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Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

422 点作者 kerneloftruth大约 3 年前

29 条评论

boomboomsubban大约 3 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;9ANBY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;9ANBY</a>
ipnon大约 3 年前
It&#x27;s discrimination any way you slice it. You can&#x27;t lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It&#x27;s not enough to say you can learn calculus just as well at the University of Massachusetts.<p>&quot;Here we find our first indication of the strength of preferences for underrepresented minority students. African-American students have nearly an 80 percent better chance of being admitted than their white counterparts, while the Hispanic advantage is reflected in almost 50 percent higher odds compared to whites. By contrast, Asian applicants and those from other races face lower odds of admission on the order of 17 or 18 percent—in relation to comparable whites.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scholar.princeton.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;tje&#x2F;files&#x2F;admission_preferences_espenshade_chung_walling_dec_2004_full.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scholar.princeton.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;tje&#x2F;files&#x2F;...</a>
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tyjen大约 3 年前
I&#x27;m a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes.<p>I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is important; but, when emphasizing race to the degree that these academic institutions are, isn&#x27;t this leading to representation disparities within the racial categories themselves? The racial categories are a very American centric and limited term, and arguably rooted largely as social constructs that loosely define the ethnic populations they cover. For example, and I don&#x27;t mean any offense or to call any group out specifically, Koreans are overrepresented compared to Cambodians at the academic institutions listed in the article per their population proportion. This doesn&#x27;t seem to be captured and accounted for under the current system. The same underlying disparity potentiality applies to whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc...<p>The interpretation being, that it&#x27;s a sort of half-committed approach to equity that isn&#x27;t really leading to equitable outcomes if that makes sense, and may even be exacerbating ethnic marginalization within the racial categories.<p>Another question is, if this isn&#x27;t leading to genuine equity of outcomes and instead passing discriminatory behavior onto smaller, marginalized ethnic groups, what do you do then? Do you revisit implementing an improved meritocracy system, or implement an equity based system with greater accuracy and precision to prevent this?<p>This doesn&#x27;t even begin to tackle the issues current racial categorization creates with multiracial people and the essence of &quot;purism.&quot;
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rayiner大约 3 年前
I attended TJ, back when it was about 30% Asian. I’ve always felt like the school should do more to get more underrepresented minorities. I’ve found the recent efforts very off-putting however.<p>It’s based on a modern strain of social justice ideology that adopts some very ugly assumptions about Asians. I’m reminded of Alison Collins in San Francisco, who called Asians “house n—-ers” and said they use “white supremacist thinking to get ahead.” <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;missionlocal.org&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;alison-collins-school-board-tweets" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;missionlocal.org&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;alison-collins-school-board...</a>.<p>Not everybody out and says stuff like this, obviously, but I sense the sentiment lurking under the surface in a lot of modern social justice discourse. In order to fit Asian economic success into their framework of “white supremacy” they end up making some extremely offensive assumptions. For example I’ve seen respectable articles arguing that the “model minority” stereotype arises from white people “allowing” Asian to be successful, to use them as a “wedge” against other minorities. I’ve been told to my face that Asians aren’t “grateful” enough to Black people for the Civil Rights movement and we “owe them.”<p>You see a form of this in particular the discussion around TJ. For example, opponents of merit-based admissions act like test prep is basically cheating, and elevate its effectiveness to mythic proportions. I prepped for the TJ test and SAT. It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. Not private tutoring—six or eight kids crowded around a small dining room table doing practice problems. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? And they act like the cost makes it unattainable for anyone else. But it’s a few thousand dollars if that (as low as under $1,000) which is reachable to all but destitute families. My uncle does math tutoring in Canada. His students are all immigrant kids from the high rise subsidized housing complex where he lives with my aunt and cousin. (My cousin lived there until he got his engineering degree and MBA and moved to a nice apartment in Toronto.)<p>The modern social justice folks blame all economic disparities on white people, and thus don’t even have the intellectual tools to explain what’s happening with Asians except through some distasteful assumptions.
