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Thoughts on OKRs

304 点作者 joeblubaugh将近 3 年前

57 条评论

commandlinefan将近 3 年前
Every time I&#x27;ve seen it tried (over and over again in the span of a 30-year career), the &quot;goals&quot; are based on whatever the priority&#x2F;flavor-of-the month happens to be when goal-setting is announced. I&#x27;ve never seen those priorities last an entire year, but I <i>have</i> been called to account for why I didn&#x27;t personally meet the goals that I was pressured into setting &quot;for myself&quot; even though the priorities shifted over the course of the year.
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balefrost将近 3 年前
I think a lot of people&#x27;s introduction to OKRs is John Doerr&#x27;s book &quot;Measure What Matters&quot;. That&#x27;s where I learned about them.<p>The book explains how Andy Grove introduced the practice at Intel and it was very effective. The book seems to attribute the success to the practice itself and seems to say &quot;if you adopt OKRs, you will succeed like Intel did&quot;.<p>I suspect that this success is misattributed. I suspect that Andy Grove was probably an excellent manager and I think he could have succeeded with something other than OKRs. I think he understood that what was <i>really</i> important was to get everybody across the organization to focus on essentially one big goal. He needed to make sure that everybody was pulling in the same direction and together, and OKRs provided a tool to do that.<p>When my organization decided to implement OKRs, my question to my peers was &quot;who is our Andy Grove?&quot;<p>If the people implementing OKRs focus too much on the practice and not enough on the motivation, I think you just end up with cargo-culting. The setting and tracking of KRs <i>becomes</i> the objective. So people treat it like busywork because OKRs don&#x27;t really seem to matter - they just gets in the way of the &quot;important&quot; stuff.<p>As one of my coworkers says, the title of the book is &quot;Measure What Matters&quot;, but it&#x27;s too easy to slide into &quot;What Is Measured Is What Matters&quot;.
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cletus将近 3 年前
I used OKRs on several teams to varying degrees at Google. Not a fan. Here are my complaints:<p>1. It makes organizations slow and inflexible. I used to joke that as soon as another team was involved in something you needed to do it would probably take a quarter. why? Well what you wanted probably wasn&#x27;t on this quarter&#x27;s OKRs so it would be an uphill battle to get them to do it. You&#x27;d have to argue about getting it into next quarter&#x27;s OKRs;<p>2. OKRs can be structured in such a way that you can grade quite well while having achieved absolutely nothing;<p>3. Teams can be held to different standards. Some get easy OKRs. Some get harder OKRs. So it&#x27;s still subject to the political-perception problems inherent in such organizations;<p>5. It is largely for show for upper management. I&#x27;ve been in 2 hour planning meetings where a bunch of teams speak for 2 minutes about what they&#x27;re working on. This might be useful for directors+ but is really a waste of the time of 50-100 other people. This is a problem with status meetings too;<p>6. Even grading OKRs can be subjective and political. I recall one famous example where someone (<i>cough</i> Vic <i>cough</i>) said they had a goal of 100M users. They actually only got to 10M. Grade? 0.7.<p>There was a running meme at Google about feedback that went something like this: This project would&#x27;ve failed without this person. It failed anyway but it definitely would&#x27;ve without this person.<p>I like this meme because it illustrates how the same set of facts can be used to argue how someone did a good job or a bad job and the difference between the two is whether or not the org likes them. The same set of facts can be summarized as &quot;this probject failed to ship&quot; and &quot;we failed fast, learned a lot and will take those learnings into future projects&quot;.<p>OKRs suffer from exactly those same problems.
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andrewingram将近 3 年前
The most common failure states I keep seeing are:<p>* Reverse-engineering the todo list to produce OKRs<p>* OKRs being the wrong fit for the team and&#x2F;or the company&#x27;s lifecycle.<p>The second one is more damaging, because it&#x27;s subtle, whereas the first is obvious to everyone involved.<p>Fundamentally, OKRs are a tool that should allow teams to make decisions about what to focus on, with the knowledge that they&#x27;re aligned with the business objectives. If a team already has an immutable quarter+ roadmap, they&#x27;re not making any decisions, they&#x27;re just working; OKRs aren&#x27;t a good fit for this kind of team. OKRs done well _should_ result in teams feeling empowered, because they can see the link between their actions&#x2F;decisions and overall success. OKRs done poorly have the exact opposite effective; not just benign, but harmful.
