TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

What Is at Stake in Ukraine

77 点作者 nathan_phoenix大约 3 年前

11 条评论

jacquesm大约 3 年前
What a strange article and what a bunch of unrelated factoids thrown in to reach conclusions that aren&#x27;t really supported by the data.<p>It would take something about as long as the article posted here to write a proper refutation but if there was a point to be made then it could not doubt have been made much better.<p>For instance:<p>&quot;Most of the emerging world either backs Russia over its invasion or is neutral. Some countries depend on Russian arms, others feel a misplaced nostalgia for Soviet largesse, but many see the West as decadent, self-serving and hypocritical. And many more, even if they do not welcome the invasion, see it as somebody else’s problem.&quot;<p>Where to even start? The two large players that matter in the &#x27;developing world&#x27; are China and India, both have their own very unique reasons to be either supportive of or ambivalent towards Russia, not because they depend on arms but because Russia and&#x2F;or Russian connected territories serve their interests or because they have similar political systems and have similar designs on their immediate surroundings. That&#x27;s already by population almost 3 billion people and yet it is only two countries.<p>&quot;As America and the rest of NATO rally support for action against Russia, that is a stunning rebuke.&quot;<p>So that &#x27;stunning rebuke&#x27; is not nearly as stunning as the author makes it out to be.<p>Then:<p>&quot;It is also taking the world down a dangerous path.&quot;<p>Correction: Russia is taking the world, and especially Europe down a dangerous path. If anything it has destabilized the European continent in a way that nothing has since WWII, not even the war around former Yugoslavia, where - it needs to be said - Russia again played a major role.<p>&quot;On March 2nd, 141 countries voted in the UN to deplore Russia’s invasion. Just five voted against and 35 abstained. &quot;<p>The ones that abstained have their reasons to walk a very fine line, in part because they depend on Russia and in part because they have ambitions to be more like Russia.<p>The ones that voted against are: North Korea, Eritrea, Syria, Belarus and Russia itself.<p>I don&#x27;t think anybody is going to be surprised by four of those, the one that remains is Eritrea. Russian veto power in the security council has repeatedly protected Eritrean leadership.<p>&quot;But the real pattern is more complex. Our sister organisation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, has noted that only a third of the world’s people live in countries that have not only condemned Russia but also imposed sanctions on it.&quot;<p>Yes, that&#x27;s also the part of the world that either aligns with the West because they are closely tied economically and&#x2F;or because they have the ability to do so without entirely ruining their own economy. If Upper Volta decides to boycott or sanction Russia it won&#x27;t move the needle much because they aren&#x27;t really the most active trading partners, but if the US, UK, the remainder of Europe or Japan does so it definitely does move that needle.<p>There is a whole debate possible about whether or not sanctions are effective and then another one about whether or not these particular sanctions are effective. But it is pretty easy to see why those countries that are most directly affected by Russia invading Ukraine would be the ones to support the sanctions and leave the rest of the world less likely to do so.<p>Proximity + economic ties + feeling threatened by Russia is enough explanation for me.<p>&quot;Most of them are Western. Another third are in neutral countries. This group includes giants like India and tricky American allies, such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. The final third are in countries that are echoing Russia’s rationale for the invasion. The biggest, China, has repeated propaganda claiming that Ukraine has hosted American-backed bioweapons laboratories.&quot;<p>I don&#x27;t really see what this paragraph adds to the previous one, it is pretty clear that China has its own agenda with Taiwan, a word that isn&#x27;t even present in the article, and that India has its own dependencies on Russia.<p>&quot;In Mr Putin’s world, where might makes right, today’s lack of support is proof of Western decline.&quot;<p>Winner of the &#x27;jump to conclusions&#x27; prize.<p>Anyway, this whole article looks to me as though it started out from a conclusion, then pulled together a bunch of unrelated facts to paint a completely incoherent picture.
评论 #31038953 未加载
评论 #31039125 未加载
评论 #31038835 未加载
评论 #31039332 未加载
评论 #31039860 未加载
评论 #31038993 未加载
Tycho大约 3 年前
I mean, everyone knows what would happen if Mexico or Republic of Ireland announced an agreement with Russia to let them send in weapons and military personnel and set up military bases, right? I just ask that we don’t kid ourselves.
评论 #31039553 未加载
评论 #31039284 未加载
评论 #31039295 未加载
评论 #31040121 未加载
评论 #31045705 未加载
评论 #31042429 未加载
评论 #31039340 未加载
评论 #31045869 未加载
denton-scratch大约 3 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20220415110524&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.economist.com&#x2F;leaders&#x2F;2022&#x2F;04&#x2F;16&#x2F;what-is-at-stake-in-ukraine" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20220415110524&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.econo...</a>