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ayngg大约 3 年前
I feel like these affirmative action policies are attacking the wrong aspect of scholastic achievement that doesn&#x27;t need to be addressed as urgently as other problems in the system. These policies benefit students that are already having some degree of success, but they don&#x27;t help the students that really need help, the students that have serious trouble with their education like those described in [1]. Those students are basically pushed through via no child left behind and then graduate (or drop out) and immediately fall through the cracks of society into a poverty trap that is very difficult to escape without a real education, skills or opportunity. I think this is the place where the most gains are possible which can then lay the foundation for improving communities that seem perpetually stuck in poverty. In comparison, those getting into a top institution via AA would most likely experience some degree of success even if AA didn&#x27;t exist.<p>For those that benefit from AA to get into elite institutions, this can paradoxically end up being harmful as they are often thrown into the deep end where they have to compete with peers that are the brightest in the world since they have had to go through all of the supplementary development necessary to compete with the best of the best to get accepted [2].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;foxbaltimore.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;project-baltimore&#x2F;city-student-passes-3-classes-in-four-years-ranks-near-top-half-of-class-with-013-gpa" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;foxbaltimore.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;project-baltimore&#x2F;city-student...</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;national&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2012&#x2F;10&#x2F;the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action&#x2F;263122&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;national&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2012&#x2F;10&#x2F;the-pai...</a>
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jpgvm大约 3 年前
So they should. Anything other than an objective standardized test is just asking for bias.<p>Australia gets by just fine with standardized testing only, don&#x27;t see why America can&#x27;t as well.<p>If you make the cut then you can qualify for scholarships if you are disadvantaged because of means, etc.<p>To be fair though Australia is overall more equal in terms of schooling outcomes but to pretend that it&#x27;s a university&#x2F;college problem that the rest of the schooling system is fucked is preposterous. By the time someone is at the age to go into university the damage has been done.<p>Give the spots to those that deserve them because of ability. It&#x27;s not the job of the school to rebalance society that is the governments problem.
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dandare大约 3 年前
I know this is a controversial topic, but the very same is happening when IT companies deliberately hire and promote women to increase diversity. Like race, gender is an immutable characteristic and if you target it to positively discriminate one individual you negatively discriminate the other individual.<p>HR departments have measures and targets to report on and they will find a way to make their bosses happy.
supernova87a大约 3 年前
Two points:<p>1. For all the logical&#x2F;social contortions, judgment calls, distorted selection standards, tuning, and subjective assessments involved to create the &quot;desired&quot; class of students (thousands and thousands of hours of applications, reading, discussion by admissions officers, students writing essays that emphasize their overcoming disadvantage)... how much better an outcome or result does this create than simply allowing some objective standard to dictate who gets in, or random selection above a certain bar?<p>Is there any way to say how much better we do for so much effort? Other countries apply strict bars for admissions -- do they do worse? Why do we think that this produces any much better outcome? Is it just to make us <i>feel</i> better?<p>2. By what principle are administrators of universities limiting their actions or extent of tuning? Do they apply this believed solution to university admissions just because that is their domain and have it under their control? What makes them think that <i>this</i> is the solution to inequality? And if this is the solution, why are they so meek about it and don&#x27;t instead completely overemphasize every group that needs more representation?<p>How do they know when they&#x27;ve achieved the goal? How do they know whether a new goal needs to be set? When &quot;equality&quot; on some dimension is achieved, will that be the end of it? Is there an end to this? Will other groups be not so lucky to get such attention when their turn comes?<p>Unsatisfactory answers to all these questions make me not support how AA is implemented in the US.
_xander大约 3 年前
I think this is just a logical conclusion of the US&#x27;s wider mentality towards higher education. It seems to me that the US considers the main purpose of a high quality college education is to produce good economic and cultural elites. Thus, the focus for these colleges is on identifying and fostering &#x27;good citizens&#x27; - those that have the highest potential to be shaped into a well-rounded and ethical stewards of this economic and cultural capital. It follows that these citizens are to be drawn from and reflect the diversity of the US.<p>I suppose the thing that&#x27;s odd is that - uh - education and academics feels very secondary in all of this?<p>For example, for college admissions in my country (the UK), you take national subject-orientated coursework and exams at age 16 and 18 on topics like History or Chemistry, write an essay about the subjects you want to study at university and then maybe have an extra exam or interview that&#x27;s run by the university. And we&#x27;re not even a particularly academics-driven culture. I&#x27;m sure other commenters can more succinctly describe the US college admissions process, but it really does seem to elevate the importance of (1) extra-curriculars + cultural + social action (2) high school class grade percentiles (3) standardised &#x27;IQ-adjacent&#x27; testing and (4) motivations and outlook. What&#x27;s missing from this list is identifying and developing the next top wave of scholars that might have a narrow but deep interest in an academic field.
