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Epistemic legibility: being easy to argue with is a virtue

242 点作者 shrikant大约 3 年前

18 条评论

yboris大约 3 年前
Also reminds me of &quot;computational kindness&quot; where, for example, you give people 2 specific date-times to have lunch, rather than asking them to look through their entire calendar and come up with something (it&#x27;s easier to check two time slots than to think about all your obligations).<p>Comes from Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths&#x27; &quot;Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;boingboing.net&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;17&#x2F;algorithms-to-live-by-what-co.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;boingboing.net&#x2F;2016&#x2F;06&#x2F;17&#x2F;algorithms-to-live-by-what...</a>
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version_five大约 3 年前
I didn&#x27;t see it mentioned, I think I &quot;epistemic literacy&quot; is the other side of the coin. I see examples of people demanding citations for reasoning that is part of a work, of people just not understanding something, or of only really being able to blindly follow based on province or authority without trying to reconcile back to what they know.<p>If there is going to be a standard for legibility, there should be one for literacy too - it&#x27;s especially important when learning from a debate where readers and writers (or sources and sinks) switch roles, to understand how different positions are engaging with each other&#x27;s arguments, not just how they are making them
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beebmam大约 3 年前
Superbly written and argued. Assessing an argument&#x27;s Epistemic Legibility is a new tool in my toolbox for identifying weak arguments.<p>&gt; I expect having a handle with which to say “no I don’t have a concise argument about why this work is wrong, and that’s a fact about the work” to be very useful.<p>This was my favorite quote from the article
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bertil大约 3 年前
I believe that this is a key aspect of data-driven leadership, and the Friday meeting that Google founders started and many other companies imitated: make it easier for employees to argue against decisions. No organisation is perfect, or even good, so any effort to make complaints louder, clearer, more structured is incredibly valuable. One grostesque example of where that chain of information is broken is how Customer service teams are isolated.
blix大约 3 年前
I find some of this author&#x27;s arguments... epistemically illegible.<p>For instance, she criticizes James Scott&#x27;s &quot;Against the Grain&quot; for using a different definition of &#x27;state&#x27; than the first one she found on wikipedia, but it is unclear why this is a bad thing. In fact, Scott himself notes that there are many competing definitions of state that are all imperfect in his context; and that ultimately the choice of one or another is rather arbitrary. It is so that he can develop this context that Scott delays his formal definition. In searching for a legible, bold-face, definition of &#x27;state&#x27; on page 1, the author has ignored the context surrounding the concept of state as well as its place in the arguments of the book as a whole.<p>The author suggests she borrowed Scott&#x27;s sense of legibilty in her own term to suggest that legibilty has some benefits; that she can easily determine the effects of the failure of a single leg of an argument on the whole and she can easily &#x27;spot check&#x27; to determine is some fact is true or false. But in her application of this concept, especially the section on &quot;Against the Grain,&quot; she demonstrates primarily that her approach is causing her to miss nuance, trip over ambiguity, and ignore context. Ironically, this is the exact critique Scott presents of legibility in his other work.
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yboris大约 3 年前
Any time I heard &quot;epistemic&quot; I am reminded of the stellar paper &quot;In Praise of Epistemic Irresponsibility: How Lazy and Ignorant Can You Be?&quot; by Michael Bishop<p>Arguing that in numerous settings, even crude simple linear mathematical models outperform experts in a variety of tasks.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jstor.org&#x2F;stable&#x2F;20118248" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jstor.org&#x2F;stable&#x2F;20118248</a>
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slibhb大约 3 年前