lkrubner大约 3 年前
In the early years, some of Putin&#x27;s speeches almost seemed liberal, and yet now, looking back, it is possible to see the imperial signature in his speeches, in particular, how his logic might lead to the erasure of an entire people. He initially emphasized a kind of multiculturalism, but now it seems to be the multiculturalism of an all-conquering empire, the kind of multiculturalism we sort of saw with the Roman Empire, not a multiculturalism that respects the independence of others, but a multiculturalism that feels that all cultures are fungible enough that the army will eventually bring all of them under control.<p>Still, it is possible that Putin really was, at one point, a bit more sympathetic to a multicultural point of view. It&#x27;s possible that he&#x27;s gone insane over the last 10 years. Consider how he sounded in 2012:<p>-----------------<p>Putin’s final major address as prime minister to parliament in April 2012 hammered home this point – the dangers of dividing and thus destroying. It came in the form of an answer to a suggestion from a member of the Russian Duma that the preamble to the Russian constitution be changed from beginning with “We the multinational people [narod] of Russia,” to “We the [ethnic] Russian [russkiy] people and the people who have joined with it.” Putin retorted:<p><i>Do you understand what we would do [if we did that]? Part of our society would consist of first class people and part would be second class. We must not do that if you and I want to have a strong single [yedinaya] nation, a single people [narod], if we want each person who lives on the territory of the country to feel that this is their homeland, and that there is no other homeland, nor can there be one. And if we want each person to feel like that, then we have to be equal. This is the principle question. The fact that the [ethnic] Russian [russkiy] people are – without a doubt – the backbone, the fundament, the cement of the multinational Russian [rossiyskiy] people cannot be questioned….But to divide everyone up into first, second, third categories, you know, this is a very dangerous path. You and I, all of us, must not do this.</i><p>-------------------<p>See more details here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;demodexio.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;mr-putin-operative-in-the-kremlin-ce9?s=w" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;demodexio.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;mr-putin-operative-in-the-k...</a>
评论 #31039344 未加载
评论 #31039648 未加载
评论 #31039316 未加载
评论 #31039492 未加载
评论 #31039443 未加载
d23大约 3 年前
These comments are immeasurably depressing. I had no idea so many in this community were one step away from openly supporting authoritarianism and genocide.
评论 #31039690 未加载
评论 #31040371 未加载
评论 #31044354 未加载
kome大约 3 年前
&quot;The pity is that emerging countries are making a grave error. As sovereign powers, they too have a stake in the war. All the West’s faults do not outweigh the fact that, in the system Mr Putin is offering, their people would suffer terribly.&quot;<p>this works if you presume &quot;sovereignty&quot; is an objectively existing fact for more than like 10 countries in the world, which it isn&#x27;t... Perhaps 10 is too generous. And the US contributed to weakening sovereignty all over the world. US is not the sole culprit, of course, but a big one.
评论 #31039581 未加载
Isinlor大约 3 年前
(deleted - there is no delete button, only edit)
评论 #31039777 未加载
lprd大约 3 年前
Whenever I read articles like this, I can&#x27;t help but feel that I&#x27;m being sold a narrative of some sort. It&#x27;s hard to filter through all the noise...
评论 #31039695 未加载
评论 #31039015 未加载
评论 #31038848 未加载
评论 #31038894 未加载
评论 #31038865 未加载
pydry大约 3 年前
I dont think that the argument that the west might be a hypocritical imperialist power but it isnt <i>quite</i> as bad as Russia is the rallying cry the Economist seems to think it is.<p>The west is fighting for a unipolar world but the rest of the world would probably rather have a multipolar world. It gives them more options.
评论 #31039374 未加载
评论 #31038852 未加载
t-3大约 3 年前
Man, when are these supposedly reputable publications going to get editors for their online material? (Or hire writers who know and practice basic grammar?) The total lack of any proofreading is just ridiculous.
评论 #31040287 未加载
eric4smith大约 3 年前
I’ve never thought I would be ambivalent towards a war.<p>But here we are.<p>Living in Asia there is definitely not the staunch apposition to the war that you might expect to see.<p>People here don’t like it but are not lockstep on Ukraines side.<p>And as a so called and derided “red pilled” guy I’m not going to jump to any conclusions for the next year or so.<p>We’ve all been seen the ultimate truth and aims and outcomes of the last half dozen wars involving the USA.<p>Once you live abroad for a significant amount of time you tend to take off the rah rah USA rose colored glasses and see the world from the point of view of other peoples.<p>A very annoying thing about the news and SJW social media is everyone jumping on the Ukraine bandwagon with nary a thought as to why what is happening… is happening.
评论 #31039087 未加载
评论 #31040030 未加载
评论 #31038995 未加载
评论 #31038946 未加载
评论 #31039111 未加载
评论 #31039596 未加载
评论 #31039592 未加载
评论 #31038957 未加载