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hunglee2大约 3 年前
Not the main point but &#x27;Asian&#x27; is also way too big - and includes many groups who are as disadvantaged as any other ethnic group in the US. What they really mean is East Asian (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese) and South Asian (mainly Indians) but I am assuming kids from Hmong, Nepali etc ethnicity will also be graded down on this basis. Gross unfair in the overall case, but egregiously so in this specific context
endisneigh大约 3 年前
the problem is and always has been that the particular school you attend has too much weight, irrespective of ability or aptitude. if college admissions were <i>high school blind</i> then this wouldn&#x27;t even matter to begin with. simply being great, regardless of which school you attend would be enough.<p>re: TJH admissions:<p>&gt; In 2020, during the summer after George Floyd’s death, the Virginia state government announced that it would be requiring schools to step up their efforts in diversity. Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand’s response was fairly simple. To create a new, broader admissions pool, he proposed eliminating the $100 application fee, the standardized test, and teacher recommendations in favor of a “merit lottery.” The district would be carved into regions, and each region would be given 70 seats in the incoming TJ class. As long as you applied and had the minimum required GPA of 3.5, you would have as good a chance at getting in as any other student from your group.<p>What exactly is the problem with this?
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swframe2大约 3 年前
When Dartmouth accepted women they increased the class size so they still admit the same number of men. It seems like a good compromise. I&#x27;m sure it is not perfect but I think it should be better than holding the class size fixed.<p>(Note that many school buildings are quite old. A school could replace their smallest buildings with larger ones so as to not need more land. Furthermore, this is something alumni can make happen by stipulating it with their donations; no need to go to court.)
yibg大约 3 年前
This seems very much related to the equal opportunity vs equal outcome debate. Affirmative action seems to be very much about equal opportunity. What I don&#x27;t quite understand is why the fixation on race? Why not on family income or any number of other parameters that impacts education, future earning potential etc?
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j7ake大约 3 年前
Would it be more fair to weight applicants by household income rather than race?<p>For example, given two equally strong applicants, but one is from upper class and the other lower class, it seems clear that the lower class applicant is stronger, because they were able to achieve similarly with fewer resources.
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giantg2大约 3 年前
It seems ridiculous that we are denying opportunities to people who have worked hard and done well on the objective measures.<p>Especially when it comes to public schools, the opportunities should be equal. Set objective criteria for acceptance, advanced placement, etc. Then stick to it. We shouldn&#x27;t be holding opportunities away from someone because if their heritage, or someone else&#x27;s heritage.<p>We have a STEM academy in our area that&#x27;s based on effort and interest. It will only take maybe 7% of the students from the overall student population for those grades. It&#x27;s based on essays and teacher recommendations. You only need a C average to qualify grade-wise. It seems completely subjective. A coworker was trying to get their kid in and it sounded like a nightmare. If this opportunity isn&#x27;t based on some objective measure and doesn&#x27;t constitute an advance placement (C average in the regular track), then make this opportunity available for all who want it! If demand outpaces capacity, then either set objective measures or make it a lottery. Denying some kid an opportunity because you <i>feel</i> like they don&#x27;t want it as much as some other kid, or you <i>feel</i> they don&#x27;t work as hard, is BS.
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alfor大约 3 年前
Take a look at the book Live not by lies to understand what is coming.<p>We used to value truth and individual responsibilities and we are moving in the direction of group&#x2F;class thinking.<p>Judging people by the ’group’ or race they belong is going to end badly, I wonder if there is examples where this thinking lead to good outcomes.
niemandhier大约 3 年前
It is easy to rage against perceived injustice, but maybe this is just a case of &quot;All predictors become bad if they become the target&quot;?<p>In the end the goal of admission processes is to select a certain type of individual. Since some degree of objectivity is needed they created a system that tried to select the desired people based on objectively measurable factors.<p>Maybe a subset of the american asian culture is over fitting the used predictors, so that in the end the process is not selecting the correct type of person anymore, and they just don&#x27;t know how to fix it.
