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Entitlement issues (2009)

85 点作者 tta大约 3 年前

25 条评论

imgabe大约 3 年前
I remember when this came out. I agree with the sentiment, but I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Sure, they didn&#x27;t <i>owe</i> it to you, but it&#x27;s still a shitty thing to do.<p>Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. Hey, I&#x27;m not your bitch! They might say. No, but they said they&#x27;d do something and then they didn&#x27;t do it, so from now on people are going to take that into consideration and rightly consider them a bullshitter who doesn&#x27;t follow through.<p>I&#x27;ve pretty much written off any hope of ever reading the rest of A Song of Ice and Fire and also The Kingkiller Chronicles (by a different, also wildly unreliable author, what is it with these guys). Yeah, they&#x27;re not my bitch. They don&#x27;t owe me anything, it just sucks that they turned out to be bullshitters.
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fergal_reid大约 3 年前
I don&#x27;t agree with Gaiman here.<p>His basic argument is that the contract is you paid $10 for each book you got, so the author doesn&#x27;t owe you the next book.<p>I disagree with this. First off, the fact that the fans are so upset is evidence that this wasn&#x27;t _their_ understanding of the contract.<p>The thing is, they didn&#x27;t just spend $10. They spent time getting invested in the story. This emotional investment is left unfulfilled if they don&#x27;t get the implicitly promised ending.<p>Now, let&#x27;s turn this around. Let&#x27;s say fans do decide that their $10 strictly comes with no expectation of the next book coming.<p>Well then many fans wouldn&#x27;t have bought the first books until the whole series is finished. It would likely become uneconomical to write long fantasy series. Writers like Martin would suffer.<p>It&#x27;s easy for Martin or whoever to drop the ball on the implicit contract now, after becoming rich; but if this contract hadn&#x27;t existed, authors like Martin would probably have desired to create it explicitly. If you believe that, then Gaiman&#x27;s argument doesn&#x27;t hold up.<p>And so not finishing a promised series is taking from that trust commons.<p>Of course, sometimes humans _can&#x27;t_ finish something, and readers should accept that risk. The authors shouldn&#x27;t be harassed.<p>But wanting them to follow through is not the same as thinking &quot;they&#x27;re your bitch&quot;.
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matsemann大约 3 年前
Brandon Sanderson last week posted a video [0] where he said he would come clean. Spoiler: It was him having written 4 new books during lockdown in addition to those promised. The Kickstarter [1] for those books is now the biggest ever.<p>He is a machine, also gets a lot of goodwill from the way he interact with fans. He&#x27;s the one author where I read books before the series is finished, because I feel I can trust him.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ</a> [1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;dragonsteel&#x2F;surprise-four-secret-novels-by-brandon-sanderson?ref=bva2b9" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kickstarter.com&#x2F;projects&#x2F;dragonsteel&#x2F;surprise-fo...</a>
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sdoering大约 3 年前
&gt; I am behind on work because American Airlines doesn&#x27;t have proper power points in International first class like, er, all the other airlines I&#x27;ve flown on in the last few years.<p>&gt; (They offered to sell me an adapter for $150 to plug in the battery-dead computer, and I probably should have said yes to keep working, but was so outraged, and had decided not to fly American in future, so it would never have been used again, and said no.)<p>Regardless of the &quot;real&quot; point of the article I was totally irritated by that. How would any company rationalize behavior like this? Do &quot;rich&quot; people flying first class really normally just shell out $150 instead of deciding (like Gaiman did) to just not fly them again?<p>Are $150 worth the lost business?
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mtnygard大约 3 年前
Past purchases don&#x27;t buy future books, true.<p>George is a free human not a slave to our desire for _content_, also true.<p>But I also understand fan frustration. When Gaiman wrote that, &quot;A Game of Thrones&quot; was already 15 years in the past. &quot;A Dance With Dragons&quot; had been promised for 2005-ish and was still 2 years in the future.<p>Since &quot;GRRM is not your bitch&quot;, George has published 10 books, of which one advanced the core story of ASoIaF. Meanwhile, on his not-a-blog, George&#x27;s infrequent posts usual refer to how busy he is while simultaneously telling fans they just need to be patient.<p>It&#x27;s been 11 years since the last book in the main ASoIaF story line. _26 years_ after reading &quot;A Game of Thrones&quot; I&#x27;m not even mad. I&#x27;ve just given up. I&#x27;ll just put this in the same category as Gordon R. Dickson&#x27;s Dorsai saga or Coleridge&#x27;s Kubla Khan: brilliant but never-to-be-finished.
