Ask HN: Mistakes working with small local clients?

108 点作者 psikomanjak超过 3 年前

Hi, so I have been working with some very small local clients/businesses developing them websites and custom made internal software/tools and also providing hosting and support.What are some mistakes you have made down the road and what advice would you give to someone that just started?

33 条评论

Stronico超过 3 年前

I've done a fair amount of that - some mistakes I've made -1. Not getting money up front2. Extending credit3. Open ended meetings4. Being insufficiently explicit about what is being delivered5. Working on a handshake (seldom a problem with big clients actually) - get them to sign something6. Not actually meeting in person at least once7. Not being clear on who owns the code/technology (if you're going to do more or less the same thing for the person across the street then make sure to let the client know that they are getting a license (or something similar))8. Scheduling meetings in their downtime, but your worktime9. Not having a template, or even an idea of what a good referral would look like10. Having a specified finish line - much more important for the smaller client than the larger ones IME

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popemarijuanaxv超过 3 年前

Everything about working with small local clients is a mistake. I'm sorry, but it is. If you must, be very clear about what done means. Be very clear about who is responsible for maintenance after your job is done. If you don't, you will still get calls 8 years later to update the prices on the website, etc. Invoice absolutely everything. If you feel like a client is trying to get away with something, use an invoice to clarify that they can do so at X cost. I once billed someone $30,000 for an website update. I didn't get paid, but I never heard from them again. And by all means, don't work where you live. Ditto re: family/friend/friend of friends. Just don't. No money here. I dunno, just everything about this clientele screams avoid to me, especially their near complete inability to understand how much education goes into being able to do the sorts of things we can do with software, and therefore unable to understand why it costs so much or why they should pay even a 10th of it. Trying to pull money out of a small business is often tantamount to teeth-pulling, and a very large majority of small business owners work for themselves because no one wants anything to do with them, so choose who you work for very carefully. Sorry to spook you. Can you tell I've enjoyed my time in this space?

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mathattack超过 3 年前

There is a lot to be said about small clients being disproportionately less lucrative than large ones. (Large ones are used to higher rates and additional pay for scope changes)Getting past that, beyond what’s already been eloquently said by others…1 - Be explicit in writing about favors. (“I am doing this beyond the contract because…”)2 - If you turn a personal relationship into a business relationship, you may lose the personal relationship if the business side goes bad.3 - Diversify so you can afford to lose any one client.4 - Don’t be afraid to ask your worth. “Yes, $125/hr is fair, since it’s already a discount from the $150/hr that BigCo paid, and I have to fund my benefits and downtime” (Set your rate based on what else you would do with that time rather than by what they claim to be able to afford)4.5 - Bump the rate dramatically for small chunks of time.

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gwbrooks超过 3 年前

Meta-mistake that covers most small clients: Don't do business with people who are writing you a check out of their own pocket. Prospects that have a professional manager and a budget are a lot less hassle than Ed and Enid, who have to buy cheaper hamburger this month if they pay your invoice.Related: Admin and client hand-holding eat all the things; consider having fewer/larger clients.No matter what size your clients, don't sell one-off websites. Sell either a package of annual services or flat-out rent them a website you own.Clients are never happier than at the moment of delivery; that's the time to ask for referrals.You can almost never meaningfully raise your rates with a long-term client so start with high rates.Related: There's no reason in the world every client needs the same rate. The same piece of work you do may solve a $50k problem for one client and a $5 million problem for another; why would you charge them the same?I've seen some comments about providing as much detail as possible in invoicing, time tracking, etc. That's one way to do it but, in my experience, small clients want simplicity. Flat rate for a fixed scope, no time tracking and a one-line invoice.

josefresco超过 3 年前

I was a partner at a local web agency for 7 years. I have been running my own agency for 15 years. I've worked with hundreds of small local clients. I've launched hundreds of websites, small software projects as well as worked with these clients on marketing etc. I will be doing this for at least another 5 years. I'm successful, but I'm not rich. I work with my wife (who probably represents 65% of our revenue - she rocks), I've had employees in the past but currently don't and don't want them.If you want to chat, drop me an email (email in HN bio)1. Don't take on new services outside your wheelhouse just because "you can" which is common in tech.2. Don't charge clients using confusing terms.3. Get money up front, don't waste your time with people who want work on spec or propose weird payments terms.4. Don't hole up and avoid your phone/email.5. Don't be inconsistent. Have regular hours, pick up the phone, answer your emails and stick to it! Your local reputation will build and competitors will come and go.6. Working with a board of directors or a website "committee" is ALWAYS a nightmare. Price accordingly.7. Town/gov projects are a giant pain, but can mean solid recurring revenue.8. Don't waste time on huge RFPs. The longer the RFP, the less time I invest!9. Be weary of an entrenched local competitor who wants to "help you". I had a "retiring" competitor send me his worst clients and he didn't retire.10. If your fees are low, the clients that hire you at that low rate will never accept a higher rate.11. F*ck your NDA! Sorry this isn't Reddit, but avoid signing any and all non-disclosure agreements.12. Having an office helps. We started at home, and for 6 years worked "virtually". Meeting with local clients was a pain so we got an office. Huge difference in perception. I still like working from home better, but having the space to meet and impress benefits greatly (you can charge more).Final note: All my clients are business owners. It's really rewarding and enlightening to work with them. I learn so much, and teach them so much. The relationships I've made will last for years/decades. Also, after 21 years I can't wait to... not have clients!!!