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rg111大约 3 年前
This is a sad case of Goodhart&#x27;s Law playing into reality.<p>People in power have chosen one metric as a measure of progress of historically oppressed races- enrolment in college degrees.<p>And that is costing <i>everyone</i> dearly.
Foobar8568大约 3 年前
Napoleon Bonaparte roughly once said that elite education was to important to let it available for the mass.
xiaodai大约 3 年前
I once mentioned something like Asian groups have a much tougher time and the guy just went &quot;well, then why stay here? just go back to China&quot; then he laughed and walked away.
hownottowrite大约 3 年前
As far as Thomas Jefferson High School goes, this is a multi-decade issue. The Washingtonian covered it well in 2017 and it’s only gotten more complex since then: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonian.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;04&#x2F;26&#x2F;is-the-no-1-high-school-in-america-thomas-jefferson-fairfax-discrimination&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonian.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;04&#x2F;26&#x2F;is-the-no-1-high-sc...</a>
vertnerd大约 3 年前
If you have an admission process based on a standardized test and everyone named &quot;Smith&quot; decides to game the system by prepping heavily for the test then you will have a lot of students named &quot;Smith&quot; in your school. The answer is not to create a quota for people named &quot;Smith&quot;. The answer is to create admission criteria that are not easily gamed.
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Kharvok大约 3 年前
People find the truth that standardized testing and school placement is mostly expressive of IQ uncomfortable. IQ is mostly genetic. When this doesn&#x27;t evenly distribute across people groups people find it problematic. Again, this truth is uncomfortable.<p>North east Asians in the US at or below the poverty line score better on average on the SAT than African-Americans from households with incomes above 100k. If there was a socioeconomic lever to pull we should pull it. The evidence says there is not.<p>Look it up.<p>I don&#x27;t think we can create true equitable solutions until we get past these myths that everyone is just the right environmental conditions away from high academic achievement.
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mollerhoj大约 3 年前
You have to turn the argument on its head: We&#x27;re not trying to achieve equality of representation of races because it would be racist not to do so (if anything its actually racist to admit entrance based on race). We&#x27;re trying to achieve equal representation because not having it feeds rasist thinking (its becomes too easy to assume peoples level of education based in their race).
cudgy大约 3 年前
&gt; They don’t like the way unions leveraged a pandemic to put their members’ interests ahead of the children’s.<p>This seems like a cheap shot. I assume the article is mentioning teacher’s unions, which should logically prioritize the teacher’s interests over children’s. Don’t they exist to advocate for teachers and not students by definition?
carrionpigeon大约 3 年前
Our institutions reflect our public discourse, and right now, discourse is dominated by race. When it comes to school admissions, the elite schools and colleges want to see their students in places of influence and power. It helps attract more talented students, helps grow their influence networks, and attracts donations and other sources of large sums of money.<p>Ivy league and other top-tier schools dominate placements in industry, the Supreme Court, and public institutions. When race is a factor for consideration (e.g. Biden only considered black women for the Court vacancy), it will be a factor for these schools. If they instead accepted based on standardized test scores and became 50-60 percent Asian, it would mean that most of their students (by virtue of being Asian) would get shut out of positions of influence and power. Those positions would instead be filled by students from other schools.<p>One must always remember that elite schools exist to grow their own prestige. An honest hard-working student at Harvard Medical School who then opens a small private practice in his hometown, doing good for his community and his family, is, in the eyes of the elite, a waste of an education. These schools want students with talent and ambition who will be well-placed to change the world.<p>On the other hand, for lower-tier schools, I see little justification (from their perspective, not from a universalist ethical point of view) borderline-quota affirmative action policies.
chernevik大约 3 年前
Set standards, let people meet them, and don&#x27;t worry about what they look like.
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TeeMassive大约 3 年前
What is the mainstream Progressive justification for discriminating against Asians?
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AnnikaL大约 3 年前
The article is behind a paywall :(
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