Ask HN: I am stateless – trouble learning from feedback

37 点作者 servytor大约 3 年前

TLDR: I am stateless in the sense that indirect and direct feedback of any kind is not incorporated into my behavior tomorrow. I feel like I am constantly being reset. I do not learn from what happened yesterday. I can learn a little bit over time, and change my opinion, but tomorrow I will most likely forget. I seem to be entirely dependent on my 'active memory' and situational cues as to what is going on. I define 'active memory' as being what has happened since I have woken up. It seems that 'recent memory' is defined officially as having a 30-second cutoff, and that is is not an issue with me, so be aware I am using a new term.---For a long time I have thought I suffered solely from the Dunning-Kruger effect. I would think I know how to do something, and then find out it took a lot more effort than usual, and thus I proved to myself that I was not that competent. Thus, I diagnosed myself as feeling superficially competent in areas where I have no expertise. Dunning-Kruger, right? I assumed a lot of people suffer from it, and I must be another moron. But despite this awareness of this self-diagnosis, and thinking about how I might be acting on it, I still feel competent in new areas when I should not. I wake the next day, and behold, I still see myself as competent.But what I am suffering from is not limited to my beliefs about myself, which is unlike Dunning-Kruger. I have trouble changing any belief. For example, let's say that I ask a group of people about who knows git well - and someone starts to talk who I had previously never thought of as being competent in that area. The next day I will see that person the same way as I did before they helped me with the git issue. It is easy for me to think "Wow, she really knows git well!" and to change my opinion in that moment, but it is almost impossible for me to remember that the next day. On the next day I can partially remember that person being an expert in git, but somehow my opinion is separate and unchanging and I will still see them as not knowing git well. So lo and behold, in the same way, on waking the next way I see that person the same way as before.I believe I have trouble learning from direct or indirect feedback (I am ignoring 'feedback' as business jargon for when a person talks to you about your performance, and that most google searches result for me). I keep 'touching the hot stove' and making the same judgement, having the same behavior, etc. The number one sign of stupidity is making the same mistake again and again, and I definitely fall into that category.I also feel like I have to recreate my knowledge-base in my active memory each day. It is normal for me to be very confused, and to make inferences based on what I can deduce based on first-principles and almost no knowledge. I will take every situational cue I can to my advantage, as I cannot trust my memory. When it comes to learning something, I am heavily dependent on notes I have taken to teach myself how something works the next day. I am awful in the sense that I constantly try to appear smart to others, as I want to blend in as another competent individual.Some questions:Do you know what the technical term is of what I am going through, so I could learn more about it?What does it mean when my mind seems to reset its opinions to the previous 24 hours?What does it mean when your beliefs do not change, and despite being aware of it, you do not know how to stop it?Do you have trouble remembering feedback? What is your hypothesis as to why?How do you incorporate feedback into changing your opinion about yourself or someone or something into your long-term memory?Are others stuck acting off of active memory only? Do people on HN suffer from memory deficits?What happens when you get feedback from a mistake or learn something? What efforts do you take, either in your head or with tools to stay aware of it tomorrow?

20 条评论

omnomynous大约 3 年前

I am probably going to get downvoted into oblivion despite just sharing my lived experience, but I felt kind of similar to this on a smaller time scale for a couple days after my first and second pfizer doses. I would, at random times, have ZERO recollection of what I did in the time window starting ~20 minutes ago and ending ~20 seconds ago. Like, questioning whether my phone was stolen because there were photos in my camera roll that I was positive I had never seen before. I saw my GP about it and they suggested 8 hours of sleep with a regular schedule (I do), making sure I take a multivitamin (I do), making sure I'm getting adequate nutrition (I do), and to come back in a week if it was still happening.Mine luckily cleared up after a few days, but I got it again the day after I got my 2nd dose, which also fortunately cleared up after a few days. Got Moderna for my booster and did not experience that with Moderna at all. I'm starting to wonder if I got unlucky and just got 2 bad batches from Pfizer or if it was possibly psychosomatic / stress-originating rather than chemical/biological.One suggestion I have, something that helped me feel a lot more comfortable and secure in the world was asking family / close friends if they had noticed changes with me lately, and leaning on them to help me reconstruct a timeline of when it started happening. I hope that can offer assistance to you, but definitely see a doctor (or multiple doctors, if you are unsatisfied with the treatment, or want further confirmation of the diagnosis / other ideas) too if you haven't already.