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jstx1大约 3 年前
It&#x27;s normal for people to have failings like procrastination, being unproductive and not being able to finish something they started. GRRM&#x27;s failings just happen to be very public because of his earlier success.<p>He&#x27;s never finishing those books and I think that at this point many of the fans have moved on.
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randomthought12大约 3 年前
At this point, I am not sure we will get the end of the story.<p>I am almost glad that HBO killed my love for GoT.<p>I totally understand that George R.R. Martin is not our bitch but when someone creates a book series that lots of people come to love, you feel cheated when you learn about all the side projects when the main project doesn&#x27;t seem to evolve.<p>Anyway, I read the 5 books, absolutely loved them. I think I&#x27;ll just stop caring and try to remember these 5 amazing books as the end of the story.
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Traster大约 3 年前
Authors don&#x27;t owe their fans a next installment in the series.<p>They do however, owe the fans a little bit of honesty. In 2015 George RR Martin said he&#x27;s going to skip comic-con in 2015 because he needs to focus on finish off winds of winter, but hey! If he gets it done before hand, he&#x27;ll come to comic-con. That was 6 years after this blogpost complaining that people have unreasonable expectations that George RR Martin will deliver winds of winter.<p>The problem isn&#x27;t that Martin hasn&#x27;t delivered the book, it&#x27;s that he has a massive problem communicating with his fans about whether he&#x27;s going to deliver the book. He&#x27;s repeatedly done this, and people question why the fans are angry. They&#x27;re angry because he&#x27;s jerking them around.<p>It&#x27;s not even unreasonable for him to make promises to the fans and then fail to deliver. But there comes a point where it&#x27;s reasonable for people to be angry at him for continuing to make predictions&#x2F;statements about the book when he&#x27;s got such a well-established pattern of breaking those promises. It&#x27;s reasonable for Charlie Brown to get angry when Lucy pulls the football out of the way at the last minute - it&#x27;s not because she owed him the football, it&#x27;s that she lied to him, repeatedly.
the_af大约 3 年前
I agree with Neil Gaiman. GRRM doesn&#x27;t owe anyone anything. Some in the fandom are particularly obnoxious, like when they warned him &quot;not to pull a &#x27;Robert Jordan&#x27;&quot; (i.e. dying before completing the saga). George was right to lash out at them.<p>That said...<p>I think sagas like <i>A Song of Ice and Fire</i> are not exactly the kind of standalone literature were it&#x27;s reasonable to pay for the book you&#x27;re reading, and anything else is an extra. They are more like a TV show, even if HBO&#x27;s didn&#x27;t exist. We accept that fans protest the cancellation or bad endings of shows they love, and ASoIaF is <i>very much</i> a TV show in book form.<p>So GRRM doesn&#x27;t owe fans anything. But it&#x27;s also reasonable for fans to be upset and vocal about the lack of progress of this TV-show-in-book-form saga.<p>Also: I might be a minority that enjoys the journey more than the destination, so I enjoy reading about these noble houses, their family mottos, their vendettas, but even then in a work like this they are all in service of a satisfying payoff. This isn&#x27;t an experimental &quot;high literature&quot; set of novels. Not providing this payoff would be like Agatha Christie never revealing &quot;whodunnit&quot; in one of her mystery novels.
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openfuture大约 3 年前
Wow this thread seriously sucks. So much hate.<p>People! wake up! Reading is awesome? if you get emotionally invested and then never get a satisfying ending (or any ending at all) then you just learned a valuable life lesson. Now get over it and read another book! :)<p>It&#x27;s amazing that you can get such strong feelings, as you grow older this may not be the case anymore so don&#x27;t take your passion for granted.