&gt; Finally I worked my way up to “first walled, territorial state”. Not thinking super hard, I googled “first walled city”, and got a date 3000 years before the one Scott cites. Not a big deal, he specified state, not walls. What I can google to find that out? “Earliest state”, obviously, and the first google hit does match Scott’s timing, but… what made something a state, and how can we assess those traits from archeological records? I checked, and nowhere in the preface, introduction, or first three chapters was “state” defined. No work can define every term it uses, but this is a pretty important one for a book whose full title is Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States.<p>Isn&#x27;t this kind of spiral going to appear when you analyze almost any claim? It&#x27;s where skepticism comes from. When you get down to it it&#x27;s very hard to say a claim is truly &quot;epistemically legible&quot; outside math and the hard sciences (and even there there are dissenters).<p>And if someone does manage to write a history that&#x27;s relatively epistemically legible it&#x27;s going to be boring as hell. All histories contain narratives and all historical narratives are seriously flawed. What saves history (besides the entertainment value) is that some narratives are better than others. We can move closer to the truth through discovery and analysis of information. At the end, though, we&#x27;re still left with seriously flawed narratives, just less flawed than the previous ones if history as a discipline is functioning.
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ganzuul大约 3 年前
...Falsifiable? The author uses a lot of words and seems to appreciate brevity, but isn&#x27;t the entire article summarized by this one word?
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jl6大约 3 年前
An excellent piece of terminology. Closely related to the concept of &quot;not even wrong&quot;, I think?
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padobson大约 3 年前
I thought the concept of Epistemic Spot Checks was a great idea, so I was hoping that there might be some on the blog checking materials I had previously read so I could compare my intuitions with the author&#x27;s hobby, but I didn&#x27;t find anything.<p>The About Me says the author gave up the project after a year or so, but I&#x27;m still curious about updating my own epistemological toolbox. Does anyone have any suggestions?
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sitta大约 3 年前
I did an &quot;epistemic spot check&quot; of the section on Against the Grain, which caught my eye because I just finished reading the chapter on state formation in The Dawn of Everything. Result: It was indeed legible but was oddly false.<p>I could not find the &quot;well accepted definition&quot; of the state they sourced from Wikipedia [1]. They give the impression that there is an overwhelming consensus as to what the definition is, whereas the Wikipedia page actually states throughout &quot;there is no undisputed definition of a state&quot;, &quot;there is no academic consensus on the definition of the state&quot;, and provides multiple different definitions. I have not read Against the Grain, but it seems entirely reasonable for the author to offer their own definition, though it sounds like they could have been more forth coming with it.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;State_(polity)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;State_(polity)</a>
ZeroGravitas大约 3 年前
I think this is a valuable perspective, but also is a bit narrowly focused.<p>It&#x27;s not the single argument&#x2F;book&#x2F;article or whatever, you need an ecosystem of tools, institutions, datasources that work towards truth. I think this is probably what they are building towards, but felt it wasn&#x27;t given enough emphasis.<p>One of the examples is acoup, citing ancient historians, yet one of regular points is that those ancient historians, weren&#x27;t really historians as such and are often making an argument and making stuff up to fit whatever they were trying to argue for at the time. So it&#x27;s naturally quickly recursive, if you are citing people who are hard to argue with.
jka大约 3 年前
To draw a comparison with software development: how much test coverage does this argument have? And do those tests genuinely handle most expected inputs&#x2F;outputs and demonstrate correctness?<p>Similarly, recursively: do the claims that the argument relies upon also have good test coverage?<p>And, extrapolating beyond the article: how can we identify the flaws with minimal effort and help the authors to correct those (or fork improved arguments and build support for those when they refuse to)?
miga大约 3 年前
How different is &quot;comprehensibility&quot; from &quot;epistemic legibility&quot;?<p>Comprehensible arguments are easier to argue with, and favoured by rhetorics.
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egberts1大约 3 年前
“That’s gibberish” probably could be better said as “that goes against all factual truths that I’ve learned.”
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dilippkumar大约 3 年前
Is this author well known in some community? Their writing is superb, and I have to ask who this is.
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morelisp大约 3 年前
No.
ggm大约 3 年前
Being easy to argue with is quite distinct from being easily brought to argue, or being argumentative about easy things.<p>Kindness in argumentation means caring more about the right solution than winning. Unfortunately I have to deal with a lot of people who really only want to win, or who will change their basis of argument in order to win, even if it means espousing the view they initially opposed, as if it was their core line of reasoning!<p>I also deal with people who are only there for the argument. Being devils advocate is a sport for some.
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