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Ordering movie credits with graph theory

210 点作者 sigil超过 3 年前

17 条评论

adrianmonk超过 3 年前
Not being a movie buff, I really did not understand the basics of what the goal is here. (There was a problem statement, but it really didn&#x27;t give the 50,000 foot view.) After having read much of the article, I think I can summarize it.<p>(1) Whose name comes up first when the credits roll matters in some way. Presumably people feel slighted if they don&#x27;t have the right amount of prominence or something like that.<p>(2) Apparently, despite this being important enough to worry about, and even though there are standardized titles, and even though people have been making movies for well over 100 years, there isn&#x27;t a consensus or standardized order. Seemingly every film just sort of does something they feel is appropriate.<p>(3) It must be a fair assumption that people who arrange credits do it with purpose, so that if you look at the order they chose, it tells you something meaningful about what the right order is.<p>(4) The goal, then, is to basically computationally reverse engineer what order people have in mind when they put credits on film and produce an ordering that reflects actual practice as accurately as possible.<p>(5) This is a messy process because the data is inconsistent and contradictory, so it is fertile ground for creatively applying algorithms to tease out the meaningful parts.
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dahfizz超过 3 年前
Really interesting write up. I hate that this website hides my scroll bar, though. And overlaying the ordering right on top of the image of the credits as you scroll is irritating. If you want to compare the ordering and the credits themselves, you have to scroll up and down repeatedly. There is plenty of room to put the ordering next to the credits, no &quot;fancy&quot; styling required.
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scubbo超过 3 年前
Doesn&#x27;t this presuppose that there exists a single canonical way to order the credits, rather than them being reordered per-project? Perhaps the Lighting Electrician role in Love Hard was less impactful than in Black Is King, leading to it being intentionally ranked lower.
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88超过 3 年前
Surely the order of movie credits is a political decision, not a technical one?
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zestyping超过 3 年前
Why? What&#x27;s the point of trying to come up with a single optimal order? Every movie does it differently and probably has reasons for doing so. This seems like investing a huge amount of work to solve a problem that no one really needs the solution to.
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glitcher超过 3 年前
Off topic:<p>Does anyone know of a resource where you can search for peoples&#x27; names that appear in any movie&#x2F;tv credits? The list of credits can be massive, and I don&#x27;t think sites like IMDb are trying to create archival coverage at that level of detail.
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Mountain_Skies超过 3 年前
Once you get past the major names and into the scroll, the text usually moves from the bottom of the screen upwards. This works naturally with the way we read English. But I&#x27;ve seen at least one movie do it in reverse with the text moving downwards. I thought it was the original &#x27;Repo Man&#x27; but the only instance of those end credits I can find on YouTube seems to indicate that&#x27;s not it.<p>Whatever movie did it, it makes me wonder if the screen could simply be split in two, with major credits scrolling upwards on the left half and more minor roles scrolling downwards on the right half, perhaps at a different speed. Major stars, directors, producers, etc. would still get their full screen credits before the scrolling started. Deciding who ends up on with side of the screen would of course be another complication.
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LeonardoTolstoy超过 3 年前
The main acting credits order in films is an interesting question as well which I guess could maybe be answered in a similar manner. Some films order actors alphabetically. Some by appearance. And some order the first N by some contractually reasoning, but then presumably the rest will be ordered less strictly, possibly somewhat randomly. I&#x27;ve always wanted to tackle the problem of trying to standardize the lists somewhat.<p>Just an example to explain what I mean. The film Bard Wire has an alphabetical cast list (so Pamela Anderson Lee, as she went by at the time, is mid way down the credits). Interestingly the &quot;three actors&quot; listed by IMDb has Anderson first, but then the next two are just the top two on the credits. It would be useful, to a degree, to try and figure out who those second and third people should be based on some metric.
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sfink超过 3 年前
Cool article, it&#x27;s fun to see how many situations can be mapped to graph theory.<p>The description of the cost function seems strange, since it&#x27;s described in terms of the distance from &quot;the correct order&quot;. It&#x27;s clear that there is no single correct order. If two movies disagree on the ordering, it is not necessarily the case that one of them is doing it &quot;wrong&quot;.<p>Mathematically, it seems like it would be better to see any given movie&#x27;s ordering as a sample from a statistical distribution. That suggests that computing cost in confidence terms, as in the probability of generating that ordering given your assumed distribution, might make more semantic sense. So for example you could maybe use the frequency graphs from the article and sum up the surprise of each path from the first to last entry in your list. (Where &quot;surprise&quot; here is the inverse of how frequently one node follows another.) That&#x27;s linear. Or you could do it quadratically by making a matrix of A-follows-B frequencies and then summing up all pairs of entries in your list (normalizing by the length of the list). The latter takes more of the graph structure into account.<p>Which is also the other thing that seemed a bit odd -- it seems like the &quot;A follows B&quot; relationship is getting a little mixed up with &quot;A immediately follows B&quot;. As in, clumping the generator-related roles together isn&#x27;t the same thing as saying an intern should follow a principal, and the cost function shouldn&#x27;t treat those constraints the same way. I don&#x27;t know how much noise it introduces, but intuitively it seems like the algorithm probably ought to do an ordering and then a clumping. Or perhaps the opposite: do ordering within clumps (&quot;everything with &#x27;generator&#x27; in the name&quot;), then treat the clump as a single component for the main ordering pass.<p>The last thing is that the article seems to take NP-hardness too seriously. Sure, if you really had to consider every possible permutation, it would take too long. But there&#x27;s <i>way</i> more than enough structure in the problem to take advantage of. Some very very conservative heuristics would surely dramatically reduce the size of the <i>relevant</i> N that participates in the core NP-hard problem. Your Traveling Salesman may have to visit 50 cities in each of Oregon and New York, but you <i>know</i> there&#x27;s no point in making him fly back and forth between the states more than the minimally required (2). Write your algorithms in such a way that you don&#x27;t need to even allow the possibility of putting the Gaffer behind the Intern Electrician&#x27;s Boyfriend&#x27;s Dog.
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fudged71超过 3 年前
Jumping off the end of the article... Has this technique been done with org charts? Is there any place I can dump a list of role names and have an &quot;expected&quot; org chart generated?
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forrestthewoods超过 3 年前
Fun post. Well written and great visuals.<p>Is it stealing the scroll bar for anyone else? I literally can’t tell where I am in the article and have to scroll with my mouse wheel. Wat?
noxvilleza超过 3 年前
I wonder, now that there&#x27;s a metric for what are the most &quot;normal&quot; credit structures, what the most abnormal structures are.<p>Also interested why they went with Trueskill over Glicko 2, since it&#x27;s just 1v1 &#x27;encounters&#x27; anyway.
bigmattystyles超过 3 年前
This is a tangent, and I know everything is negotiated via contracts but what is the deal with the ordering of names on posters not matching the order of the actors on the poster when the poster picture is a group photo.
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tomcam超过 3 年前
Finally, Balloon Technician David Thurlow gets his due. It’s high time. His work in 2014’s “Freedom” stands out, according to most ballon technicians
ridaj超过 3 年前
I wonder if the low level production assistants tasked with putting together the credit lists cost enough to justify the work going into this.
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ouid超过 3 年前
credit position is an incentive that costs employers nothing, so of course it&#x27;s optimized way beyond sanity.
citizenpaul超过 3 年前
What is the abomination of a webpage that removes the scroll bar? Pass.