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Fucking Sue Me

695 点作者 pud超过 13 年前

36 条评论

grellas超过 13 年前
Contract reviews done by lawyers need to follow good-sense guidelines.<p>Some contracts are routine and don't need any form of customizing. The review in such cases is minimal and can even be skipped if the routine nature of the contract is obvious or if the entrepreneur is seasoned enough to identify a clean situation without lawyer help. Most such routine contracts cover simple cases, such as a simple nda or a recurring situation in which a basic template is used with no material variation apart from non-legal business items that typically get customized in an exhibit.<p>For most cases, though, the whole key to doing a contract right is to customize it properly <i>on its material points</i>. This means it should be clear, it should accurately reflect the intent of the parties, and it should contain basic legal protections for each party. It is vital to this process that both the lawyer and the entrepreneur understand what is material. Why? Because that determines the proper cost-benefit analysis for how it should be reviewed.<p>For example, say a startup is negotiating a 1-year office lease for only a few hundred square feet of space at a modest rental rate. That sort of lease needs very little lawyer review because there is not much at stake (the money is small, the location itself not particularly important to the startup, etc.). A quick read-through by the lawyer is the max that this needs and then only to see if there is anything wildly out of line in the document. What about a 3-year lease with more square footage and a higher rent? In that case, maybe a good high-level review is in order, with comments and mark-ups on a range of important points but little or no attention paid to boilerplate clauses that may be highly unfavorable to the tenant as worded but that are also highly unlikely to occur. And what if the lease is for 5 years with two 5-year options to renew, with a location that is very important to the business involved, and with risks (such as potential environmental liabilities) that can far exceed even the value of the lease itself if mishandled? In that case, lawyer review is normally vital and needs to be pretty thorough (including even haggling over much of the boilerplate language) because it is far more likely that contingent risks can come about over a lengthy period, the amounts at stake are greater, and the lease itself may be important to the business (e.g., a restaurant that depends heavily on having a particular location).<p>This same sort of approach applies to a whole range of contracts. What if your business is getting acquired or if you are buying a business? Well, if it is a little business and the purchase price is very small (say, $50,000), you can very likely be well-served by a canned form used for small business sales (brokers who do these deals use these all the time). Such a form will have basic provisions covered and will usually contain the most important warranties and representations but all of it will be bare-bones. This normally works fine for a small sale. Again, lawyer review can be skipped or done at the quick read-through level. But what if the business you are buying is going to cost you $1,000,000. In that case, you still are in the small-business category but the money is more significant. This likely warrants an intermediate level of lawyer review (contract needs to be customized for the deal, with proper account taken of whether it should be structured as an asset sale, stock sale, or merger - each having different tax consequences - and with careful attention paid to reps and warranties, to conditions for closing, and to collateral matters such as non-compete, etc.). This might take $5K or $10K or sometimes more in lawyer time but it is money normally well spent (it certainly is if you are a small business owner and $1M is a lot of money to put at risk for your situation). And, of course, once you start talking about acquisitions in the tens or hundreds of millions, you need major lawyer time to make sure the complex aspects of such deals are handled properly.<p>What about a license agreement? A small deal, with non-exclusive rights concerning routine IP needs little or no lawyer review. But a core OEM deal involving the licensing of IP that is at the core of your company obviously warrants significant lawyer review, especially if it involves joint development efforts, sweeping indemnification clauses that might trigger major liabilities, or other complications that require sophisticated handling of IP and other rights. Of course, there is also the issue of weasel language and its nasty impact if it is not caught and deleted from any major contract.<p>In short, lawyers and entrepreneurs need to be guided by good sense in handling these matters. It is not good sense simply to act as if lawyers are not needed. It takes only one really bad instance for most entrepreneurs to realize how bad a mistake it is to cut corners in really important matters. On the other hand, letting lawyers run wild with their reviews is foolish as well. Their time must be managed and managed well. It should be used where it matters and curbed where it doesn't.<p>Let the barbs fly, then, but this is one lawyer who will insist that the advice given in this piece may have a grain of truth in it but is too simplistic to cover most serious business affairs. It may work in a number of cases but it can easily get you into trouble.<p>By the way, I am not saying give an open ticket to lawyers. If your lawyer can't make good judgments concerning what is important and what is not, and can't manage time wisely, it is time to get a new lawyer.