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pontifier大约 3 年前

I have several similar memory issues, but they manifest in different ways.Information presented verbally is almost impossible for me to remember. Lists or processes that aren't written down are worthless. For this reason, I record all my phone calls, and often have to refer back to them to get times I'm supposed to be somewhere, or other things like that. I also like to record important in person meetings so I can remember what was said.I also have trouble forming habits. I tend to wake up at different times, eat different foods, and generally work out what I should do next from first principals, eg. "I'm hungry, so I guess I need to eat." Etc.I tend to not connect stimuli with consequences. I have tried to become addicted to things, even going so far as trying to start smoking several times. Eventually I just forget to buy a pack, and realize later that, once again, I accidentally quit.I always struggled with subjects in school that required memorization such as history.On the flip side, I'm really good at quickly solving novel problems, and coming up with novel solutions to things. I'm always coming up with new ideas because I basically invent everything as I go.

themodelplumber大约 3 年前

You are really good at writing about yourself / supporting yourself analytically, IMO. In some ways I'd say it doesn't even seem like you have these "problems," in the sense that you are so accepting of your existential world, in which "things happen to me," as opposed to "I make things happen and they bend to my will."IMO/TL;DR--I would't ask us with expectations of an us-fix or an us-help, unless it's just a vehicle to help you keep writing about yourself. You wrote to us about the way in which you block outside information via multiple means/effects, so you'd be swimming hard upstream. This is more common than people think.Regarding things happening, I would look at building your own hyper-perceptive timing models for interventions. Ask yourself what's happening _to you_ today and what that means you can do well today. Stuff is sucking, OK so therefore I can really write a long journal entry about how everything sucks today. (To me this is a productive exercise, not anything defeating by a long stretch)Regarding feedback, there are different names for this group of concerns you have.But the fact that you're asking us to give you names for the group of concerns, also_has a group of names. And _that_ gets really interesting.Reach out if you are interested. Otherwise I'd say--you're processing this really well and maybe asking us is the trojan-horse activity that helps you to keep writing at length about your current life conditions. Not a bad thing to be able to lean on, if that's the case.

codezero大约 3 年前

You should see a doctor and maybe get an MRI.Also, do you take notes? Do you do any kind of spaced repetition/actively review things from the previous day/days?I had a similar issue that had more to do with my own aversion to writing things down and reviewing them - yeah it sounds weird, but in the same way people avoid recalling bad memories (and others recall them too often) I had a similar aversion to reviewing things I wrote down especially because sometimes I didn't remember writing it, and that's kind of scary. I needed to get over that mental block, and I still am not great at following my own advice, but using external memory/finding a trusted method is a starting point for self-medicating at least for me.

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codingdave大约 3 年前

I second all the comments to talk to a doctor. There are absolutely medical reasons for memory problems which they can help not only diagnose but also plan treatments and recovery assistance.

