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Putting Ideas into Words

209 点作者 prtkgpt超过 3 年前

27 条评论

dbrueck超过 3 年前
On a small scale, this is exactly why when I&#x27;m stuck on a development problem (an elusive bug or trying to hammer out a good design), a thorough email about it to a colleague often provides the breakthrough. Because you&#x27;re taking up a co-worker&#x27;s time &amp; energy, it motivates you to lay out the problem with the right amount of context, walk through some of the tradeoffs or things you&#x27;ve considered, etc.<p>And it&#x27;s not unusual at all for the email to never get sent - among my closest co-workers we&#x27;ll often tell each other something like, &quot;I couldn&#x27;t figure out how to fix XYZ so I wrote you a long email about it, fixed the problem, and deleted the email&quot;.<p>(the downside is that once you&#x27;ve experienced this a few times, crummy problem reports from others kind of drive you crazy)
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kashyapc超过 3 年前
I find this much better than PG&#x27;s previous essay, &quot;write simply&quot;[1], even if I don&#x27;t agree with all of it (e.g. see <i>jasode</i>&#x27;s comment[2]).<p>Meanwhile, at work I&#x27;ve been trying to encourage the habit of writing a 2-4 page &quot;memo&quot; when conveying critical decisions. It&#x27;s proving difficult to root out the impulsive habit of &quot;let&#x27;s put together a shoddy slide deck with broken thoughts, and hurry through it on a call&quot;.<p>When we&#x27;re all remote, whether you like it or not, people <i>will</i> judge you by your words. And when you&#x27;re not writing code, most of what you do is writing: design documents, proposals for budget, Git commit messages, feature requests, usage guides, investigative reports, synthesizing complex discussion threads into useful summaries, technical presentations, email, and synchronous chat. Not least of all, robust writing skills allow you to &quot;defend&quot; your arguments with nuance and concede with grace.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=26427773" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=26427773</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30314144" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30314144</a>
jasode超过 3 年前
<i>&gt;You have to pretend to be a neutral reader who knows nothing of what&#x27;s in your head, only what you wrote. [...] If you make an effort, you can read your writing as if you were a complete stranger, and when you do the news is usually bad.</i><p>Disagree on that because of <i>The Curse of Knowledge</i>: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Curse_of_knowledge" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Curse_of_knowledge</a><p>The various attempts at explaining <i>&quot;monads&quot;</i>, <i>&quot;web3&quot;</i>, <i>&quot;Kubernetes&quot;</i>, etc will still leave many smart readers exclaiming <i>&quot;I still don&#x27;t get it.&quot;</i><p>PG&#x27;s own essays (e.g. wealth inequality) have been misinterpreted in HN threads.
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akprasad超过 3 年前
As someone who writes, I can relate to a lot of this, but there are aspects that aren&#x27;t true to my experience.<p>&gt; If you make an effort, you can read your writing as if you were a complete stranger<p>Somewhat. Through effort I can take on a more objective perspective, but there is no platonic stranger I could pick out. Everyone has his own context and his own needs. What I try to do instead is visualize people I know who are not close friends. I think &quot;What would X think if she were reading this?&quot;<p>&gt; If he&#x27;s not satisfied because you failed to mention x or didn&#x27;t qualify some sentence sufficiently, then you mention x or add more qualifications<p>I think this game is endless. There will always be a nitpicker (Hello!). I try to say enough to show that I know what I&#x27;m talking about, but beyond that I find that it chokes the broader point that I want to make.<p>~<p>For me, the real value is that writing makes language almost physical. What would normally vanish in a moment in speech becomes something you can touch, sculpt, and rearrange. And in doing so you&#x27;re forced to contend with the form of it and really think through every word, and every train of thought (&quot;Is this really what I want to say? Is this really how I should say it?&quot;). I think this can be done in speech as well if you&#x27;re in a true debate with someone who cares about language, but it&#x27;s much harder.<p>And depending on your temperament, there&#x27;s a &quot;those who can&#x27;t do teach&quot; problem where writing about something makes you feel like an expert on it. As always, the important thing is to act.