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tptacek超过 13 年前
Ugh.<p>At one extreme: giving your counsel veto power over what contracts you sign, and allowing them to bill time ping-ponging contracts until prospects give up.<p>At the other extreme: just signing everything and saying "fucking sue me" when things go sideways.<p>You should be somewhere in the middle. Contracts more often than not have provisions that are silly for you to accept verbatim. And, contracts more often than not have provisions you'd <i>rather not</i> accept, but that are baked into your prospect's own processes and not changeable.<p>No matter what you do, if you're being sensible, there are going to be tough decisions to make every once in awhile. If there aren't, you're probably doing something wrong. Like, for instance, signing tens of different contracts from giant companies without any legal review.
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owenmarshall超过 13 年前
&#62; Then there was the time I wanted to hire my first full time employee. I was apprehensive to do it because I only had enough money to pay him for 2 months, unless I got another client fast.<p>&#62; “Worry about that in 2 months,” Dad said.<p>Speaking from the perspective of that employee, <i>fuck you</i>.<p>OK, for the serious point: you may be not give a shit about risk. Good for you, you crazy risk taker! The world truly needs more people like you.<p>But for me? I've got a mortgage and a car payment and a wife who is trying to go through graduate school. I need to know that my ass isn't going to come into work on the 61st day and hear you say "Well, looks like we're outta cash -- sorry buddy..."<p>If, on the other hand, you share that risk with me up front, thanks -- you're a good boss.
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mmaunder超过 13 年前
Two things:<p>1. They will sue. Medium to large - in fact any mature business, considers lawyers and the threat of lawsuits and litigation as a cost of doing business. They don't get emotionally involved, they just do it. FYI, looking at lawyers &#38; legal as cost of doing biz is a healthy attitude and may save you a heart attack.<p>2. Telling someone to just "fucking sue me" or simply "sue me" makes it combative and I made this beginner mistake early on in being a CEO. I actually simply asked their lawyer if he thought his case "actually has any merit?" in a cocky tone in a phone call. Turns out he thought it did. Once I had capable council on my side she had to work hard to make nice with the other side and bring it to settlement hours before we were irrevocably committed to litigating the issue.<p>Lets put it this way: Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone you signed an agreement with "just signed it"?
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tjmc超过 13 年前
This poor advice is like saying you can save money by not paying insurance premiums. Of course you can - until something goes wrong.<p>A better lawyer would have been able to amend that contract with minimal fuss. I used to get a legal briefing on the dodgy parts of the contracts I was asked to sign, along with sensible suggested changes that often benefited both sides (eg. termination clauses more appropriate to the length of the gig) I'd then send through the amended contract and discuss all the reasons for the changes with the client. Never had any problems.
mathattack超过 13 年前
I think his dad is a good advisor.<p>The reason he was hard to sue is that he's so small. If things went really South on a small project, what's the worst thing that happens? He's 22 and talented in New York - he declares bankruptcy, and gets another job or stays on Dad's couch. This is a situational thing - you can accept liability when the downside is so low. This is why legal departments in small firms are much gentler than legal departments in the Fortune 500. Of course this doesn't work for a large firm, or someone with 3 kids and a mortgage. His dad would have said, "Go get a real job" or something like that.<p>Similar on the hiring - when you're that small, you invite someone to take the risk for you. You can take more risk when there's limited downside. And in this case it was the other guy's downside - if there was no work, he'd be the one in trouble.