encephalos大约 3 年前

Look into doing a QEEG might help identify something for you to start on.. maybe try and do a FMRI instead as well. For the record, the “brain mapping” technique of a QEEG is highly debated (I think) by science / the neuro folks.. but there’s anecdotal evidence everywhere online or on Reddit from individuals saying positive things. From what I’ve read it’s a clinical tool to be used additionally in terms of diagnosing learning disabilities mainly (ADHD, Autism), there might be research in regards to memory out there?For me, I fell on the subject of QEEGs as I had similar epiphanies in self-awareness in terms of my "executive functions" and certain aspects of it. Currently in the process of scheduling an appointment at a nearby clinic that does it.Can’t provide more insight on the actual condition or the possible areas affected in your brain, but I can suggest maybe adding some neurofeedback training to your routine.I just picked up a <a href="https://www.mendi.io/" rel="nofollow">https://www.mendi.io/</a> not sure if it’s going to be a dust collector yet but I’m giving it a chance.There’s this scientist on YT that reviews these products very well and also has affiliate links that provide a bit of a discount on the devices.<a href="https://youtube.com/c/Techforpsychinnovations" rel="nofollow">https://youtube.com/c/Techforpsychinnovations</a>

theandrewbailey大约 3 年前

Sounds like some kind of amnesia. You need to talk to a doctor.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterograde_amnesia" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterograde_amnesia</a>

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tonguetrainer大约 3 年前

Are you functioning okay otherwise? We all have quirks in our thinking. Many are not aware of this, and you may be acutely aware. Can you just accept your quirks, make affordances when necessary, and be at peace?

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mosseater大约 3 年前

Maybe in the moment you go along with what is correct. Like, with the git example, in the moment you believe your coworker is good at git because she helped you. But after that situational event happens, you go back to your normal state. You might be going along with it in the moment, but not critically analyzing your thoughts and seeing how they are different? My theory only holds up if you are mostly oblivious to your thoughts having been different before.The thing is your talking about your opinions and mindsets more than your "memory". You didn't mention having typical memory issues, like forgetting what you did or where you are in a project or that random thing your boss told you to do. This might be more of a psychological thing than a medical thing. If your doctor doesn't think it's medical in nature, you might want to get a Therapist. I know people don't like therapy, but therapy can give you a lot of personalized advice on how to adjust to your own experience wayy better than random internet nerds.

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water8大约 3 年前

Number one are you getting enough sleep?Number two are you taking any drugs like Benzodiazepines?Are you spending your days during the same thing or uninteresting things?Are you going to the gym because that is one thing that you can’t forget if you’re dedicated. The results will be there on full display And you will know that you accomplished that with hard work over time

anon2020dot00大约 3 年前

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. I can relate a bit in that I also have poor autobiographical memory. I feel a bit like an android in Westworld where-in everyday, the android forgets what happened the previous day and reverts back to core programming.My Dad is also similar in having poor autobiographical memory and so I think it is at least partly genetic. I use tools to help improve my memory. One of them is Otter.AI which is good for capturing conversations with other people and with making voice memos so at least that makes it possible to review past conversations and ideas. Another thing that I'm trying recently is using Google Docs as an index, basically just actively making an effort to remember previous conversations and writing down the key points in the Google Doc.

cweagans大约 3 年前

IMO, you should seriously consider seeing a doctor. I had a very similar thing for years and it turns out that my actual problem is sleep apnea and ADHD. Working on those two problems has made a world of difference to my ability to function.

thimkerbell大约 3 年前

I am not a health professional, but:Are you getting feedback from actual people in the real world? Do you have a stable living situation? Are you eating well, and getting exercise and lots of fresh air, and not experiencing gaslighting?If your environment is unstable or air quality is poor, then it might be possible that the stress and disruption from those could explain the symptoms you are experiencing. Again though, I have no training so take this with salt.

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holonsphere大约 3 年前

I would recommend reading Steps to an Ecology of mind. I have a great deal of disdain for the bateson name but i found this work very uplifting shortly after a concussion. If you'd like to talk about some of the exercises i undertook to serialize my stream of conciousness please reach out.

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NedCode大约 3 年前

If you try to read those comments here every day and try to recall what you've read ahead of reading it again, how far into the comment go?

faangiq大约 3 年前

This sounds like an amazing tech lament poem.