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nkrisc将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve been through several jobs that used OKRs, and even had to read a book on it at one point, and to be completely honest I still have no idea what they are. Maybe I&#x27;m just dumb or can&#x27;t grasp it, but while I know what all the words mean, I still don&#x27;t understand what it is or why it&#x27;s useful. I&#x27;d write some &quot;OKRs&quot; based on what my boss told me to write, who was told be their boss, and then I&#x27;d enter them into some HR system and never saw or heard from them again. It was all very cargo cult-y.<p>I never really understood how an OKR is at all applicable to an individual. Maybe our OKRs were bad but they were always related to increasing some metric or measure. I can&#x27;t personally, directly affect any of that. I can do my damnedest to do good work that I think will help with that, but ultimately I have no control over whether our conversion rate goes down because some other department did something that hurt it. Yeah we did a great job on some landing page but then marketing pushed the wrong audience to it so it tanks. How does an OKR help with that? Now it looks like I haven&#x27;t met any of my goals?<p>Maybe the problem was we always had these executive-level, vague &quot;objectives&quot; set by the C-suite, but then nobody knew what to actually do with that. Object: be an industry leader in innovation. What does that even <i>mean</i>?
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serial_dev将近 3 年前
There are so many ways to do OKRs poorly, and I&#x27;ve seen many. I love the book in theory, but when I saw OKRs in practice, every company implemented this poorly.<p>&gt; Let&#x27;s not have objectives just yet, we are not ready to communicate our goals yet with you, let&#x27;s come up with key results... More like tasks, really just Jira tickets, our team already had to commit with management for the next year, we have a release plan and everything, so there is very little wiggle room there.<p>&gt; And please, don&#x27;t ask about any of those goals, you are just a code monkey, and you weren&#x27;t there at all the meetings, but trust us, it&#x27;s the most important and impactful thing we can do...<p>&gt; Anyway, What&#x27;s in the next 6 sprints? Let&#x27;s just put them somehow in this OKR spreadsheet. Let&#x27;s hope we don&#x27;t need to change anything in the next sprint...<p>&gt; Hmm, alright, it looks like we have some space there, let&#x27;s come up with 2-3 extra projects that realistically would need a team effort and a month focused work to complete, but you will do it on your own... Just remember that you should only work on items in the sprint, and the next 12 sprints are already planned, and we can&#x27;t add your tasks to any of the sprints. You also need to convince the team that it&#x27;s important, but please don&#x27;t bother the team with your tasks, they will lose focus on sprint items.<p>&gt; I remember the book said something about something-something measurable. Unfortunately, no matter how many analysts we hire, they all quit around 3-4 months after they join, I wonder why that is. Anyway, we don&#x27;t really have &quot;numbers&quot;, so we can&#x27;t come up with metrics, and we can&#x27;t measure our success in any way, and we don&#x27;t know whether gigantic projects bring any improvement at all.<p>&gt; Oh, and I&#x27;m pretty sure I will not be your boss, whoops, sorry, &quot;competency lead&quot; in three months because I&#x27;m actively interviewing to get out of here. Cheerio!
Traster将近 3 年前
Quite recently I quit a company just as they were bringing in OKRs. The reason they bought in OKRs was because they felt that the engineering organisation was failing to meet the needs of the company. So they put together a list of Objectives and key results. They basically said &quot;This is what we have to do to be successful&quot;. There were a few small hitches. Half the Objectives were outside the scope of the engineering team. We could execute perfectly, but if our internal customer fucked up, our objective would be blown. They explained this was because it doesn&#x27;t matter if we meet some technical objective if it turns out that wasn&#x27;t necessary for the company to make money. The second small hitch was they were diametrically opposed objectives. We were to going to increase our release cadence 10x. We were also going to reduce production issues by 100%. That&#x27;s right, our objective was 0 production issues whilst massively increasing our release cadence with 0 extra resources. The third issue is that they were unacheivable - we were supposed to deliver a 3 year project that would take 10 people in 1 year with 5 people.<p>It missed that the reason the engineering org failed to deliver was that the internal customer would change the requirements of 6 month projects roughly once a week.<p>It was basically an exercise in trying to pin blame on engineers for the failure of the company. It didn&#x27;t bother me too much because I was quitting anyway.<p>OKRs don&#x27;t fix dysfunctional organisations.
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whywhywhywhy将近 3 年前
&quot;We&#x27;re introducing OKRs, they&#x27;re for your benefit so you know where to focus and can track how you&#x27;re improving and the team success, they wont be used to judge your salary&quot;<p>6 months later<p>&quot;So yeah that&#x27;s the most we&#x27;re gonna offer you for this raise because your OKR score was only...&quot;<p>Every time.