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dctoedt超过 13 年前
Here are some specific contract provisions that can cause real-world problems for your business. (Shameless plug: These are discussed, and illustrated with true stories, in my short e-book, <i>Signing a Business Contract: A Checklist for Greater Peace of Mind</i>, at <a href="http://www.ontechnologylaw.com/before-you-sign-a-business-contract-a-five-point-final-checklist-for-business-managers-and-executives/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ontechnologylaw.com/before-you-sign-a-business-co...</a>)<p>* Most-favored customer clauses<p>* Exclusive-rights provisions<p>* Indemnity obligations<p>* Automatic renewal<p>* Confidentiality obligations (or <i>no</i> confidentiality obligations)<p>* Termination for convenience<p>* Unilateral amendment rights<p>* Best-efforts obligations<p>* Assignment-consent requirements<p>* Non-compete / no-hire / no-solicitation clauses<p>* Tax consequences
nandemo超过 13 年前
&#62; Then there was the time I wanted to hire my first full time employee. I was apprehensive to do it because I only had enough money to pay him for 2 months, unless I got another client fast.<p>&#62; “Worry about that in 2 months,” Dad said.<p>This seems really dishonest. Yeah, everybody knows that startups are risky, but if you can't afford to pay more than 2 months of salary, then don't hire a full-timer. Either find a co-founder or hire a contractor instead.
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revorad超过 13 年前
I once rode a motorbike drunk, with a stranger sitting behind me. We didn't die. Lesson learnt: I got lucky.<p>I don't drive drunk any more :-)
SomeCallMeTim超过 13 年前
I still show my contracts to my lawyer, and sometimes really fight for certain clauses, but I'm realistic: Sometimes having a signed contract is more important to me than certain categories of unlikely risk mitigation.<p>If you have the luxury of leverage -- the ability and willingness to walk away if the contract isn't perfect -- then yes. Hammer it out to protect your interests.<p>But if the contract is critical to the company's survival, then he's right: Just sign it. It's better to have an income from an imperfect contract, then no company at all because you've run out of money.
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shawnee_超过 13 年前
The lesson here: it was 1998. "The industry" was still a little fledgling, so the legal territory was still largely unchartered. But it grew into an ugly duckling, quickly.<p><i>Sent the contract to my lawyer. She marked it up, sent it to the client. Then the client marked it up and sent it back to my lawyer. And so on, back and forth for almost a month.</i><p>Garbage in, garbage out. During the "ugly duckling" phase, the legal machine is just learning that it can spew garbage. It tests its limits. Just how much garbage can it spit before something happens? When the garbage is between private parties? Apparently, a lot.<p><i>I charged my first client $1,400. My second client paid $5,400. The next paid $24,000. I remember the exact amounts — they were the largest checks I’d seen up til that point.<p>Then I wrote a proposal for $340,000...</i><p>The Bust was just growing pains.<p>It probably could be reasonably argued that the industry is still in an ugly duckling phase (multi-Billion dollar valuations, <i>really?</i>)<p>But this is part of growing up.<p>In <i>Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace</i> Lessig writes:<p><i>It is a lack of a certain kind of regulation that produced the Y2K problem, not too much regulation. An overemphasis on the private got us here, not an overly statist federal government. Were the tort system better at holding producers responsible for the harms they create, code writers and their employers would have been more concerned with the harm their code would create. Were contract law not so eager to allow liability in economic transactions to be waived, the licenses that absolved the code writers of any potential liability from bad code would not have induced an even greater laxity in what these code writers were producing. And were the intellectual property system more concerned with capturing and preserving knowledge than with allowing private actors to capture and preserve profit, we might have had a copyright system that required the lodging of source code with the government before the protection of copyright was granted, thus creating an incentive to preserve source code and hence create a resource that does not now exist but that we might have turned to in undoing the consequences of this bad code. If in all these ways government had been different, the problems of Y2K would have been different as well.</i><p>[source: <a href="http://www.code-is-law.org/conclusion_excerpt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.code-is-law.org/conclusion_excerpt.html</a>]<p>This is dated (1999), but interesting. He was wrong about Y2K, of course, but not about the underlying issues and problems with contract law and IP.
