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EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

648 点作者 starsep大约 3 年前

52 条评论

Freak_NL大约 3 年前
It&#x27;s scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his age in a private pool).<p>That&#x27;s not CSAM right? But who knows how the AI will mark those happy pics? Some quirk in its programming and training leading to them being pushed way up whatever ranking is used? It&#x27;s a nude child after all, and that is most likely one of the few things such an algorithm can detect quite reliably.<p>The automated filter won&#x27;t care about the context though, and if any of the recent failures of algorithms ruining peoples lives are anything to go by (the Dutch Toeslagenaffaire comes to mind), being flagged by the CSAM filter is a high risk event — even if you can clear your name later by human intervention — because now you are on a list.<p>1: People tend to conjure up horrific images of underage children getting raped by adults when they hear &#x27;CSAM&#x27; or &#x27;child pornography&#x27;, but when you read up on the legal definitions used it becomes very vague, quite fast. A seventeen year old boy sending a dick pic to his 18 year old lover is producing child pornography and can in many jurisdictions be sentenced as such, and nudism of any minor can be seen as CSAM if the pose they strike can be construed as &#x27;erotic&#x27; — yet there is no clear definition of what this means, falling squarely into “I&#x27;ll know it when I see it” territory.
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xeeeeeeeeeeenu大约 3 年前
I don&#x27;t think this proposal is quite enough, we can do better to protect the children.<p>The homes of the people who champion this proposal should be thoroughly searched for child abuse materials <i>every week</i>. Naturally, their personal electronic devices should be taken for analysis. I understand this may cause them some inconvenience, but think of the children!
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schroeding大约 3 年前
The worst thing is that, while the EU proposes dubious stuff like this, the police <i>doesn&#x27;t</i> actually try to remove such content from the internet or are at least really ineffective at doing so. There was a documentary[1] from the german public tv station NDR in which reporters &#x2F; journalists managed to delete the majority of content from one such CSAM forum, by sending deletion requests to the hosters. The police just... did nothing about it? :&#x2F;<p>It&#x27;s mind boggling. It would be nice if only 50% of the energy put into laws with questionable results like this, would be used to give victims of sexual child abuse more help and support (or, in many cases, some at all) to continue living as much as possible despite the monsters in their own heads that such sexual abuse creates, wouldn&#x27;t it? :&#x2F;<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=iItLpwkQMUQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=iItLpwkQMUQ</a> Sadly without official english subtitles, but you can run this article about it through deepl.com: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;investigativ&#x2F;panorama&#x2F;kinderpornografie-loeschung-101.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;investigativ&#x2F;panorama&#x2F;kinderpornog...</a>
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krono大约 3 年前
Yeah not like this. I will turn myself into a black hole as much as possible.<p>If they somehow ever come to suspect me of these things I will gladly do anything I can to support their investigations. They can come by with a warrant, look through my message history specifically and only for evidence related to their investigation, it will happen in my presence, and no copies of my data will be made and&#x2F;or fed into the basilisk. You know, how it would normally go.<p>What in the world are they thinking over there.
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bambax大约 3 年前
&quot;Potential victims&quot; are not victims. That&#x27;s where the slippery slope begins.
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weddpros大约 3 年前
Incest is the massive child abuse elephant in the room, and listening to our communications won&#x27;t help those millions of children who suffer. Almost 7 million in France (1).<p>I&#x27;m disgusted. I&#x27;m pretty sure when they say &quot;one child in 5,6 or 7&quot;, it&#x27;s really incest in 90-99% of cases, not some internet pedophile they claim to catch.<p>They won&#x27;t protect children with that law, because it&#x27;s not the right law to fight child abuse.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fr.statista.com&#x2F;statistiques&#x2F;1231341&#x2F;nombre-victimes-inceste-france&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fr.statista.com&#x2F;statistiques&#x2F;1231341&#x2F;nombre-victimes...</a>
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searchableguy大约 3 年前
Could push for increasing surveillance be related to the recent adoption of digital social credit, CBDC (digital currency), and predictive policy systems in EU countries such as itlay, Netherlands, denmark, and the US?<p>You would need a continous stream of data for building those.<p>It makes a lot of sense if you look at it as countries trying to replicate success of Chinese growth and systems which are highly centralized and depend on the above factors.
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Mizza大约 3 年前
Isn&#x27;t this an insanely stupid idea? Doesn&#x27;t it open the door to a new type of ransomware - pay up, or we&#x27;ll flood your devices with CSAM and submit a tip about it?
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cebert大约 3 年前
CSAM is terrible but how common is it to justify invading all of our privacy. Cars can kill people. Should we ban those? We know alcohol is damaging, maybe we should ruin that fun for everyone too.