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CaptainJustin超过 3 年前

The following is my opinion. Others may have a different take on these ideas.- Not charging enough from the start. Two clients accepted my rate way too fast.- Giving time estimates for every piece of work rather than price estimates. Price estimates allow to you to charge for the value you provide rather than being limited to the negotiated hourly rate. Some tasks take a great deal of expertise and provide massive value but take only a short time. Don't bill them by the minute for that. Bill by value.- Limit the number of changes they can make after completing a task or charge per hour after initial delivery. Some clients will take every opportunity to tweak something. It never ends. If that is happening on your (unbilled) time then your effective rate is falling with every new "quick change".- Don't hand over work until the payment experience for a new client looks to be in good faith, regular and business usual. I've heard a few stories from friends about serial-exploiters who churn through freelancers trying to get most of the work done for free.

h2odragon超过 3 年前

Be clear about the licenses / ownership of code you develop; a small business might not care but they still should. If you're developing their code do it hourly or by contract; if you're licensing them an instance of your code then you can invest more in it if you feel it worthwhile.No one is small enough not to need written terms.

honkycat超过 3 年前

When I opened a consulting firm, the biggest mistakes we made were always about saying yes instead of no:1. Taking on clients who did not have their shit together. They were always high maintenance, never satisfied with the work, and constantly trying to make huge changes.2. Taking on work that was beyond our ability to deliver on.3. The single biggest mistake we made was partnering with another firm who we let do discover and planning for us. They sent us over a client we were contractually obligated to do development work for, and two screenshots of a "website" and told to "have fun." IT WAS A NIGHTMARE.We once had a client, after we finished their website, ask: "OK, so now how do I make money off this?" and I was like... dude... that is not our job. That is yours.Another client had a really ambitious and fun project that included the need to develop 4g connected cameras and computer vision. I voted NO on the project. I felt like we did not have the expertise or the resources to take on the project in a way I felt comfortable with.My partners disagreed, and I was out-voted. This is what incited me to sell them my share of the company and leave. Honestly I'm not really sure how that project went. Maybe it was fine, who knows.

runako超过 3 年前

In addition to the excellent points made by others, I would add:1. Not using a real contract. Get something like hellobonsai.com if you don't have an attorney, but use a real contract. You're (probably) not going to end up in court, but if you do you will be glad you have a contract that lawyers understand.1a. Not being very specific in the scope of work. The scope of work must be referenced in the contract, and you must keep it up to date by adding additional scope as appropriate. In case of confusion or dispute, you can always refer the client back to the discussion you had about the scope of work and remind them that they signed off on it (yes, make them actually sign off on it).2. Not collecting a deposit up front. Depending on the size of the client, 50% of the first month's fees in advance might be appropriate. More might be smart, depending on the client. This is also a good qualifying step to filter out clients that only think they can afford your work. You then invoice as normal, with the goal of keeping the amount in retainer constant (FIFO for money). If you don't do this, you will eventually have to eat a $5k or $10k invoice that you need to pay your own bills. Better to use the customer's financial reserves than yours.3. Working with very small local clients at all. Working primarily with very small clients is a very risky way to run your business. If you insist, the absolute bare minimum you must do is have a real contract and collect a significant deposit up front.

300bps超过 3 年前

Many years ago I was a self-employed consultant that did work for a lot of small/medium sized clients.I would never want to do that again. The size of the client determines how much money they have to pay you before you owe them your first born child.Level 1 - Home Users. If they pay you $100, you better answer their calls within 30 seconds on a Sunday.Level 2 - Up to 10 employees. $1,000.Level 3 - 11 to 500 employees. $10,000.Level 4 - 500 to 1,000 employees. $50,000.Level 5 - 1,001+ employees. They just don't care. They can pay you $500,000 or even millions and if it blows up in their face they'll chalk it up as a "learning lesson".