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AJ007超过 13 年前
Linkbait. Some of my competitors write contracts specifically so that they can sue other companies. How about this, I fucking read my contracts and I don't sign bullshit.
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radarsat1超过 13 年前
Articles like this depress me, because in 1998, I totally knew how to make websites, but didn't know I could make money doing it. Instead I was 18 and doing what I was supposed to do, that is I was busy going to school, and now I'm 31 and still in school not making money. What's wrong with me? Sigh.
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TomGullen超过 13 年前
I think the lesson is here it's all fine and dandy until someone does sue you. Then it's a different story.
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jeremymcanally超过 13 年前
I agree with the sentiment of this point in general I think. Having counsel read every single contract and letting them wrestle directly with clients is probably a bad idea. Your lawyer will have only your interests in mind (or theirs, who knows?), and it probably won't lead to much productive happening. And even further, taking a few business law classes would be cheaper than using up tons of lawyer hours and probably net a better end result.<p>Anecdotally, At Arcturo, both myself and one of my principal guys have a good bit of contract reading experience (he much much more than myself). Every time I get a contract, I toss it to him and let him give me a thumbs up/down/comment. Having him around to handle reading things over and nit picking (often times to the point of having their lawyers concede points to us they hadn't addressed or thought of) has been awesome. If you can find someone who has a lot of business operations experience and can also hack code, they'll add a LOT of value to your company.
JoeyDoey超过 13 年前
Remember watching a vid (1) where Pud explicitly mentioned his mom being said lawyer and his dad (as mentioned in the article) being the entrepreneur. Wonder why he left that out this time. I certainly enjoyed the dichotomy know who his folks were and what role each played. (1) <a href="http://vimeo.com/25489184" rel="nofollow">http://vimeo.com/25489184</a>
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toast76超过 13 年前
Just change that one line "He was right. I got the job, they paid, things went well, nobody got sued." to "He was wrong. I got the job, they didn't pay, things went horribly wrong, everybody go sued".
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compay超过 13 年前
"Just be lucky like I was" is rather poor advice.
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wglb超过 13 年前
Well, your business may well not be like his business. First, it was all new then, and the first half of the swhoosh to the top.<p>But being of the conservative sort, I have generally had a lawyer review whatever contracts people want me to sign, firstly for him to explain what it really means--what are the actual risks. Even as a very young fellow in my first one with a contract, I knew enough that it was for me to make the business decision and for my lawyer to explain what the legal ins and outs were.<p>Then there was the fellow who liked to do negotiation by contract. It said that everything that I did they owned, probably back a year before I started, and that if I didn't perform the would take my house and my first born, but then on the second page they said that we are kidding about the house. And it was from a law firm that was bigger than most buildings, and Very Famous. But I pushed back and after a couple of cycles got things to be in a reasonable state.<p>In another long-term consulting contract negotiation, my lawyer's first response after reading it was one word "Egregious". Fortunately, I was able to hammer that into better shape. This was one where the contract was supposedly non-negotiable. I learned something there.<p>But in no world that I am familiar with does it make sense for the lawyer to do the negotiation. They (in all likelihood) don't understand your business as well as you do.<p>Even though I have been doing this for a while now, I wouldn't sign anything without a lawyer's review.<p>But I have also been at the other extreme, where there was no contract for a multi-year deal and it worked out well.<p>Use a lawyer, but use the lawyer wisely.
TWSS超过 13 年前
The interesting part of this from my perspective is "my dad - a lifelong entrepreneur."<p>I recently saw that pud is a year younger than me, and we entered the job market at almost the same time with similar skill sets. Why did it take me so goddamn long to pull my head out of my ass and finally start my own company (at 35)?<p>Perhaps pud's acceptance of risk has a genetic component, or at the very least he was brought up in an environment where he learned to adjust to uncertainty.<p>He credits laziness - but we all know that lazy + smart = effective. I wonder if that's part of entrepreneurial DNA as well...