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Macha大约 3 年前
As with the UK internet filters, the next step will be &quot;Oh, so we have all this infrastructure already, we should extend it to other forms of illegal content, like piracy, DRM circumvention, etc&quot;
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can16358p大约 3 年前
I don&#x27;t think the actual purpose here is to protect children.<p>The actual purpose here to invade people&#x27;s privacy, (ab)using a sensitive topic like children sexual abuse as a scapegoat as many people don&#x27;t want to oppose to some protection on a sensitive topic and be marked as a potential criminal (or criminal ideology supporter).
hnthrowaway0328大约 3 年前
Basically some excuses to increase bureaucratic power.<p>Step 1: Find some excuses (climate, gender equality, CSAM, all legitimate)<p>Step 2: Create layers and layers of committees and legislations (happy lawyers and maybe accountants), increase social cost in general<p>Step 3: Extend to other purposes if possible
35803288大约 3 年前
I&#x27;ll be brief.<p>All chats, calls and emails by EU MPs should be public. Then and only then, they could pass this monstrosity.
varispeed大约 3 年前
So when I talked about these proposals few years ago, I was told I am a conspiracy theorist and the EU wouldn&#x27;t have done such a thing. People blindly believe that the EU is this source of universal greatness and there is nothing sinister going on behind the scenes. Unfortunately this effort goes beyond the EU - other countries, mainly those ran by WEF people, develop similar changes. How are they going to determine your social credit score, without knowing your thoughts and who you talk to?
Loic大约 3 年前
What is interesting is that running such software on my systems would breach all the NDA I have with my customers. As a company, it would not be possible to work anymore from the EU.
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str3wer大约 3 年前
this keeps getting proposed every few months and it keeps getting rejected
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hexo大约 3 年前
I can&#x27;t help myself. Everytime I see &quot;CSAM&quot; I read it as SCAM. Because thats what the legislation is.
1023bytes大约 3 年前
Seems like it would be sufficient to implement it only on children&#x27;s accounts
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DeathArrow大约 3 年前
Surveillance is for children. Search without warrants is to keep us safe from drugs. War is for peace and democracy.<p>How much can politicians, activists and beaurocrats pervert the truth?
belter大约 3 年前
Recent discussions<p>&quot;European Commission prefers breaking privacy to protecting kids&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31341249" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31341249</a><p>&quot;Chat control: EU Commission presents mass surveillance plan on May 11&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31329368" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31329368</a>
einpoklum大约 3 年前
&gt; In its draft law to combat child sexual abuse<p>It seems like the idea is to oppress people so much it takes their minds off of the sexual abuse they suffered in childhood.
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imchillyb大约 3 年前
If you &#x2F;truly&#x2F; believe that this is about CSAM, you&#x27;ve got your head firmly entrenched up your own ass.<p>This is -yet another- power grab by The State; that&#x27;s all this is.<p>Every human on earth should be firing the SoBs that suggest these things. Every single legislator that champions these types of privacy invasion should be fired; period.<p>Their names are on a big list now. Fire these assholes.
api大约 3 年前
It’ll get worse when it becomes obvious that on device scanning is unenforceable without control of the device. Next up will be a ban on unsigned apps and independent app stores and&#x2F;or an outright ban on encryption.<p>The EU is about to become as bad as China or perhaps even worse if this stuff goes forward.
zrosandic大约 3 年前
So it seems that no one should use anymore any &quot;digital&quot;, e.g. mobile, mail or whatever &quot;over the wire&quot; way of communication. I was always worried about communicating that has any surveillance. My own stuff should be my own things. We should use older way of communication between us on daily basis and just occasionally use the &quot;over the digital media&quot; communication for quick agreement on person to person or person to group meetings. Anyway, all this gone so far that we really do not need digital way of communication, sharing things. The things like Facebook are crap. The peoples are not digital, they are physical beings and the way we should interact is out of the &quot;digital world&quot;.
DeathArrow大约 3 年前
This is the new democracy. This is the new freedom. What is the difference from China or Russia?
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nbzso大约 3 年前
My goto solution since Apple CSAM fiasco: 1. Manjaro on office computers. 2. MacOS Catalina with Little Snitch for designers. 3. Air-gapped MacOS Mojave for testing and designers. 4.Limited smartphone usage to banking apps and phone calls. 5. Using dedicated camera for photography, if uploaded - metadata cleaning. 6. Serious offline book, movies, articles archive. 7. No cloud services. NAS only. 8. Limited social media activity, 20 minutes of Twitter, similar usage for Hackernews. 9. No connections to internet without active VPN. 10. Using internet primary for work.
anovikov大约 3 年前
But certainly everyone who really wants will block it, so it will ONLY be used for surveillance of the innocent, probably to influence their political views, or punish the baddies?
linesinthesand大约 3 年前
Traditional detective work will always be the best way to uncover real crimes of this nature. Any mention of this in support of mass surveillance is just a ruse.
b65e8bee43c2ed0大约 3 年前
I feel that in the near future, we&#x27;ll have a campaign against E2EE with the intensity of the current campaign against guns in the US
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a-dub大约 3 年前
seems like maybe a better approach might be to require software developers to give parents&#x2F;guardians features that allow a comprehensive view into the online activities of their children.<p>although unclear, that creates more visibility than has ever existed and could cause problems for kids who have different views from their parents.<p>we&#x27;re in uncharted territory, really.
