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The U.S. Air Force Has Doubts About the F-35

69 点作者 noyesno超过 3 年前

28 条评论

mrtksn超过 3 年前
Does anyone knows what&#x27;s the argument to use manned planes over drones anyway?<p>Turkey, which is kicked out if the F-35 program for political reasons, demonstrated huge success in battle through it&#x27;s home grown drone programs.<p>F-35&#x27;s were supposed to be the stealth weapons who were to be able to penetrate Russia made air defences etc, but Turkey proved in Syria that relatively cheap drones can do just that. Before the Turkish drones, only Israel was able to hit a Russian made air defence system and that was done when it wasn&#x27;t operational at that moment. During the conflicts between Azerbaijan-Armenia, Syria, Libya the Turkish made drones hunted down multiple such system and provided very impressive footage of the action.<p>Again, Turkish drones are suspected to be used in first ever AI based attacks, where for the first time machines decided who to kill and who to spare[0].<p>Though Turkey has a sizeable engineering capacity, it&#x27;s not a rich country. Budgets used to develop these drones are nowhere near the F-35 or similar projects. One wonders, what&#x27;s the argument to invest so much in planes when there&#x27;s low hanging fruits in the drones business.<p>It seems to me, the 5th gen plane projects are like trying to breed the next gen horses instead of developing the automobiles.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.popularmechanics.com&#x2F;military&#x2F;weapons&#x2F;a36559508&#x2F;drones-autonomously-attacked-humans-libya-united-nations-report&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.popularmechanics.com&#x2F;military&#x2F;weapons&#x2F;a36559508&#x2F;...</a>
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jazzyjackson超过 3 年前
I’m still crossing my fingers half our budget for this plane was diverted to secret research - perhaps into something rather tic-tac shaped… was the blackbird and nighthawk development reported in the open like the F35? or were they developed within black budgets diverted from other, apparently wasteful projects?<p>disclaimer: I get all my info from “Independence Day”
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Gravityloss超过 3 年前
Finland is deciding on its biggest national purchase ever this year, new fighters to replace the F&#x2F;A-18 Hornets. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;HX_Fighter_Program" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;HX_Fighter_Program</a> .<p>It seems every fighter has had its share of scandals, though the local press of course doesn&#x27;t report of a lot of it.<p>The lift fan space in the B variant has forced a &quot;fat&quot; design on all the three variants, with resulting aerodynamic penalties.<p>To me, it seems it would have been relatively easy to just design a new airframe ignoring any commonality in airframe, because - the airframe is not the expensive part. Maybe it was in the fifties still. Instead use all the systems like the engine, avionics, sensors, software etc where the cost anyway is nowadays. Even aerodynamic design can be done with computers nowadays so you don&#x27;t need so much calendar time in costly wind tunnels.
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piokoch超过 3 年前
F-35 has a few very strong points. For instance it has best available radar and other sensors, so for a country that does not have dedicated AWACS plane, it can serve as (not so) poor man AWACS. Being somewhat stealth and being able to carry JASSM&#x2F;JASSM-ER missiles it is useful for the not so great army that want to attack the opponent on the opponent&#x27;s territory (not really US army use case...).<p>F-35 sounds like a good solution for, say, Poland, since Polish F-35 (Harpias) maneuvering unnoticed near Belorussian border will be able to attack Russian forces, supply lines all the way to the Smolensk Gate (50-mile-wide territory between the Dzwina and Dnieper rivers), which is a main attack direction for Russian army.<p>Similarly, planes operating in the middle of Poland can attack targets in Kaliningrad - another crucial strategic ability for Polish defense.<p>Note, that dogfight capabilities (in which F-35 is worst than F-16) does not matter here, Polish or Finnish army will always avoid confronting Russian air forces in the direct air strike, as they will be outnumber by Russians.<p>Strangely, it seems that F-35 is much more useful for other armies than US army so no surprise US army wants something different.<p>Another thing is that F-16 Viper has sensors almost at the level of F-35, can carry JASSM missiles, but it is way, way, cheaper to buy and maintain...