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tonioab将近 3 年前
80% of the value of OKRs is in the discussions they create, not in the actual list of OKRs that is produced in the process. The more an organization focuses on the technical aspects of producing a perfect OKR list or on &quot;grading&quot; the OKRs, the less value they will have.<p>In particular, the &quot;KR&quot; part - quantifiable outcomes for the goals - usually helps in clarifying vague projects or ideas that may otherwise harm the team&#x27;s focus.<p>It&#x27;s similar to the famous Warren Buffett&#x27;s advice on identifying your priorities: pick 20 ideas you have and identify the top 5 goals that you absolutely want to get done; then, throw away the other 15 goals and make sure that you never get tempted to work on them.
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krnlpnc将近 3 年前
The main problem I&#x27;ve seen with OKRs in a technical setting is that they haven&#x27;t accounted for steady state support, or sudden urgent issues.<p>Both of those make up important work that has to be done in a timeframe shorter than the OKR reporting period.<p>As a result important work goes untracked, and completeness of KRs are affected since people had to focus on &quot;unexpected&quot; issues instead.<p>A compounding effect is burnout because a persons OKR workload and review process doesn&#x27;t accurately reflect the day-to-day work that they did. Heroics are needed to avoid people higher up the management ladder seeing unfinished work under your name.
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Apreche将近 3 年前
My issue with OKRs is trying to apply them to employees who have no power to make business decisions.
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UglyToad将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve only done them at one place over 1 year but they&#x27;re easily among the worst things to come out of the Silicon Valley cargo-cult school of management.<p>The root problem is that what works for the front-page of the internet who have a firehose of money and millions of users probably doesn&#x27;t work for a pre-PMF start-up or B2B product. Primarily there&#x27;s insufficient &#x27;pressure&#x27; in any metrics to derive any meaningful signal from any changes a small group of developers can make. Any metric you can derive is way too noisy and spread over sales, marketing and development.<p>Sure, Gmail can change the location of the Compose button and measure the change in emails started with high reliability, but when your feature has at most 5 users and takes 2 months to deliver the impact is far less clear.<p>I felt in the company using OKRs we had one C-level person who was incredibly enthusiastic about them but with only 10 developers we&#x27;d have been far better served by a unifying vision and shared product understanding.
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athenot将近 3 年前
My biggest issue with OKRs comes from those who practice what could be called &quot;Aimless Key Results&quot;.<p>Instead of thinking about an <i>intuitive</i> objective and then try to come up with some form of measurable Key Result that can help assess whether the org is getting closer to—or further from—the objective, some skip the whole Objective part altogether. They become so stressed with having something measurable that they end up with KRs based on how easy they are to measure, regardless if they actually correlate to a supposed objective.<p>This is Goodhart&#x27;s Law[1] on steroids.<p>Healthy OKRs do exist but they have a few preconditions:<p>- the individuals devising them must fully internalize which are the objectives that do matter for the org, among an ocean of &quot;priorities&quot;.<p>- the KRs must be carefully thought out and evaluated against their vulnerability to the law of unintended consequences.<p>- the team(s) implementing the KRs must understand <i>why</i> theses KRs exist, their relationship to the Objective they serve, and how well (or not) they measure the objective.<p>- the leaders must be quick to change the KRs if there&#x27;s any doubt as to whether they are actually helping, or causing more damage. The &quot;why&quot; should remain relatively constant over time, the &quot;how&quot; can change.<p>- KRs that have thresholds should always be ambitious and very hard to actually meet, as they stretch the organization&#x27;s goals.<p>- Tying perforance bonuses to them is dangerous because it immediately results in gamification: Damn the Objective, I want my bonus!<p>OKRs can be incredibly tricky for middle management because the top leadership may have a decent objective to be pursued, and the line managers may have a good grasp on what success looks like. But the middle part is caught in between the 2, and this can create all sorts of fun artifacts of measurement, aka. dysfunctions. Especially if that middle management layer doesn&#x27;t have a rock solid understanding of the actual objectives and are only obsessed with the measuring part.<p>[1] When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. — <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Goodhart%27s_law#cite_note-Strathern1997-1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Goodhart%27s_law#cite_note-Str...</a>
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krinchan将近 3 年前
I think the only time I&#x27;ve seen OKRs work correctly is when they were super specific, singular, and very short term. The team I&#x27;ve seen use them generally picks something that aligns closely with something leadership wants to see progress on, that isn&#x27;t a multi-year project, and is easy to measure directly.<p>An example: Q1&#x27;s goal was around tagging of AWS resources for billing. Our CBO came down with some new practices and automation around tagging and was having trouble getting traction in our BU with getting those tags in place for existing projects.<p>The work was tedious, but not difficult. Progress is directly measurable (X of Y resources in Z account are tagged correctly) and the measuring is easily automated into a dashboard. It has a massive benefit for automating Change Management and Billing&#x2F;Budgeting bureaucracy.<p>I think OKRs have a place but I also think you just can&#x27;t centralize them the way various big companies do. Even the &quot;bottom-up&quot; version just doesn&#x27;t work because by the time the OKRs hit the C-Suite they&#x27;re just mangled and incomprehensible. The OKR in my example never &quot;escaped&quot; past middle management. All the C-Suite knew was the CBO stopped whining about people not tagging their stuff.