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goldfeld超过 3 年前
It seems like a quantum effect of our consciousness, &#x27;putting the ideas into words changed them&#x27;. It&#x27;s a perpetual chase after wording, and when you reach the post, it&#x27;s already far-off again. This thought sheds some insight not only only on semiology and systems of symbols in human language, but into what I&#x27;ve been learning writing poems, and why it&#x27;s so much fun to do it, I think, because the goal of the expression is changed, or heightened, by the act of reaching or moving to it. So it&#x27;s sometimes, or very often for certain comparisons, more involved than programming, in terms of working memory.<p>On the topic of essay writing, the book Writing Under Pressure: The Quick Writing Process is a 60&#x27;s university professor gem and fully informed me as to how I approach writing (and reading) nonfiction, anything which has an argument, a thesis, points to make. It turns the random churn of paragraphs into a pragmatic scientific method.
persona超过 3 年前
&gt; Putting ideas into words doesn&#x27;t have to mean writing, of course. You can also do it the old way, by talking. But in my experience, writing is the stricter test.<p>As pg brings it up, writing is one of the many ways to shape ideas and even change them. But I wouldn’t go so far to say it’s the stricter test.<p>Each way of expressing and sharing ideas will test it in different ways. Writing may look for conciseness, flow and completeness while talking about it can validate ideas for collaborative building.<p>Going a step forward, I’d suggest that putting Ideas into Action IS the stricter test.
default-kramer超过 3 年前
I agree with a lot of it, except for this: &quot;And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.&quot; I guess it depends your definitions of &quot;nontrivial&quot; and &quot;fully formed idea&quot;. But consider all the experienced auto mechanics in the world. Few of them have written anything about it, but I&#x27;m sure I would judge most of them to have fully-formed ideas about a nontrivial topic. To generalize, I&#x27;m claiming that experience can give you fully-formed ideas whether you write or not (although writing will probably help).
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lifeisstillgood超过 3 年前
&#x27;Writing is nature&#x27;s way of telling us how lousy our thinking is.&#x27;<p>- Leslie Lamport<p>I am finding more and more intelligent people have been able to coalesce my thinking into smaller and smaller parts. I am beginning to accept meritocracy is brutal.
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rschneid超过 3 年前
&gt;And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.<p>I think this argument misses a potentially deeper point about the true magical power of reading...<p>I did resonate with the majority of the piece, however.
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TameAntelope超过 3 年前
A pg essay is a work of modern art these days; I think he distills so much that it ends up taking a real effort to reconstruct meaning out of what’s left.<p>Let’s see if I got the message:<p>* writing is difficult.<p>* writing about a topic forces you to test your knowledge of that topic.<p>* you often learn about the topic, and that often changes how you view that topic.<p>* the reader should write more with the explicit purpose of learning about a topic.<p>And the killer point:<p>* if you haven’t written about a topic, you can’t know it well.<p>I wonder if writing comments on websites counts.
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slowmovintarget超过 3 年前
&quot;Writing is thinking. To write well is to think clearly. That’s why it’s so hard.&quot; ~David McCullough
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simplegeek超过 3 年前
&gt; And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.<p>Harsh. Socrates didn&#x27;t write his ideas, a counter example that immediately popped up in my head.
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d--b超过 3 年前
Paul Graham seems like a good guy, but sometimes he drops far-reaching low-quality statements like:<p>&gt; And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.<p>That’s a ridiculously strong opinion.<p>I don’t know what the purpose of it is. Shaming people who don’t write much? Making himself feel good because he does write?<p>Paul: if you’re reading this, will you please tone the conclusions a bit down ? It’ll make you a better writer.
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diego超过 3 年前
&gt; And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.<p>This would imply that Socrates only had trivial ideas. Socrates would disagree with this statement, and so would a large number of people. This belief seems like a cognitive bias to me. If you prefer written ideas, unwritten ideas may seem trivial to you.
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robrenaud超过 3 年前
&gt; And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial.<p>This is harsh. As someone who struggled with writing text a lot, I seriously considered dropping out of state U and going to Devry for an IT degree freshman year to avoid mandatory writing classes. I still graduated with a 3.9 as I was able to focus on CS&#x2F;math and get passed the writing pre-reqs. I thoroughly enjoyed the more advanced math and theoretical CS classes, where I was spending good chunks of the weekend writing proofs. I can imagine that one gets a similar kind of understanding and joy from writing a good textual argument as writing a good proof.
kwhitefoot超过 3 年前
Firefox tells me:<p>&quot;Web sites prove their identity via certificates. Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for paulgraham.com. The certificate is only valid for the following names: <i>.store.yahoo.com, </i>.csell.store.yahoo.net, <i>.store.yahoo.net, </i>.us-dc1-edit.store.yahoo.net, <i>.us-dc1.csell.store.yahoo.net, </i>.us-dc2-edit.store.yahoo.net, <i>.us-dc2.csell.store.yahoo.net, store.yahoo.com, store.yahoo.net, </i>.stores.yahoo.net, stores.yahoo.net<p>Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN&quot;<p>Does anyone else see this?