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AndyMcConachie超过 3 年前
Everyone who wasn&#x27;t a shill for the defense industry has been pointing out the uselessness of the F-35 for over 10 years. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=UQB4W8C0rZI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=UQB4W8C0rZI</a><p>It&#x27;s purpose is not to conduct war effectively. It&#x27;s purpose is to transfer public wealth into private hands.
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MomoXenosaga超过 3 年前
In my country we&#x27;ve had doubts about it for decades but in order not to offend America it was considered politically prudent to buy quite literally any crap the US makes at whatever cost. It&#x27;s not like we&#x27;re ever going to war anyway.
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quiffledwerg超过 3 年前
These are the planes that the military builds when in peacetime controlled by vested interests.<p>In a real war there would be a much sharper focus on building planes that can fight and win. But that what the enemies of the US are already doing and it’ll be too late for the US when it needs the right planes.<p>The US is focused on building complex overly technology focused boondoggle machines that take far to long to design and build and cost too much and underperform.<p>It’s a robot war future anyway.
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mcv超过 3 年前
&gt; This new fighter would not replace the F-35, but would instead be used in place of 4th generation fighters like the F-16 Fighting Falcon.<p>But wasn&#x27;t the F-35 already meant to replace the F-16? As well as the F-15, F-18, A-10 and a whole slew of other planes? I guess this means they finally figured out that was unrealistic.<p>&gt; The Air Force has already begun purchasing a slew of new old fighters in the 4th generation F-15EX, which will replace aging F-15 Eagles in the branch’s inventory.<p>So they&#x27;re buying <i>new</i> F-15s now? That&#x27;s a plane from the 1970s, right? That sounds like a testament of good those designs were, and how little has effectively improved in the 40+ years since then. I mean, obviously this new F-15 will have all the best new high-tech computer, radar, targeting gear that will probably also end up in the F-35, but the airframe is apparently still a solid design, as long as you don&#x27;t need stealth and VTOL.
hetspookjee超过 3 年前
Any country still investing in airplanes that hold pilots are wasting there money and should get their shit up to date. The days have been long gone that any pilot would be able to judge if their target is a yay or nay. The distances vastly overreach the capabilities of even the best person&#x27;s eyes, and the added cost and complexity of putting a human in a jet are not worth it.
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joosters超过 3 年前
Are manned fighter jets obsolete by now? Surely we can produce drones that are just as capable, if not more so, and they would be vastly, order-of-magnitude cheaper than the planes that have to protect squishy human beings.<p>Being cheaper means you can have more of them, which then could mean you don&#x27;t even need to worry about the expensive stealth features. So what if the enemy detects one and shoots it down? The four other drones can carry on with the mission.
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rwmj超过 3 年前
Also in the news, the F-35 that fell into the Mediterranean has been pulled out: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;GX7na" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;GX7na</a> Video of it originally falling off the end of the HMS Queen Elizabeth carrier: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-59470276" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-59470276</a>
throwaway4good超过 3 年前
A question to ask is: As long the west (the US) only goes to war with nations whose military is vastly inferior (like Iraq or Afghanistan). Then why do we need the F-35?<p>An F-16 will do just as well against someone armed with an AK-47.
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nowherebeen超过 3 年前
The F-35 is a prime example of Sunk Cost Fallacy.
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LatteLazy超过 3 年前
It&#x27;s interesting that people seem to have such black and white views of such a huge, complex, long term, international programme...
sc68cal超过 3 年前
County&#x27;s infrastructure is falling apart but we had plenty of money for that piece of shit
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KingOfCoders超过 3 年前
I like:<p>&quot;If you were to go back to the year 2000 and somebody said, ‘I can build an airplane that is stealthy and has vertical takeoff and landing capabilities and can go supersonic,’ most people in the industry would have said that’s impossible&quot;<p>How anyone thought they get a cheaper plane which at the time was &quot;impossible&quot; is beyond me.
ardit33超过 3 年前
This is slightly old news:<p>TLDR: F-35 is too expensive to maintain and operate, therefore the USAF wants a 4.5Gen Fighter (non stealth, but with updated electronics) to replace the older F-16 that will be retired soon.<p>This is similar to the strategy that the russians did with the unveiling of their &#x27;Checkmate&#x27; light weight fighter last month.<p>So the USAF wants more funds to build yet another fighter. (it has already a 6gen fighter in development).<p>I feel it is going to be another waste of money. It wont be much better than an updated FA-18 or an F-15EX with more advanced electronics.<p>The best thing it can do is to accelerate the development of the 6gen fighter, and mass produce a cheaper &#x27;non-stealth&#x27; version of it as the cheaper version, but with the same electronics. The best way to do cost saving by scaling up production of the same internal components&#x2F;avionics.