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msoad将近 3 年前
Whenever I see a website making the SIGN UP button bold and big but SIGN IN small and faded I am reminded how toxic OKRs are and how it end up hurting the user and eventually the business.<p>Making people mistakingly create new accounts indeed helps you hit your # of sign ups goal but at what cost?
jph将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve seen OKRs significantly improve teams when there&#x27;s full staff bottom-up commitment; I&#x27;ve seen OKRs totally fail when they&#x27;re drive-by top-down directives.<p>I maintain a repo of OKR guidance here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;joelparkerhenderson&#x2F;objectives-and-key-results" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;joelparkerhenderson&#x2F;objectives-and-key-re...</a>
SpaghettiX将近 3 年前
I read about OKRs briefly and worked at 2 companies that tried* to do it. Unfortunately, at both companies, management announced it to everyone, but I practically never heard anything after those announcements.<p>I would like to boil OKRs down to a combination of 2 things: &quot;goals + habits&quot;. Pick good goals, and design your days&#x2F;behaviours&#x2F;habits to get to that goal. Goals, habits, objectives, key results would all benefit from being measurable, clear, simple, etc.
SaltyBackendGuy将近 3 年前
The biggest issue I&#x27;ve seen with OKRs is that it just turns into a game, and then proceeds to get &quot;gamed&quot;. Separately, there has been more than one occasion where we chose to work on something OKR related but ended up providing less value to our end user as requirements changed mid quarter. Therefore making our initial OKR irrelevant, and preventing management from wanting to pivot to solve a real customer need.
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ryan-duve将近 3 年前
The scenarios described here are familiar even though I&#x27;ve only spent a small part of my career doing formal OKRs. If your next blog post continues to mirror my experience, it will paint a picture of a quarterly OKR debrief meeting where half the people didn&#x27;t work on their objectives and it just doesn&#x27;t matter because they got good work done anyway. People who really like process and checklists will nail their OKRs, but they probably would have gotten the same work done in the quarter regardless so, again, it doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>Upon reflection, it makes me wonder if OKRs are better used as a corrective tool for a team than as a formal process for already high performing teams.
zippergz将近 3 年前
I don&#x27;t disagree with any of this, but really these are problems with every goal-setting framework I have experienced in my career. Similar to performance review frameworks. It isn&#x27;t the framework that sucks; it is the exercise itself. I&#x27;ve become convinced that at a certain scale, it is impossible for a corporation to have a company-wide goal process or performance review process that adds more value than it detracts. I don&#x27;t know what the solution is, but I really don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s just &quot;find a better process.&quot;
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st3v3ndungan将近 3 年前
OKR&#x27;s without strategy or context (or OKR&#x27;s substituting for a strategy or context) is a killer I&#x27;ve seen. Especially if I&#x27;m &quot;laddering up&quot; my product&#x27;s OKRs.<p>This is where the bi-directional approach does work better than strictly top-down or bottom-up; my leadership probably doesn&#x27;t see the opportunities or constraints for my product, but for my opportunities to be attainable, I need to be swimming the same direction as my organization. Strategy gives me context for where I should be playing.
21723将近 3 年前
<i>I want to compare OKRs to Performance Reviews and Roadmapping. They’re all worthwhile ideas that can bring discipline and structure to the chaotic world of business, all dreaded by their participants for some reason.</i><p>It&#x27;s not mysterious, why those things are hated.<p>In business, there are innate conflicts of interest. The company wants to suck as much out of people, and pay as little, as it can. You want... something else. Not to be exploited. To have a career. To make more money. Doesn&#x27;t matter. The company is a paperclip maximizer and you are made of atoms it can use for something else. When you write OKRs, you have to generate information that will only be used against you--never for you. You have to pretend that you&#x27;re doing this out of some sense of mutuality when, in fact, the situation is inherently adversarial.<p>You might have a decent manager. Great. That happens sometimes. However, all these devices exist as ways for companies to make managers unable to protect their own people. That&#x27;s why &quot;Agile&quot; time-tracking exists. That&#x27;s why there are two management structures (product and people management) for reptilian executives to pit against each other. That&#x27;s why performance reviews with failure quotas exist. For your boss to be able to protect you from the company is the last thing the company wants.