Philadelphia大约 3 年前

This is common in people with ADHD

istorical大约 3 年前

Hi there, just commenting to say that I have been struggling with this the past few years and I have never seen someone describe how I felt so accurately. I'm about 30 but I remember starting to feel this way around the time I was in college, part of me is scared I damaged myself with binge drinking / pseudo-alcoholism in my early 20s. But I was always a cram-for-tests-then-forget-literally-all-of-it person in highschool and college, so maybe not.I've been wondering if I am too 'in the moment' and don't do enough self-examination of the past. It seems some people get stuck replaying conversations or events over and over and thinking about them, whereas I do that almost not at all. I wonder if that rumination / self-examination is a core part of the memory forming process. I also wonder if aphantasia is related as I lean towards the non-visual end of the spectrum, or sort of a quiet / subdued inner monologue as I am the type that prefers to speak aloud to myself to think things through rather than silently ponder, not to say that I can't think silently. I also wonder if there's some need for idle time in the brain, and if our constant stimulation via content in the form of news, reddit, youtube, podcasts, etc. is deleterious to memory formation because my brain doesn't get any boredom or downtime. Perhaps that downtime is necessary for memory formation. I also wonder if my daily coffee habit might worsen it, or my once or twice a week moderate alcohol intake. Those are two things I should probably give up but it's really hard. I've also considered getting rid of my smartphone or going to a dumbphone to see if my brain uses the periods of boredom to do something useful and my memory improves. But that's such a hard decision to pull the trigger on as a digital addict.Have you made any efforts to combat this by doing introspection or making daily attempts to recall or remember or store information? I haven't actually taken any steps to address this condition but it's been feeling more urgent and deserving of intervention. Have been considering a daily journaling habit to see if writing down biographical events will help cement them in my memory (and to have the artifact to go back and get info from). I also wonder if memory is a muscle and when one doesn't exercise 'remembering' their autobiographical information if that muscle weakens, and then perhaps the memory-write step also decays as well due to disuse/lack of need.For the most debilitating part of this is having to relearn something that a coworker told me or explained a week or a month or six months ago, which I find embarrassing or insulting to them, and then the other thing is not being able to remember who I told what information to or I'll remember a personal detail or story someone told me on a date but then not be sure what individual told me the detail or story. Like 'is this the girl who told me her father died when she was young or was that my friend or another person I went on a date with last week'. It makes me feel like they will think I don't care about them when I can't remember important things they shared like being abused or something about their family. I've started taking notes on new people I meet and adding hobbies we have in common, things I like about them, etc.edit: one other thing I thought of, it may be worth getting a sleep study done. could be a deficit of some part of the sleep cycle.And another thing is, I wonder if this is hereditary as I remember as a child my father would forget what foods I liked and disliked and I'd have to always remind him and I felt so confused and like he had no memory, and my grandma would behave similarly. There'd be moments where I felt like they were really stupid, but now I look back and feel like maybe they had the same experience I do. Or there'd be situations that I look at now and think 'he couldn't remember whether something was true about me or true about my brother, but he remembered that one of us did / said / had that property'.

