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Ask HN: Shouldn't free migration be a human right?

19 点作者 Avtomatk大约 3 年前
I have the citizenship of a country with which I do not share its politics, I do not share its culture, I do not share its economic structure, I do not even have things in common with the people who live in my country (being someone highly intellectual in a country where the incentive to science is almost nil).<p>And I am forced to pay taxes destined for projects that do not benefit me and that are built on ideas that I do not even share.<p>My humble and miserable vote in the next elections is not going to change anything in my country at all.<p>It is like being born in tribe &quot;a&quot;, but having the culture of tribe &quot;b&quot;, the political and economic inclination that tribe &quot;b&quot; has, even living better with the people of tribe &quot;b&quot;, but being rejected by tribe &quot;b&quot; for the simple fact of being born in tribe &quot;a&quot;... It was a decision made by my parents and now I have to pay for something I didn&#x27;t do? And there isn&#x27;t even a way to fix it? Does the migration system of the countries currently have any kind of logic?<p>There is no argument (based on philosophy) to support the current migration system.<p>any constructive criticism will be welcome

18 条评论

usrn大约 3 年前
Only if that&#x27;s the only human right.<p>It&#x27;s impossible to run any kind of social safety net if an unlimited number of people can come in and bankrupt the social support.<p>Democracy also becomes impossible because if the native population gets uppity elites can bring in immigrants to dilute their votes. Mass immigration like this has, in the past, led to the end of large civilizations such as Rome.<p>Finally uncontrolled immigration economically crushes the native population by suppressing wages and causing asset and property price inflation. It&#x27;s great for GDP over the short term though.<p>There&#x27;s also the cultural and racial dilution thing but that&#x27;s a controversial idea to say the least.<p>EDIT: I can&#x27;t respond to you because my posts are throttled, but how does this work with your children? You have the same vote dilution problem in the new country but now it also opens up the opportunity to do the reverse if they&#x27;re allowed to vote in the old country. Your &quot;very long term&quot; is likely multiple generations away. Should we be crushing the lives of multiple generations of our populations just take the best workers from these other countries and delay their development?
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ggm大约 3 年前
No, migration programmes worldwide currently lack logic. They often make no economic sense.<p>Unions across the EU historically opposed free movement of labour for a very simple reason: it is used by employers to create surplus labour and drive down the cost of wages. This is not actually a bad reason to oppose it. But that aside, almost every other reason is bad, regressive, and grounded in culture, racism, or fear.<p>Angela Merkel, who I abhor politically otherwise, was very sensible when she accepted 1.5m migrants. Germany needed them, because the birthrate in the developed economies has been shrinking. They need them for labour replacement not for wage dilution. It is why Germany needed turkish labour post ww2.<p>Britain needs labour. The opposition to EU free movement was based in little englander nightmares, the reality is that having closed the door to europe, Britain is opening the door to other economies like India. There will be no end of migration to the UK, simply migration &quot;on their terms&quot;<p>If you want somewhere with open door migration policy, Uruguay isn&#x27;t bad. Its a local IT hub for the region of south america, it&#x27;s an interesting place. It is very insular, high italian migration and medium-to-low levels of english competency and it has a lot of poverty, but its a long way from its nightmare of the 1980s.<p>Ireland isn&#x27;t open door but its a nice place. As is estonia, the digital passport isn&#x27;t citizenship but they have roads to citizenship. It&#x27;s a bit close to mother Russia if you ask me!<p>Vietnam is a cool place for westerners who are prepared to accept the planned economy. It has remarkably good infrastructure in the cities. Less outside of the city, but not bad overall. I don&#x27;t think they have open door citizenship.<p>Germany is well worth committing to, but has high barriers to entry. That said, free tertiary education.
kochikame大约 3 年前
Starting off by calling yourself &quot;highly intellectual&quot; (with the strong implication that you are superior to your countrymen) is not a great position from which to win people over
Bayart大约 3 年前
I really don&#x27;t think it should. Human rights should be available in all countries, but the world isn&#x27;t free real estate at the mercy of enterprising individuals. End of story.<p>The tribalism you&#x27;re mentioning is just anthropology. With a good dose of rule of law it works well enough, and it does so at scale. If it doesn&#x27;t work for you, well, tough luck.<p>One thing that should be mentioned is that rights can only practically exist within confines that allow for their protection and execution. Something like a State or a culture, with defined boundaries...
paxys大约 3 年前
Leaving your country should be a human right. Entering another one without their consent should not. Unfortunately there aren&#x27;t any real unclaimed areas on the planet, so we are stuck with the current system.