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arepublicadoceu超过 3 年前
Kinda off-topic:<p>Can someone more knowledgeable than me on the inner workings of the web explain why Paul Graham website is one of the few(only?) website that I go where absolutely NO reader mode works? I&#x27;ve tried firefox, chrome, edge.<p>I have no idea how web dev works but it seems to me that his web page looks like it was made in the late 90s or early 00s and it&#x27;s almost all buttons and text. Why, oh why it&#x27;s the only website that I go that defies my reader mode?<p>Sincerely,<p>Someone who can only read more than one paragraph of text on reader mode.
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marmot777超过 3 年前
When I’ve writing about something, I do find that my comprehension levels up. Part of it is writing forces a systematic treatment of a topic, revealing knowledge gaps, or even that I’m flat out wrong about something.<p>That burst of intense focus on something does seem to stimulate the ability to make connections you hadn’t made before. I suspect part of this is because your unconscious mind is being flooded and gets to work making connections even when you’re taking a break.
ar_imani超过 3 年前
In my experience, writing down doesn&#x27;t help me develop new idea, but exploring new ways to support it or explain process as straightforward as it should be, which I can not do in my head or real-time conversation. As the author says, it takes lots of time and effort to put yourself in a stranger&#x27;s mind.
lifeisstillgood超过 3 年前
I often bang on about Software as a form of literacy. And I have noticed recently that it is actually harder for me at work to express my thoughts in English than just to damn well write some code.<p>I cannot work out if this is my English is declining or my coding is improving.
gashmol超过 3 年前
If you substitute writing with developing software (or prototyping) and ideas with requirements then you get great advice for making something users want. It even suggest the practice of checking requirements to be precise and complete. Intersting.
xorencrypted超过 3 年前
The juxtaposition of a comment next to code best illustrates the real advantage natural language has. It&#x27;s pretty good at moving the mind of the reader into the state intended. To convey information concisely. but isn&#x27;t always right
smlckz超过 3 年前
What else can be done about it instead of building things, writing down or talking?
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hamiltonians超过 3 年前
what if you are capable of conveying your ideas in words but no one likes your content
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mikewarot超过 3 年前
&gt;In precisely defined domains it&#x27;s possible to form complete ideas in your head. People can play chess in their heads, for example. And mathematicians can do some amount of math in their heads, though they don&#x27;t seem to feel sure of a proof over a certain length till they write it down. But this only seems possible with ideas you can express in a formal language.<p>For me, at least, programming falls into this category of writing. The difference, however, is that when you&#x27;re programming, you have <i>three audiences</i> to satisfy. They are, the <i>compiler</i> (or interpreter), the <i>problem</i> to solve, and other <i>programmers</i>. Over time, the writing becomes part of a conversation, as I&#x27;ll explain below.<p>The compiler, the first audience, is the one that beginning programs bang their heads against the most. It can have any number of arcane and complex rules and interactions to learn about, and practice, before you can reliably get the compiler to accept your work as valid.<p>The problem is the audience we&#x27;re paid to satisfy. It requires that you end up with a workable answer given workable inputs. Satisfying it requires getting to know it a bit, then reaching back into your toolkit of tricks to get just the right set of algorithm and code. It&#x27;s more of a conversation, that settles down into an agreed upon text. As time goes on, the details become nuanced, and the corner cases handled.<p>The third audience is the humans who read the program, and those in the future (including yourself!) who might want to join the conversation. All of these people need to be able to read, and adjust, the agreed upon text, or copy it to use for some other problem. As you go, the more you keep this third audience in mind, the easier it is for them to join or even rejoin the conversation.<p>Reviewing, there are aspects of these audiences to note:<p>The compiler is fairly easy to satisfy, you can bang away at possibilities and tweak the code until it agrees that your words are valid. Then you can keep tweaking until you make it happy.<p>Note however, that the compiler can be capricious, it can radically change it&#x27;s opinion of your work over time. Many a story as been written here about the shock of finding that certain words or phrases are newly irritating to the compiler, or just plain unacceptable. Python is said to have gone through this phase between v2 and v3.<p>The problem can change as well. New requirements of a wide variety can result in the need to revise the agreed upon text.<p>The third audience can vary widely. It can be just yourself for a very short time in response to a homework or programming contest problem. It can be your coworkers, past present and future. It can be the world, if the work is open source and widely useful. It can be the users of a library, who will focus narrowly on the interface you provide, while only some dare to peek at the implementation.<p>I find that the more I keep all three audience in mind, the better the outcome. Thank you Paul for the writing prompt. 8)
dybber超过 3 年前
No HTTPS?
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VoodooJuJu超过 3 年前
&gt;And someone who never writes has no fully formed ideas about anything nontrivial<p><i>The unintelligible is not necessarily unintelligent</i><p>-Nietzsche<p>And in this particular piece, Mr. Graham&#x27;s hyper-intelligibility seems to manifest as pseudo-intelligence.
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