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jussij超过 3 年前
Here in Australia the ABC raised doubts about the F-35 back in 2013.<p>Here&#x27;s their analysis of that aircraft:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;4corners&#x2F;reach-for-the-sky&#x2F;4526982" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.abc.net.au&#x2F;4corners&#x2F;reach-for-the-sky&#x2F;4526982</a><p>In particular they ask is fairly obvious question:<p><i>It&#x27;s billed as the smartest jet fighter on the planet, but could the JSF be a massive waste of money?</i><p>The Australian Government purchased these massively expensive F-35s even when basic logic told us they would be duds.<p>I would say this analysis shows governments are not good at making simple decisions as they struggle with basic logic.
flohofwoe超过 3 年前
&gt; This new fighter would not replace the F-35, but would instead be used in place of 4th generation fighters like the F-16 Fighting Falcon.<p>Wasn&#x27;t the whole point of the F-35 to be exactly this F-16 replacement? E.g. the F-22 was supposed to replace the F-15 as specialized air-superiority fighter, while the F-35 would replace the F-16 and F-18 as cheap all-purpose fighter). Now the F-22 is no longer produced and the F-35 is so expensive that the search for a cheaper alternative begins, and the cycle can start anew...<p>Suddenly the much more pragmatic Su-57 design doesn&#x27;t look so silly anymore.
dirtyid超过 3 年前
Whatever one thinks about F35 capabilities, it&#x27;s a massive successful export program that&#x27;s ensnared &#x2F; locked in dependencies all over the world. Of course that&#x27;s dramatically undermined the second a F-35 gets shot down with Russian&#x2F;PRC missile tech. Which will then be proliferated everywhere. Who knows the entire platform could have been &quot;cracked&quot; already and majority of operators (read western world) are sitting on duds. There&#x27;s something to be said about diversity, especially in defense.
curt15超过 3 年前
An air force general had this to say about the F-35 a few years ago[1]:<p>&quot;If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22&quot;<p>Have things changed since?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businessinsider.com&#x2F;david-cenciotti-the-f-35-fleet-will-be-irrelevant-2014-2" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.businessinsider.com&#x2F;david-cenciotti-the-f-35-fle...</a>
jonathankoren超过 3 年前
Recent article on the proposed 5- generation aircraft, the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedrive.com&#x2F;the-war-zone&#x2F;41138&#x2F;the-air-force-might-make-two-distinct-versions-of-its-next-multirole-stealth-fighter" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedrive.com&#x2F;the-war-zone&#x2F;41138&#x2F;the-air-force-mi...</a>
hunglee2超过 3 年前
&quot;the price of operating the aircraft. Thanks to state-of-the-art stealth technology and radar-absorbent coating that needs frequent touch-ups, the F-35 costs around $44,000 per hour of flight&quot;<p>- that is absolutely crazy, especially during times of non-war when these machines are essentially up there for patrol and training.
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laydn超过 3 年前
Ah yes, yet ANOTHER fighter jet program. I am sure this time, they will get it right (on time, on budget). &#x2F;S
btilly超过 3 年前
Never worry, if the F-35 remains the mess that people expect, Russia is happy to sell its aptly named Checkmate in answer..to everyone except the USA.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rbth.com&#x2F;science-and-tech&#x2F;334416-russian-checkmate-fighter-jet" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.rbth.com&#x2F;science-and-tech&#x2F;334416-russian-checkma...</a>
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KingOfCoders超过 3 年前
Again?
rado超过 3 年前
Same.
throwaway4good超过 3 年前
Here is the clip of the British F-35 failing take off and instead crashing into the sea:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;sebh1981&#x2F;status&#x2F;1465351592018956295" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;sebh1981&#x2F;status&#x2F;1465351592018956295</a><p>No doubt a technogical marvel but maybe too complex for practical use.
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