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stef25大约 3 年前
If anyone&#x27;s read the full proposal, does it specify what types of communication they want to monitor? It seems unlikely that providers like Google and Meta are just going to turn off their E2E encryption and let the EU plug in their cable.<p>Anything else (like just monitoring national providers) will surely just be pointless.
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ernirulez大约 3 年前
EU is a hidden and well thought dictatorship, disguised as a democracy with values where everybody who complains and says otherwise is marked as an enemy. An autocracy full of useless burocrats who live out of citizens taxes
StuckPointer大约 3 年前
Ironic that this is coming out of the tutanota people whose product disabled my newly opened account, based on unspecified suspicions, for 48 hours, during which mails sent to it bounced as undeliverable, and only notified me about this fact upon subsequent login.
taylorius大约 3 年前
Don&#x27;t get me wrong, the EU never met a piece of snooping legislation they didn&#x27;t like, but the fact that the top part of the page is trying to sell me some encrypted email address makes me wonder about the article&#x27;s editorial integrity...
worstenbrood大约 3 年前
This will push &quot;criminals&quot; further away from the common applications and they&#x27;ll start using their own (forks?) and setup their own servers. Then there is no control at all anymore.
quazar大约 3 年前
The title page states:<p>&gt; Text with EEA relevance<p>So it&#x27;s not only EU, but basically whole Europe.
tluyben2大约 3 年前
Are they cooperating with the UK; seems there were a lot of requests for proposals from them during covid with millions attached to scan e2e connections and other csam measures.
Tozen大约 3 年前
What&#x27;s the logic with this? So, everyone is a suspect, who must be under constant and continual surveillance. You are guilty, until you can prove that you are innocent.
macinjosh大约 3 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg&amp;t=182s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KIvRljAaNgg&amp;t=182s</a>
outside1234大约 3 年前
So we need to always use a VPN - got it.
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yedpodtrzitko大约 3 年前
When all you have is We Need More Surveillance, everything looks like Because Terrorism &#x2F; CSAM.
severak_cz大约 3 年前
I don&#x27;t understand how does &quot;grooming detection algorithm&quot; looks.
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brainzap大约 3 年前
And all the energy and effort and money doesn’t even help against child abuse.
kornhole大约 3 年前
How can they scan messages on my xmpp server using OMEMO e2ee?
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psiops大约 3 年前
Does seem a bit incongruous with EU efforts to protect privacy like GDPR.
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wiz21c大约 3 年前
are there groups in europe that plan to make a public protest ? I&#x27;d like to join.
mensetmanusman大约 3 年前
CSAM = hash checking<p>There is no way to verify that a hash is actually checking for CSAM.<p>It can be used for anything by any future government good or bad.<p>E.g. an Austrian musician was recently imprisoned for 10 years for composing&#x2F;producing pro-Nazi songs. A hash check could find anyone who listened to the music (even reporters curious to listen to what they are reporting on.)<p>CSAM is a useful vehicle to get this technology deployed since no one is pro CSAM.
baud147258大约 3 年前
didn&#x27;t we already discuss this yesterday and the day before?
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one-red-cent大约 3 年前
How do we stop this?
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insta_anon大约 3 年前
Anyone who thinks that this is really about protecting children should look into how the catholic church, who has a long long [0] history of abusing children in Europe, is treated. If governments wanted to fight child abuse they could easily start there.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_in_Europe" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_c...</a>
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jstummbillig大约 3 年前
The HN attitude on anything touching privacy with a ten foot pole is awkward at best. It&#x27;s clearly a hard problem and increasingly so. Being dogmatic about privacy regulations without a solution for the abuse caused by those who are open to abusing others seems a little too internet-hippie to be taken seriously in 2022, and that&#x27;s a little concerning when it&#x27;s the echo chambers of those best qualified and responsible for coming up with workable solutions.<p>Edit: What a cacophony of indignation and polemic black&#x2F;white responses. Absolutely shocking.
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tut-urut-utut大约 3 年前
The EU is clearly becoming a dystopian surveillance state, not that much different from China. And we still think we live are somehow better than that, and we live in democracy and freedom?<p>That being said, what are the realistic alternatives? Self compiled Signal? Matrix running on own server? Something else, like these Sky app supposedly used by criminals and drug dealers?