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nicbou超过 3 年前

I did this in college. It was one of my favourite jobs. I learned a lot about business during that time.1. Competing on price. Stingy clients are very demanding.2. Competing tasks rather than solving problems. You should see the look on their face when you take a minute to fix some random IT problem.3. Not having a clear scope for larger projects. I was lucky but some of my friends had long stressful months because of it. Humans and developers have differing ideas of what "finished" means.4. Hosting clients. The responsibility is not worth the money. At some point you might want to do something else and you'll be stuck with lots of clients who depend on you.In the long run small clients are not sustainable. Big clients pay better and more consistently.

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eappleby超过 3 年前

Bite your tongue. I have worked with a fair amount of small websites and they can be the most demanding of your time, so it is important to set expectations and boundries, but even when they ask questions or make requests that seem unnecessary, I'd recommend that you do not be flippant or condescending in your replies. When I was first starting my business, I did this one time with a very small client and it led to a small wave of cancellation from other, bigger clients.

Karawebnetwork超过 3 年前

Soft skills are more important than technical skills. Set the tone of the relationship from the beginning. Don't let the client gradually become your boss; chances are they are used to being in a leadership position and you are used to being an employee. This can quickly fester and have a negative effect on the outcome of your project.

Arcanum-XIII超过 3 年前

1. Don't let the customer decide the deadline. 2. Don't accept to work for a fixed fee on code you don't own. It's per day or per week... and no promise. 3. Don't answer the customer outside your open office hour. Put some strict limits about your availability. 4. Rise your fee. As others already wrote here, the smaller the customer, the higher they will feel entitled about your work. 5. Have a written contract. Don't accept close you don't like because "we never use them". 6. Be annoying about the description of the job, and the definition of done.

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kazz超过 3 年前

Lot of good points already, but one that I've learned the hard way is never take on a "family" business as a client. You know the type of company where one brother is the CEO, another brother is the marketing director, random husbands and wives work for the company, etc.I've never had a relationship with a family business last beyond the scope of the initial project. Things always fall apart because of family infighting, or because every business decision ends up being way too personal/emotional for them. It's never worth the hassle, trust me.

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chaircher超过 3 年前

Be in tune with your local community. I get wind of problem clients AND problem partners or suppliers long before we're even on each others' radar.Try and surround yourself with people you trust so when someone says "xxxxxx is super unprofessional" you know they're being legit and they're not just trying to cover their own back or running saboutage.My main mistake was not paying attention to adjacent businesses and underestimating how destructive they can be. Who's in your office block? Who did you graduate with? Try and identify problem people in these groups and pivot away from them

jonathan_m超过 3 年前

I have operated a web business for 6 years now, and a few clients of my company could be considered "small local clients". If you enter into an agreement to do work for these types of clients, you have to understand that they're likely to see it through the lens of a long-term relationship regardless of if you see it that way. They WILL call you post-launch for help, they will be reaching out to you for months and years to come to help them out with various tasks related to their site.Knowing this, it's important to establish to the client from the beginning what your role will be post-launch. I have turned this into a lucrative source of (largely) passive income as I require clients to agree to at least a year of contracted monthly support. My contract is structured so that they owe the fee every month, regardless of whether they reach out for support or not. If you're thinking that most clients would never agree to this, I've yet to have a client that didn't. And the reality is most of the time they don't call for support, but the appreciate knowing that they can if something comes up.This is a win-win, they get the peace of mind knowing that they have someone who will help then when they need it, and you turn that into a stream of (largely) passive income. (This works for large clients too of course).

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eatonphil超过 3 年前

I did this for a bit and gave up. While you have a lot of freedom doing this it's just really risky working with small local companies. They are highly sensitive to price. In contrast one of the easiest/chillest ways to contract is to do by-the-hour for small software companies. They are not as sensitive to price because almost any rate you charge them under some amoung (say $150/hr doing 20-30 hours/week) is less than they'd pay for an experienced salaried dev when you include healthcare and all other costs for fulltime employees. And they can drop you whenever and vice versa.The big challenge I have is breaking into project-based work for good companies. Getting paid by the hour is easy and pays work but is really tiresome. You can't scale your work if you get paid by the hour. The only way to scale is getting paid by the project and taking more projects on (and eventually hiring people).

geocrasher超过 3 年前

I did web design and hosting for several in the early 2000's back in the web 1.0 days. Don't wait on the customer to meet deadlines. I'd ask the customer to give me something for their 'about us' page, and it would never happen. So I just started writing them myself. It worked out much better.Also don't leave anything to chance. Lay everything out explicitly. When the work is done, and they agree, then let them know that everything after this point is billable. Sign on it. You will get nickel and dimed to death otherwise!Lastly: <a href="https://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell" rel="nofollow">https://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell</a> <-- truth.