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m0shen超过 13 年前
Sounds like the opposite advice to: <a href="http://www.vimeo.com/22053820" rel="nofollow">http://www.vimeo.com/22053820</a> (Fuck you, pay me).<p>Should have found a better lawyer.
EGreg超过 13 年前
If you are the small guy, then try to get YOUR document to be the starting point. Use YOUR law firm to write it. Go to a law firm and tell them to use something from a similar contract before.<p>If you expect there will be negotiations, basically try to use and re-use your standard document. You are going to be in this business for a while, hopefully. So you only have to pay for your standard document once. Plus you'll know the ins and outs of it better than anyone else.<p>I think the right solution these days is to insist on standard documents and focus on the amendments rather than getting something from scratch. There is a good list of documents to form startups, for example, here:<p><a href="http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/03/standardized-venture-funding-docs.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/03/standardized-venture-funding...</a><p>Similarly there are things at legalzoom and other places. I realize that sometimes the big company will insist on going with their standard contract, but if they were really that adamant, they wouldn't let you go back and forth with your lawyer too much. Just start with your own document or walk away if you don't want to take the risk.
officemonkey超过 13 年前
One of my favorite bosses was general counsel for a state government agency. She once told me that "no contract can ensure performance of someone of poor character."<p>Whenever I'm offered a contract, I boil it down like this: "Do I believe they'll hold up their end of the bargain?" If the answer is no, I do not sign the contract.
tici_88超过 13 年前
This sort of advise works great until they actually do sue. One of my biggest clients got recently sued by a long term client of his - a Fortune 100 company with all kinds of legal resources. My client had to shut down his business and then scramble to protect his personal assets like house, properties, etc.
ditojim超过 13 年前
sounds like your dad had faith in you, above all. don't misinterpret this as careless disregard for risk.
powertower超过 13 年前
TL;DR;<p>"Get lucky"... Then walk away with survivor bias.
nhangen超过 13 年前
I took something different from this article, which was that if you wait to do business until you have a sure thing, then you are waiting too long. Take advantage of opportunities, and figure out the details on thew way.
Iv超过 13 年前
&#62; I’m not sure what the lesson is here.<p>The lesson is : you were lucky. You are the prey to some people who look for people like you to sign a contract and then extort money. Saw that happen at a company I worked for.
EponymousCoward超过 13 年前
Not just a way to run a business, but a way to live life. Might not work for everyone, just as the opposite of whatever this strategy is may not work for everyone.
ja27超过 13 年前
The two contracts I spent the most time going back and forth with before signing were the two biggest wastes of my time. One was a ridiculous NDA with a paranoid guy with delusions that he had the world's best original idea which turned out to be worthless and obvious. The other was a decent gig but they tanked and ran out of cash before I ever got paid. It didn't matter how tight the contract was when there's no money there.
joshfraser超过 13 年前
You have to balance your risk and reward and take the biggest risks when you have little to lose. The riskiest thing you can do is play it safe.
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taariqlewis超过 13 年前
When there's nothing to lose, there's everything to gain, but when there's everything to lose, there's alot more lawyering that will keep yer nose clean if something eventually goes south. Get a lawyer when there's really something to lose.
nolliesnom超过 13 年前
Congrats on constructing the perfect troll for this community!
n9com超过 13 年前
This is really dangerous advice
nirvana超过 13 年前
I wish someone would write an expert system that works like his dad. Something that had some validation of what was a worthwhile risk and what was a risk that even if you tried to mitigate the risk really would still be a risk. (For instance, even if you had enough work to presume you could employ that employee for more than 2 months, that's not a guarantee. What if the contract with a customer was for 12 months, but 2 months in, right after staffing up, they just cancelled it and said "fucking sue me"? Kinda hard for the small startup to sue... and if they did, and they won, that win would be years after they had to let the employees go.)<p>You can't mitigate all risk, and being able to ignore the ones that you can't' do anything about is an important skill.<p>This goes for technical risk as well. I try not to over-architect. I spend a lot of time trying to decide which things need to be handled now, and which things can just be added later.
petegrif超过 13 年前
Great post. :)