jmyeet大约 3 年前
After producing 3 of the finest fantasy books I&#x27;ve ever read, GRRM has produced 2 books in <i>20 years</i> that are mediocre at best and filled with fluff that really should&#x27;ve been edited out. And I have a theory about this.<p>Some writers will write and see where the story takes them. Others (like GRRM) will have a plan. Having a plan gives structure and a destination. It&#x27;s good. Where it can go bad is the characters can change to where your destination no longer makes sense.<p>Take How I Met Your Mother as a perfect example of this. The (terrible) ending was always the plan but audiences hated it. In part because they loved Cristin Millotti (unexpected) but also because Robin had changed.<p>I believe the delay in finishing the series stems from this: GRRM doesn&#x27;t know how to get to the ending he originally planned. A popular theory in fan circles is the Meereenese Knot [1]. Personaly I think it&#x27;s a more fundamental problem than just one plot point.<p>I mean the two great hacks (DnD) rushed to end the show in one of the worst received finales of all time. I&#x27;m not sure HBO understands just how much damage these two did because not only have people moved on from GoT but the various promnects set in that universe are probably doomed to failure because literally nobody cares anymore. It&#x27;s the equivalent of killing the entire MCU with one show. It&#x27;s that bad.<p>The second trap GRRM has fallen into is another common one with writers: he now doesn&#x27;t know what to leave out. The original plans was the first 3 books then a long gap and a second trilogy. But then he thought the story of Stannis and Jon Snow needed to be told (it didn&#x27;t). And other such storylines crept in where these could&#x27;ve been flashbacks or summaries..<p>His early writing style was fantastic for this. A character&#x27;s arc would skip ahead to something significant and then layer what&#x27;s happening with what happened in the gap. It was engaging and concise.<p>So does GRRM &quot;owe&quot; us this story? Probably not. Do I care anymore? Not really. I would actually be shocked at this point if GRRM finishes the series <i>at all</i> (Robert Jordan anyone?). If he does, I&#x27;d target 2035 at the earliest for 2 more books.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;asoiaf&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2pp2m8&#x2F;spoilers_all_an_analysis_exploration_of_grrms&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;asoiaf&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2pp2m8&#x2F;spoilers_all...</a>
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SamoyedFurFluff大约 3 年前
For people who are fans of epic fantasy and are waiting decades for completed series: please read current authors who are actually producing and have a known track record of finishing what they start. NK Jemisin has finished multiple series redefining the genre. Mercedes Lackey is a staple. Fonda Lee just finished the Green Bone Saga and it’s great. Robert Jackson Bennett writes fantasy that has the same complex magic systems and political intrigue but actively subverts expectations and really brings the humanity to it with compelling characters… and he has a complete trilogy! These people deserve more attention, more investment, and more fans.
Octoth0rpe大约 3 年前
There&#x27;s a review for Rothfuss&#x27;s perpetually forthcoming Doors of Stone that makes the same point that is worth reading: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;review&#x2F;show&#x2F;2105865794" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;review&#x2F;show&#x2F;2105865794</a>
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reddog大约 3 年前
Nonsense. I don&#x27;t expect a storyteller to be my bitch but I do expect them to finish the story they started telling 5 novels ago. After all, I&#x27;ve invested at least 150 never-to-be-relived hours of my life in reading his story with the expectation it would eventually come to a conclusion.<p>Not finishing a story is a monumental betrayal of trust by the storyteller. And there <i>is</i> a contract between storyteller and listner that is as old as time and we all feel it in our bones. Try telling a bedtime story to a 4 year old about the 3 little pigs and just stop at the second pig, walk away and see what happens.
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OtomotO大约 3 年前
Well, even if he never finishes, the red wedding still a better love story than twilight, I guess ;)<p>As an absolute fan of ASoIaF, The Kingkiller Chronicles and The Gentleman Bastard I can say:<p>I am waiting for Winds of Winter for over 10 years now... I would be full of joy if it really came out, but I also see that George doesn&#x27;t owe me anything.<p>I paid the existing books, knowing the series wasn&#x27;t finished and still I ate right through them.<p>It&#x27;s a bit like with open source, really. Some people expect you to deliver again and again if they donate (!) to your work.