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EdwardDiego大约 3 年前
&gt; And I am forced to pay taxes destined for projects that do not benefit me and that are built on ideas that I do not even share.<p>That&#x27;s not all your taxes cover though. And you&#x27;ll use infrastructure&#x2F;services that other people don&#x27;t benefit from but still pay taxes for.<p>It&#x27;s how every nation works.
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dragonwriter大约 3 年前
&gt; Shouldn&#x27;t free migration be a human right?<p>Free <i>emigration</i> should be a human right (you should have the right to <i>leave</i>), for most of the reasons of not being forced to associate that you raise.<p>OTOH, the same right argues against unrestricted freedom of <i>immigration</i>.
danamit大约 3 年前
I am not highly intellectual like you, but I think the main reason you&#x27;d be drawn to a country that &quot;has a better culture&quot;, is their economical success, so there will always be this issue of countries successful economically being the &quot;better culture&quot;.<p>In the example of tribe a&#x2F;b, tribe a is weak, you wanna be with tribe b, tribe b require you to be strong before you join. Strength today is in term of labor output, if you are highly qualified (not only highly intellectual sadly) you will be invited by tribe b.<p>Also why would a country invite on the basis of you agreeing with them, they are full of people agreeing with them, they want people who are useful to them.<p>Also if someone who lives in a &quot;better&quot; country, yes it was given to them by their fathers and grandfathers, that&#x27;s a privilege that they got without doing any work (it take some work to maintain tho), but they have no obligation to give it to you, or share it with you, you can&#x27;t argue for it with &quot;but I am sad cuz I don&#x27;t have it too :(&quot;. If it is basic needs yeah, but arguing for luxuries I am not with you.<p>On an individual level, you do not hand people around you that are less fortunate than you in your society some of the privilege you were born with to the point that you made them your equal (economically).
8bitsrule大约 3 年前
This is a good time to start considering what it means to be homo sapiens ... not tribal beings but a species of brothers and sisters. In the DNA. Unless we suddenly realize it, we&#x27;re heading for a time when millions of people displaced by nature will be knocking at all the doors. If we aren&#x27;t preparing for that great migration, we&#x27;re head in sand.<p>A revolution is on its way. If I understand what you&#x27;re saying, then Rousseau (<i>Origin of Inequality</i>) spoke on the behalf of every human ever displaced by colonialism when he wrote:<p>&quot;The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said &#x27;This is mine&#x27;, and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.&quot;
cyber_kinetist大约 3 年前
The book &quot;The Dawn of Everything&quot; by Graeber and Wengrow touches on this: the anthropological record suggests that even people from very long times ago (even before we observe the first &quot;big&quot; civilizations) have moved and migrated all the time. The system we have now where nation states guarding their borders by tracking their citizen&#x27;s movements is, regarding the entirety of human history, a strange and absurd anomaly.<p>The book suggests that humanity has always relied on three <i>substansive</i> aspects of freedom which we&#x27;ve lost over the years in place of <i>formal</i> freedoms imposed by liberalism:<p>- The freedom to move away or relocate from one&#x27;s surroundings<p>- The freedom to ignore or disobey commands issued by others<p>- The freedom to shape entirely new social realities, or shift back and forth between different ones.<p>I highly recommend reading the book if you have any interest on this.
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Blackstrat大约 3 年前
Simplify the interpretation. One has the right to leave their own abode, house, etc. at any time, for any reason. One does not have the right to enter another’s house without an explicit invite. The other’s house is maintained and paid for by that individual. Immigration is no different. One may leave their own country. Whether any other country will allow their entry is another question. The US and Western Europe are violating the rights of their own citizens by allowing mass immigration. It ends as it always has with the destruction of the host country. And sadly for many, that is exactly the goal.
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gitgud大约 3 年前
Sometimes I think of a world without borders. But after more thought, it would probably require a world government...
Georgelemental大约 3 年前
&quot;Should be&quot; doesn&#x27;t apply to human rights. Either it is a human right, in which case it always has been and always will be, or it is not, in which case it never has been and never will be. &quot;Human right&quot; by definition means that it applies to all humans ever automatically.