TheSpiciestDev超过 3 年前

Note: my income has never been dependent on local/small clients (small being <10 employees) such work has always been "extra income" for me or to build relationships with others.I've fixed bugs for free (if I failed to interpret requirements or made a mistake) but otherwise I would offer change orders for anything outside the agreed scope. Depending on the changes or how they fit into the existing work, these would possibly be discounted or free, especially if they are made early enough.That said, I've been solid and explicit in the agreed scope. This goes for every project or org/client, don't get me wrong, but I've found this is much more important with smaller orgs/clients.Otherwise there are a lot of great suggestions already made elsewhere in these threads. I haven't really ever had issues getting paid. I believe having a clear scope and asking clarifying questions also builds a better relationship (which I think contributes to better engagements, reduces other headaches, and leads to referrals!)

xupybd超过 3 年前

For small internal tools make sure you understand the business domain. Learn as much as you can about the process you're writing software for. Prioritize error handling over looks.Set expectations. Small businesses often expect you can do more for less. You're the expert you tell them how long something will take, don't allow them to set the expectation. Breakdown why it will take that sort of time.Keep all solutions as simple as possible. If you have an internal tool that only one or two administrators use, then chances are you don't need user management. Have one password to secure the app, or make it a desktop app. Maybe you don't need a GUI to report on data, could a monthly report emailed from the system do the same job at half the development time?The sales team will want reports on everything and can chew lots of time. Chances are management doesn't want this. Try to give data to them in Excel so they can manipulate the data.

JSeymourATL超过 3 年前

Missed opportunity: Not leveraging the work into repeatable, predictable revenue.The Challenge finding ‘Good Clients’, the ones who respect and appreciate what you do. The ones who pay well and on-time.Which is to say, learn how to qualify a good potential client upfront. Don’t be afraid to turn down opportunities that don’t match-up.

outsidetheparty超过 3 年前

The "working with small local clients at all is the mistake" part is already well-covered, so I'll add a secondary rule:Don't custom-build complicated websites for small local clients. Just don't. Most of them won't be able to maintain it over time - 90% of the time, even if they think they need and can afford your bespoke solution, what they _actually_ need is a simple hosted wix or squarespace instance or equivalent -- it may not look exactly like they imagine, but they'll be able to modify it and improve it and actually keep using it. Your bespoke solution is going to fall apart the first time they tweak something and hit a trivial syntax error they're not equipped to repair.Scale the complexity of the solution to the capabilities of the client who's paying for it.

zerkten超过 3 年前

The other posts so far cover all the immediate mistakes I've seen first hand. If you can use new tech on these jobs it'll also keep your skills up. If you are banging out similar things with the same tech it can be stagnating.I'd ask yourself if your goal is to keep working with small clients, or pivot to making products for this audience? It's good experience and satisfying to be doing what you are doing, but it can be limiting over the long-term if you are the one doing all the work with limited reuse. As life changes you may find that it's a struggle to work with small clients and having a product, or something that's largely a product, will help you be able to put things on autopilot.Good luck!

spaetzleesser超过 3 年前

My biggest mistake: Doing things for free as a favor because you are reluctant to charge . Even if it feels weird always get paid for your work. Your local plumber or lawyer also don't do things for free. You are running a business and not a friendship.

subpixel超过 3 年前

The mistake is to work for a small client instead of talking to dozens and building something that suits their needs that can also be sold to thousands via a platform or theme marketplace.Build storemapper.com not a feature that does the same thing for one or two clients.

alserio超过 3 年前

The effort required for the maintenance of many small projects is way more than that required for a big project with the same total cost. Customization of a product doesn't scale very well with time

Overtonwindow超过 3 年前

Very early in my career, I found working with local clients can be vastly improved by having a detailed scope of work, milestones, expectations, and budget. Never enough detail. I found being local to clients creates a relationship very different from distant clients, and anything you can do to build trust, transparency, etc. ahead of the work, the better. The more detailed my scope of work, the less scope creep I had.

rossdavidh超过 3 年前

1. pay as you go (much more likely than a larger client to actually not have the money even though they thought they would, or to go out of business entirely with little notice) 2. they don't have as much experience with how tech projects go, so you need to manage expectations more

micromacrofoot超过 3 年前

Never ever do anything for free. Ever. Once you open that door you are screwed.

is_true超过 3 年前

I work with small local news orgs and I made the classic mistake of trying to please everyone, when it known that you should know your limits when providing custom features

darau1超过 3 年前

"If it isn't in writing, it wasn't said". This is true no matter the size of the client. This is even part of an internal MOU at my current employer lol

xtiansimon超过 3 年前

Treat customers like their time is valuable—keep it short and sweet and to the point. Many small businesses owners are very busy.