savrajsingh将近 3 年前
This is why I prefer to work in startups. The objectives are more paying customers, more retention, and (for later stage companies) at a lower cost. If you&#x27;re not doing something that moves the needle on those things in a startup, you&#x27;re working on the wrong thing.
lloydatkinson将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve only been at one place that had OKR&#x27;s. That was my shortest job due to the toxic work environment. OKR&#x27;s are simple enablers of toxic environments due to the amount of goal post moving and gaslighting.<p>&quot;Here is an arbitrary goal &quot;&quot;&quot;you&quot;&quot;&quot; agreed to, why has it not been achieved?&quot;<p>&quot;Well, you didn&#x27;t really give me a choice and you also moved me to another project or the project was killed off&quot;<p>&quot;not good enough&quot;<p>Yeah, I&#x27;ll pass anywhere that encourages this.
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chopete3将近 3 年前
&#x2F;s<p>The best thing about OKRs<p>People: It helps companies dump as many people&#x2F;contractors as it can afford into a pod. Result: It supports this[0] kind of development process<p>That said, there will always be one or two genuine workaholics in every pod who write enough code to show something tangible. That helps keep the OKR&#x2F;Agile business go on forever.<p>0: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;IeKjsff" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;IeKjsff</a>
ucdavisguy将近 3 年前
So, in conclusion: 1-okrs should not be used to evaluate staff or be scored for pay raise decision. Oops, seems like some people still do that.<p>2-individuals should not be defining okrs at their level. I don’t see many people doing this anymore… even Google came out and advised against this practice as it leads to a lack of collaboration. And okrs end up looking like personal goals such as “buy house in Mountain View”<p>3-okrs should not be a to-do list, but looks like many, if not most, teams who think they are doing “okrs” simply make a to-do list and call it “okrs” which is ironic since okrs are about outcomes not output.<p>4-Okrs work best when leadership stops saying just “be innovative” and instead says “successfully expand the ecosystem of product ABC” Then describes why that objective is important and why now to educate and motivate the company. And then gets input to solicit how we will agree on what measurable progress will define the achievement of the objective so we all know what the goals are for the short term. But okrs do not work when krs look like “reduce the backlog” or “fix bugs” as those are not actually “krs” they are “to-do lists”<p>5- last point, and most importantly… okrs is a “verb”, a way of asking questions. You are doing okrs when you are asking yourself and others include the following questions:<p>A-what is the most important area to focus on making progress in near term? Why? B-how will measure progress on the objective? C-what is the intended outcome of the task (because people will answer question B with a task list)<p>If you ask these questions of yourself and others, good things happen. If you use okrs to make a to-do list or evaluate performance of staff, you will end up complaining that okrs don’t work. Your choice.
beebmam将近 3 年前
Never seen OKRs be anything but a disaster. Probably never will see anything else.
akomtu将近 3 年前
OKRs are New Year resolutions: &quot;this year I&#x27;m try to stop drinking&quot; or, if you want to sound more realistic, but still ambitions, then reword it to &quot;this year I&#x27;ll get less than 2 DUIs.&quot;
dbrueck将近 3 年前
OKRs just seem like another attempt in a long line of failed attempts to make development costs more predictable. I applaud the effort, but at any company I&#x27;ve worked, they&#x27;ve always turned into a stick used to beat on the underlings. I think I get how they could work in an ideal scenario, but the implementation of them has always failed, because the adopted process doesn&#x27;t allow them to shift even as things arise outside your control, because they got tied to raises&#x2F;bonuses in unfair ways, etc.<p>My only &quot;successful&quot; encounter with OKRs was at a company that really bought into them hard, and so over the course of about half a year I got the teams in my group to slowly get ahead of the curve, such that 90+% of every next-quarter OKR items were things we were done with already, so that we could spend pretty much the whole quarter dealing with fires or secretly getting new stuff done for the next-next quarter.
hatware将近 3 年前
I can&#x27;t be the only one who thinks the primary goal of OKRs is to keep non-technical managers employed, right?
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jaeming将近 3 年前
I remember when one member of my team put in an OKR for &quot;learn to play the guitar&quot; and mapped it into a training objective from above. It got approved, no questions asked. I was sort of disappointed management didn&#x27;t follow up and ask him to perform for us all at the end of the quarter.