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TMWNN大约 3 年前
No, no! Don&#x27;t you know that every ASoIaF fan has, by the mere act of reading the extant books, obtained a mortgage on Martin&#x27;s future writing? That he owes each and every one of us the rest of the books in the series ASAP, and that if he for whatever reason is unable to deliver, he will majorly owe us (even from beyond the grave) for the YEARS we have WASTED and the DOZENS OF DOLLARS we have spent on the older books, waiting in vain?!?<p>... The above is a zero-exaggeration paraphrasing of *many* so-called ASoIaF fans&#x27; ridiculously entitled views of Martin&#x27;s work (including elsewhere in this discussion). People express this anger in different ways. Some do what I mention above. Some take the more passive-aggressive route of constantly posting about how Martin needs to lose weight for his health, or &quot;please stop watching football and start writing&quot;, or &quot;please stop going to conventions and start writing&quot;,[1] or &quot;hope he finishes the books before dying&quot;. As if such creeps are actually concerned about Martin&#x27;s well-being; if they could snap their fingers and have the entire series completed tomorrow at the cost of its author dropping dead at once, I know what 90% of them would choose.<p>ASoIaF is a brilliant series, one of the masterpieces of the past 20 years. If Martin were to die tomorrow I&#x27;d sympathize with his wife, be glad I had the chance to read five remarkable books and watch the TV series and, yes, be sad to not read the end of the series. I&#x27;d not, however, be angry at him&#x2F;God&#x2F;the universe for dying before giving us more. They&#x27;re great novels, but at the end of the day they&#x27;re just that, novels.<p>[1] Yes, there are people who have posted both of these things on Martin&#x27;s Livejournal site
tialaramex大约 3 年前
Neil should of course know, since over 30 years ago he wrote an outline for a three arc Miracleman comic book, wrote only one of those three arcs and then legal quagmire ensured that nothing more happened.<p>Even when Disney&#x27;s attack lawyers (for Marvel) nailed down all the rights to actually <i>publish</i> Miracleman again in the 2010s somehow nothing further got published, Marvel re-published everything from Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman, up until the end of the Golden Age (the first of Gaiman&#x27;s three arcs) but when the first new book was scheduled (the Silver Age) it simply never materialised, at first it was &quot;delayed&quot; and then all mention was simply deleted.<p>In 2022 yet again supposedly Marvel are &quot;definitely&quot; going to publish this book, and well, do you see it? No.<p>Neil has other things to be doing, probably more interesting to him and certainly more lucrative than some dusty old comic book franchise.
jl6大约 3 年前
The HBO show was amazing, for at least 4 seasons and maybe as many as 6 seasons. My working assumption is that the fan reaction to the HBO ending has sent GRRM back to the drawing board on many storylines and thus he will require more time to finish. He’s 73… fingers crossed.
gorjusborg大约 3 年前
I really can&#x27;t understand how someone can appreciate a writer&#x27;s work so much that they hate them for not producing more.<p>That&#x27;s weird.
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cybaz大约 3 年前
Sometimes I wonder, if I knew that the series would not be finished would I have started it, and would reading something else have been a better use of my time. I usually come to the conclusion that despite GRRM&#x27;s world being incomplete, it&#x27;s still far better than most of the work in the fantasy genre.
dang大约 3 年前
Related:<p><i>Entitlement issues (2009)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8136670" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8136670</a> - Aug 2014 (151 comments)
jrimbault大约 3 年前
title: Entitlement issues... [2009]
praptak大约 3 年前
Just don&#x27;t start buying series until the last part is out. Or maybe at least until the <i>next</i> part is out.
999900000999大约 3 年前
&gt;It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren&#x27;t coming out on time.<p>I see this a lot with hip hop, someone like Andre 3000 has never actually put out an album. Still regarded as one of the best rappers of all time,<p>E-40, and most other Bay area rappers will put out multiple releases in a single year. E-40 tends to not get quite as much praise, but I personally think he&#x27;s a better artist since he can put out content.<p>But I don&#x27;t spend all day tweeting at Andre 3000 that he needs to give me five albums. Lauryn Hill is looking like she&#x27;s never going to finish another album in her life, it&#x27;s okay.<p>She left her mark.<p>Likewise, Game of thrones has already done what it was going to do for this culture. I remember going to a watch party for the last episode, and it was great.<p>This was pre-COVID, and everyone was very social, it felt like a community. Even though we were just paying a bar to let us sit and watch, we talked.<p>So I commend you George RR Martin, you brought people together , you connected people.<p>If he never writes another page, that adds a bit of mystique to it all. It&#x27;s just an unfinished story
foogazi大约 3 年前
Started reading “A Game of Thrones” in 2011<p>I wish I could read it again for the first time