germandiago超过 3 年前
I have lived in a communist country where they use both the traditional and the technology methods for surveillance.<p>Way more than any capitalist country and censorship (though also there is to some extent in westerner world but softer).<p>I fail to see how the headline matches the fact that in capitalist countries there is surveillance with technology as a difference with where I lived.
godelski超过 3 年前
Alternative explanation: rise of authoritarianism in the west leads to more loss of privacy.
indymike超过 3 年前
I think this article is best summed up with: &quot;Author exhausts arms hand waving.&quot;
Ginden超过 3 年前
&gt; the logic of Enlightenment values has led to increased social control.<p>Despite that, fundamentalist Christian communities, closest surrogate for &quot;good days before Enlightenment&quot;, espouse much stricter social control than mainstream society.
sysadm1n超过 3 年前
&gt; we are seeing an increased reliance on technologies of surveillance. For example, front-door cameras now protect homes from burglars, and internet-connected videos inform absent residents when packages are delivered<p>I&#x27;d like to re-frame this positively. Putting minor surveillance powers in the hands of everyday folk is a net win. I don&#x27;t know about you, but I like to see who is poking around my premises. Oldskool neighborhood watch initiatives don&#x27;t cut it anymore. I can see there would be a problem if your IP camera got accidentally broadcasted to the public facing Internet and criminals could see your house was empty, but the onus is on the user to lock down their equipment. Not the manufacturers.
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Aidevah超过 3 年前
It&#x27;s always good to see John Gray&#x27;s writing getting attention, in my opinion he is one of the most perceptive writers out there. However, the title of this submission should probably changed since the conversation is getting sidetracked. The original title of the article is &quot;Surveillance Capitalism Vs. The Surveillance State&quot; with the tagline &quot;Surveillance technology is the surrogate for the communities Western capitalism has destroyed&quot;. The comment about individualism and privacy is a single sentence in the middle. The main drive of the article, as suggested in the original title, is about the convergence of both West and East in terms of mass surveillance and internet monopolies. Considering the vast gulf between their histories and cultures, surely this convergence is an interesting (and not at all inevitable) phenomenon.
tomohawk超过 3 年前
There is no distinction between so called &quot;surveillance capitalism&quot; and the state that uses it for their purposes.
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chiefalchemist超过 3 年前
The article has a minor flaw that should be highlighted.<p>Per &quot;The Age of Surveillance Capitalism&quot; the issue isn&#x27;t the surveillance per se. It&#x27;s how that awareness is used against us.<p>That is, the Surveillance Capitalist isn&#x27;t simply watching, there&#x27;s a feedback loop that allows them to influence. Influence where to go. Influence what to buy. Ultimately, influence what to think.<p>It&#x27;s not about surveillance. It&#x27;s about control.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=hIXhnWUmMvw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=hIXhnWUmMvw</a>
raxxorrax超过 3 年前
Pretty much the opposite is true, the dichotomy is just wrong-
fithisux超过 3 年前
Very insightful document uncovering what is happening right now.
srcreigh超过 3 年前
Why is the submission title different from the article title?
EGreg超过 3 年前
I wrote this a long time ago and it’s still true today:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;magarshak.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;?p=169" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;magarshak.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;?p=169</a>
mark_l_watson超过 3 年前
The actual title of the article is “Surveillance Capitalism Vs. The Surveillance State.”<p>I could be very wrong about this, but, I worry more about corporate surveillance than government surveillance.<p>That said I worry about both. When the government and corporations know much more about us than we know about them then they have a tactical advantage in every interaction.
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disneygibson超过 3 年前
You can think of it as a hollowing out of the middle. As people have become more individualistic, they’ve lost interest in the “middle range” of power: neighborhood, town, city, state. This power structure has collapsed almost entirely, flushing all of it to the top, centralized federal level. This is also why an urbanite in Brooklyn is more similar to one in San Francisco than to those a hundred miles north in upstate New York. Local identities have been replaced entirely by national and increasingly international ones.
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