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lisper将近 3 年前
The problem with OKRs is that they force you to set goals without doing anything to guide you about how to actually achieve those goals, or even to improve your odds. The industry fetish for OKRs is entirely due to survivorship bias. A few successful companies do OKRs and so now everyone does OKRs because no one stops to think about whether the success stories are because of OKRs or despite them. As an early Googler I can tell you from my firsthand experience that it was &quot;despite&quot; not &quot;because&quot;.<p>In fact, now that I reflect on it, the real function of OKRs is to get you to put in more hours, because either you haven&#x27;t met your KRs yet and you need to keep working, or you have met them, and so you didn&#x27;t set the bar high enough.
kiloreven将近 3 年前
My current employer use OKRs to align the different levels of the org and to help each team structure their work. We use an approach that is mostly owned on the lowest level; company leadership set long and medium term objectives for the company, area&#x2F;department heads set goals for each 4-month period, and each team gets to work out their own OKRs for the next period. The team objectives do not not need to match area objectives 1-to-1; area objectives are mostly guiding.<p>I started rather recently, and I&#x27;m in my second OKR-period currently. This has been my first experience with OKR, and so far it&#x27;s been on the strong side of positive; we get some guiding principles to work towards (but nothing too concrete or checkbox-final) and it works well. Sure, we won&#x27;t be able to solve everything we write down, but our team is aligned on our own direction and a course that we control ourselves , to a large degree, but still within the overall goals of the company.<p>In my experience, software engineering is about 20% creating the solution, 15% tuning and debugging the solution and 65% understanding the problem.<p>Within this perspective, the work of talking through the problems that your team is working to solve, and contextualizing why you&#x27;re solving them, is highly valuable and counts towards understanding the problem. The process of defining OKRs, within the correct frame of reference and expectations, can work very well for this.<p>IMO, using the backlog to define upcoming work can enrich this process as well; it brings context, but should not becone the final OKR &quot;product&quot; alone.<p>I&#x27;ve only ever encountered OKRs on a team level, but I cannot grasp the value they bring as individual goals. The real value in OKRs lies in the process leading up to defining them, not the objectives and results themselves.<p>A recurring theme in the horror stories I&#x27;ve read regarding corporate strategies is that they tend to be implemented with a goal of rigidity rather than fluidity. And making rigid processes that aren&#x27;t compatible with team autonomy brings with helplessness and alienation between the goal-setters and those working to deliver.
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esel2k将近 3 年前
Quiet shocked by the negative comments regarding OKR. As a Product Manager I constantly have to tell the story to management after what I go. Whats the goal… And so the Objective is usefull. Example: Increase usage - so I look for weekly active users increase by x.<p>If I now set that as part of my salary target etc is a different question, I am not a fan off. But having a direction and looking ar various is a good solution.<p>As always if OKR don’t help you, don’t do them. But still better to try to measure and improve to get a better outcome, than to blindly follow the CEO or other brainfarts…
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mattgreenrocks将近 3 年前
Since OKRs are becoming so commonplace, what are some good strategies for playing the game sufficiently well enough to stay under the radar without a lot of time investment into it?
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Patrol8394将近 3 年前
OKRs have become, like peer reviews, just one of those &quot;corporate&quot; things that you have to do, but that nobody really cares.<p>My performance&#x2F;bonus&#x2F;promotions were never affected positive&#x2F;negative, in any way by my OKR.<p>Frequent re-org and change of direction very often invalidate any OKR one might even have tried to achieve.<p>I wish companies realize that OKR, like working from the office, are things of the past that no longer fit in the world we live in, where things move at an incredible fast pace.
crakhamster01将近 3 年前
&gt; If it takes 3 weeks into the quarter to define your OKRs for the quarter, well, congratulations, you spent those 3 weeks choosing what you’ll actually do this quarter. You’ll make the case that the things you’re working on are really important and already in progress, even if they’re not lined up exactly with the department OKRs. And they may be really important, and the OKRs may be wrong because we didn’t spend enough time working on them and took too long to deliver them, and we didn’t leave room for bottom-up objective setting. So we do the important things we’re already doing, and we’ll fudge the KRs a bit at the end of the quarter.<p>LOL this paragraph really spoke to me. I&#x27;ve been in FAANG for 6 years, and every time roadmapping&#x2F;OKRs come around this always happens.<p>As an IC, those weeks spent planning are precious time that could be spent landing ~impact~ for your performance review, so you might do a mini-planning session to figure out how to use your time. That project that you picked up ends up getting traction, but due to disconnects with the team&#x27;s planning process, the overall OKRs no longer align with your work! Guess we&#x27;ll have to fudge the numbers...
est将近 3 年前
I work at a anti-fraud department, settings up OKR is always difficult because fraud happens in every unexpected way. IDK how others are doing it, but I&#x27;d really like to see a detailed OKR for a game like Tetris.
crsv将近 3 年前
Ah yes, the 1000 word useless collection of thoughts on a nuanced and dense topic, followed by a flurry of kvetching and outlier horror stories in the comments. Classic HN work organization and management discussion.