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xupybd大约 3 年前

I have similar issues. My memory is horrible at best.I struggle to remember basic things. When I was studying electronics I would always forget if the red wire should be live or the black (that was not a good trait).I can have a conversation in the morning with my wife and forget it by the time I get home from work. With the right triggers I can remember the entire conversation but finding those triggers is hard.Often I bluff my way through situations until I remember. My father spoke of similar issues. I noticed that as he was struggling with terminal cancer and heavily medicated he was very good at bluffing when he had no idea what was going on.Yet if you ask me a general knowledge question I can probably recall to the finest detail. I have a great memory for concepts and an ability to connect things that others struggle with.I have learnt a few things about myself over the years. Maybe sharing them can help others.Burnout is real and a memory killer. I cannot learn, I can hardly function when burnt out. It creeps up slowly and has a terrible long-lasting impact.I can get in a state of constant rush, I feel an urgency to get everything done and frustration with the slow pace. This destroys my working memory and prevents me from learning new concepts. If I can remain calm and focused I can achieve great things. Taking it slow and methodically takes discipline but the rewards are huge.Keeping my space and mind clean also pays off. I used to feel I didn't have the time to keep things tidy. Now I don't have the time not to. The more order I have around me the less I feel rushed and panicked.Some of the right kinds of music with noise-cancelling headphones can help focus. I like Binaural beats for this. White noise also works well but I don't like the high pitch tones.Lots of planning and diagrams help. I often attempt to keep too many details in my head and get overwhelmed. Writing down a design first helps. I can narrow my focus to the thing I'm working on. Resisting the need to rush here helps as well. I often want to skip the planning phase. But even if no one reads my documents the thinking that goes into them helps me organise my thoughts.If I have burnout or depression it will take a long time to recover and working hard in non-technical / thinking roles is the best way for me.Spelling and punctuation are not my strong points. I can't seem to remember how to spell words. Correctly spelt words often look wrong to me and look up the spelling only to find I had it correct. As a result my code sometimes suffers from inconsistent spelling of variable names. Languages like Perl are really hard for me. I can't remember how to dereference a hash or turn off buffered outputs as the commands are so small and abstract. My memory can't connect them to anything meaningful and I just can't seem to learn them. Dynamic languages I get a bit lost in. JS I can work with but in larger projects, I long for static type to help my memory. But give me a strongly typed language and automated tests and all my problems go away. I love C#, F#, Java and SQL. I can move so fast and effortlessly.If I'm distracted and surfing Reddit too much, then I'm unhappy about something. I need to sort that out to get productive agian. I can't allow myself to soothe over the issue with distraction.

exikyut大约 3 年前

I've often mused that in like 100 years we'll (...hopefully...) have an entire lexicon of mnemonics and conveyances to express what's going on in the mind. It's currently like we're 12 month olds bashing blocks together and learning our first words.Within the framework of thus-established understanding, I'd wager this might classify as ADD. It's a form of attention deficit: the process of collecting, prioritizing and storing stimulus isn't working properly, despite generally laser-focused intentions otherwise.While carrying some heavy-ish bags a short distance from A to B after a long day, I observed that the muscles in my forearms abruptly started to loosen/weaken over the course of a couple seconds and that progressively greater effort was needed in that moment to strain to keep my hands closed over the bag handles. (I quickly put the bags down realizing my muscles were going "429 too many requests" (lol) and that pushing things would probably be Bad™.) I generally compare AD(H)D and my focus issues to the same sort of model; my intention is pretty much "I am <here> and I want to be <there>", but in practice I feel like my willpower to carry that sort of intention out is sitting atop a box on an oil slick on a non-level surface, such that whenever I need to mentally self-check where I'm up to with whatever I realize my frame of reference has gone and moved *again* and I have to recalibrate where <here> is so I can start over. The disorientation can be tiring.That's the best specific description of how I experience ADHD myself (it mostly affects finding the same task interesting for long periods of time) - but I think I can kind of see some related sentiment in how you describe your memory issues, particularly the disconnect between what you describe as "active" memory and... whatever the other thing is that you're supposed to have but is replaced with empty space (I'm missing it too, and have a great time forgetting ideas and connections between things - usually the "!!!" dynamic of how A relates to B... aaand it's gone).The note-taking issues are curious. I also have a problem writing things down, which currently surfaces as a glitch wherein anything that goes onto paper that isn't a finished, done, thing... is basically worthless. Like, once something goes onto paper or a screen, it's *done*, no further editing or review to happen. (Somehow, mercifully, programming is an exception (!).) This basically negates list-writing. I wonder if this is because something's hitting a cognitive-dissonance trigger: perhaps some part of the brain is underdeveloped or otherwise not providing the "full-resolution" signal that it's supposed to send elsewhere, but still hitting certain notes that cue the destination to go "this is good data"... I mean for myself I just feel like the data I'm getting from my own writing is just... plain old unsettling, like a kid wrote it and I'm expected to take it seriously, or something.I've actually had this for years.