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duxup大约 3 年前
I’m not sure you’re going to find any nation where you only pay taxes for things you want.<p>But let’s say the next country allows for everyone getting what they want (somehow) and that includes letting nobody else in…<p>Who gets their way? Them or you?
telchior大约 3 年前
Immigration laws aren&#x27;t very good in almost all countries. Governments do want to plan better and have good-sense policies that let in people who can integrate and contribute. But they are held back by a basic human instinct: xenophobia. The average person is OK with seeing one stranger in town, but start feeling creeped out when they see handfuls, and get downright paranoid when exposed to large numbers of foreigners. Inevitably, this instinct becomes a tool for a subset of politicians, who then play power games with immigration policies.<p>I&#x27;m not sure exactly why, but there are also some systemic habits that make immigration much worse than it should be. For example, it&#x27;s nearly universal that countries will put tight global restrictions in place because they want to reduce immigrants from a single place. E.g. looking at Central &#x2F; South America right now, a lot are tightening up policies against all nationalities because they don&#x27;t want immigrants from Venezuela. This is really baked in -- look at how intense the outcry was when the Trump administration put restrictions on specific, named countries at the beginning of the pandemic. That&#x27;s generally just not done.<p>So in short, you may be correct that there&#x27;s a theoretical human right, but the world just isn&#x27;t going to realign in that direction anytime soon. In the same way that it&#x27;s sort of a human right to have pleasant, non-hostile interactions with other people, but that would also be impossible to effect; there are simply too many assholes in the mix.<p>One thing I&#x27;ve often pondered is that there should be some sort of non-governmental group that you can join or qualify for, which evaluates and vouches for its members and guarantees their good conduct in any country they visit. Basically, the same thing a passport does. But it&#x27;s a pipe dream in a world where almost everything is based on accidents of geography.<p>As a side note, there is a new sort of route to immigrating for people in your situation, these days: instead of going to another country first, instead work remotely, build up cash, and use that to immigrate. (Because, as others have pointed out, money is one pathway to immigration.)
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version_five大约 3 年前
It&#x27;s an extension of property rights. I have the right to the security of my house, my yard, my estate, etc, up to my country that I&#x27;ve agreed with my fellow citizens to have represent my interests. You can agree or disagree, but fundamentally, letting anyone (in the sense of not enforcing agreed entry requirements) into a country infringes on the collective property rights of that country&#x27;s citizens.
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incomingpain大约 3 年前
&gt;I have the citizenship of a country with which I do not share its politics, I do not share its culture, I do not share its economic structure, I do not even have things in common with the people who live in my country (being someone highly intellectual in a country where the incentive to science is almost nil).<p>There are a ton of countries which pretty much accept anyone who wants to migrate there. Virtually all people who move to a new country tend to be rich. A rural farmer in china&#x27;s north west doesn&#x27;t know how to move to Canada.<p>There&#x27;s a brain value and potential for population decline in places. Germany for example is going to have a terrible 2030s. They pretty much will let anyone in because they simply need brains. They are tremendously wealthy and can pay for integration costs.<p>UAE is another, they are oil rich and can afford to bring anyone in. They will invest in anything. They have what 50 trade zones? This basically just completed: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dubai_Maritime_City" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dubai_Maritime_City</a><p>Very smart of them to do this as well. there&#x27;s a finite amount of oil, but brain power is infinite money.<p>&gt;having the culture of tribe &quot;b&quot;,<p>You never explained what this is. It&#x27;s possible you have a culture that is hostile to immigration?<p>For example socialism is quite hostile. USSR didn&#x27;t trust border guards. That was the job of KGB to make sure nobody is crossing their borders. The only people who ever got into the USSR were top brains. Much of their actions were quite related to orchestrating brain drain. They also made big effort into education. It&#x27;s difficult to offer social programs or welfare net and also be bringing in the unwashed as it were.<p>The thing as well. Even in countries where immigration isn&#x27;t open. If you talk to an embassy and make the case for how you might contribute to their country. They will just let you in.
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PaulHoule大约 3 年前
If a person is so self-centered and willing to turn his back on his fellow countrymen I wonder if he&#x27;ll do the same for us when we fail to give him 100% of what he wants 100%, when he sees that citizenship here has some responsibilities as well as right.<p>(e.g. what if an American thought he didn&#x27;t share in the economic structure because he doesn&#x27;t want to live in a country that burns fossil fuels, thought the space program was a big waste of money, doesn&#x27;t want to fund pensions because they don&#x27;t benefit him now, thinks his vote won&#x27;t make a difference.)
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