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larsrc将近 3 年前
There&#x27;s plenty of problems with OKRs, but almost all the OKRs I encountered were bottom-up. I&#x27;m sure it was different in other parts of the company, though. Working on developer tools is the best.
brutus1213将近 3 年前
I have heard about OKRs but feel I don&#x27;t really grok them. How can the whole org have common goals. Consider an IT dept. In my company, they ONLY focus on security .. which means they spend all their time locking things down and making life intolerable for end users. From my perspective, security should be one metric but others would be subjective (user&#x27;s perspective of IT systems and services) and objective (avg number of tickets, turn-around time, etc.). Even in a chip company, how does a sub-org like IT implement OKRs?
CobrastanJorji将近 3 年前
&gt; All of them set a hierarchical pyramid of OKRs that cascaded down, rather than a set of OKRs that worked bottom-up, even if the company wasn’t in a crisis and would have benefited from promoting innovation.<p>Maybe I&#x27;ve only worked companies that do OKRs wrong, but I can&#x27;t imagine what the bottom-up version of this would even look like. Individual teams pick their own OKRs, and then the exec above that looks at all of the OKRs that their various teams have decided on and then summarizes them in some way as their own OKRs after the fact?
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simonswords82将近 3 年前
Tired of people such as author of this post jumping on the OKRs are bad bandwagon. OKRs are a tool - they are not inherently good or bad but used well they can be good and misused they can be bad.<p>My source for this is when I first used OKRs to manage a small team they were fantastic. Really focussed our energy and drove the team forward.<p>Now I&#x27;m trying to grow the business I&#x27;m struggling to make OKRs stick as well as they did previously. I truly believe I&#x27;m misusing them as a tool - and now need to rethink my approach.
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Kalanos将近 3 年前
I agree. What could be more important? It is leadership&#x27;s job to set the goals. If the goals fail, leadership has failed.<p>Here is an expanded summary for those who want to learn more: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@rocketsyntax&#x2F;okr-framework-strategic-planning-to-complement-agile-execution-1d03a49d3e1a" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@rocketsyntax&#x2F;okr-framework-strategic-pla...</a>
theuri将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve been wrestling with this recently as well, and found a great read re: OKRS versus a framework called OGSM.<p>It provides the metrics and strategies that OKRs are missing - and results in deeper thinking up front.<p>Here&#x27;s a good read on this - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;infinite-beta&#x2F;ogsm-okr-8761dcb50e02" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;infinite-beta&#x2F;ogsm-okr-8761dcb50e02</a>
ad404b8a372f2b9将近 3 年前
Objectives and key results (OKRs). It&#x27;s baffling that software engineers don&#x27;t understand they have to define a variable before using it.
neogodless将近 3 年前
Uh, please see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31420938" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31420938</a> (Stop using grey text). Especially on a grey background. My eyes don&#x27;t have enough life in them to try to read this.<p>(Yes this is off topic and about formatting and it&#x27;s boring.)
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digitalsanctum将近 3 年前
While I admire the optimism of what OKRs are suppose to do, I&#x27;ve never seen them done well or with a positive net outcome. In reality, it&#x27;s been another one of those things that require discipline by everyone involved and is harder to accomplish at a large organization.
kbenson将近 3 年前
So, if you follow the link from the first word of the blog (the one giving details on what OKRs are), it takes you to a site[1] which when you go to the cookie prefs when prompted about what cookies you want, has a section I haven&#x27;t really seen before (or was oblivious to before), called &quot;Unclassified&quot; with quite a few cookies. The difference between this section and the others? While others have a checkbox forced checked (Necessary cookies) or a checkbox you can toggle to accept or not (Preferences and Marketing), the Unclassified section doesn&#x27;t offer up any checkbox at all.<p>Seems awfully convenient to have a bunch of cookies you haven&#x27;t classified so don&#x27;t need to offer a choice to your users about.<p>1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whatmatters.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whatmatters.com&#x2F;</a>
neerajk将近 3 年前
Any pro-OKR arguments now sound more and more like &quot;But Real communism has never been tried&quot; :)
bezospen15将近 3 年前
OKRs are a joke made up by MBA product focused types to try and remain relevant
sigmaskipper将近 3 年前
OKRs written properly drive business and development initiatives. They should be boiled down to the smallest team so that they can make a big impact on the business while not doing worthless dev work.
cyberlurker将近 3 年前
Am I the only one that saw “jibe” at the end of the article, thought it was incorrect, looked it up, and discovered I have been using “jive” incorrectly instead for years?
dboreham将近 3 年前
OKRs are a tool that barely competent psychopaths reach for. Possibly they work for other use cases (sales?) where everyone&#x27;s a psychopath. The high functioning psychopaths don&#x27;t need such ineffective tools.
hardware2win将近 3 年前
I feel like OKRs are poor version of google&#x27;s 20% free time policy
motohagiography将近 3 年前
While I think OKRs are necessary, and strategic leadership is necessary to achieve them, consider that whether a company is being led to an objective, or managed to optimize itself - is entirely dependent on the stage of the company. I&#x27;d argue optimization phase OKRs are negatively defined, where growth phase OKRs are positively definied.<p>Stages I think of as survival&#x2F;subsistance, product market fit, and max market share, are growth phases, whereas stages like max stock price and max gross margins, are optimization phases of a company. Optimization phases are when you already have market fit and a revenue stream, where as a board you can just drop in a bunch of MBAs to refine and hollow out the org and stabilize the company as a revenue stream in a portfolio. Management is value extraction, and it is a specific skillset that a company needs when it has a revenue producing asset, which it needs to optimize for stability, so that it can be used as collateral for <i>leverage</i> into new ventures. That&#x27;s the point of management: to stabilize an asset with steady hands so that it is a coherent asset that can be traded and leveraged.<p>Leadership qualities in managers are mainly plumage on (or cover for) their foundation of extractive skills, and are neither sufficient or necessary. You can&#x27;t manage something until there is a null hypothesis, where the thing makes value or money already (default-alive in PG parlence). This is why managers creating OKRs often sound so vague, it&#x27;s because they rig the OKR definition to avoid a perception of failure that would cause their attrition in a zero-sum optimization environment. OKRs are necessarily about black-and-white outcomes, whereas, managing is a matter of sustaining and directing an equllibrium. (yes, b&amp;w thinking is usually considered &quot;bad,&quot; but mainly from a mangerial frame of reference). I&#x27;m proposing OKRs are a growth&#x2F;leadership phase tool that feels cargo culty in optimization&#x2F;management phase companies.<p>Smart people become managers because they can reason abstractly about stuff that makers, leaders, and IC&#x27;s take personally, and there is a lot of value in learning to respect that skill, even when it is repellant, and not fall into the trap of merely moralizing our own limitations. (my bias should be obvious)<p>Leadership is for the growth phases of a company, where you need to get from zero to one, a to b, subsistance to product market fit - where the function of leadership is to affect change. A company whose majority growth phase is behind it is in a stable state doesn&#x27;t need change, it needs to be managed and optimized as an asset for leverage. It&#x27;s dumb to drop leaders into stable companies because the inertia of the company is already headed toward an equillibrium of being a commodity asset, a piece of financial furniture in portfolios, and change agents (leaders) either have to derail that to succeed, or get frustrated and leave.<p>For a FAANG company to have OKRs below the manager level now seems misguided, as their growth phases are behind them, e.g. the majority of the change in their revenue growth is going to come from cost management and margins, and not from growing into new market share. Their best hope for market share growth is demographic change, as if you haven&#x27;t adopted their product by now, you&#x27;re probably not going to unless you were born recently and are just discovering the product, or you have just arrived and the products are part of your new life. Otherwise, I&#x27;m probably not going to become a new user&#x2F;market share of a FAANG product.<p>As an optimization phase company you can&#x27;t tell your engineering staff that the future is lean and that the company is now a zero-sum optimization problem, which their job is to beat out everyone else at doing the same or more with less. That&#x27;s a great and strategic place to make a P&amp;L mark as a manager, but a shitty place to be someone who builds and makes things. Your upside comes from outsourcing functions and services, integrating with tech debt, and other brain damaging tasks. An OKR in an optimization stage company is whether a function can survive being operated by cheap and the absolute minimally competent people. It&#x27;s mainly about cost reduction. Imo, OKRs in an optimization stage company are like skinny jeans on a middle aged man, where nobody wants to have to be the one to say it, but they&#x27;re past the stage where it&#x27;s appropriate.<p>OKRs make more sense in a startup or a growth stage company where there is a sense of shared mission and clear outward direction for growth, and where you&#x27;re betting on growing your way out of a lot of problems. Deliver a feature that positions us for this market share growth, make something someone wants, establish PMF, establish feature parity w&#x2F; competitors, improve conversions in the pipeline by x% - these are the things that leadership is designed to achieve. It&#x27;s high risk and leadership has terrible failure modes, but that&#x27;s an artifact of the company stage.<p>Long comment with intent to provoke discussion, but if your OKR is not concrete and a b&amp;w binary outcome, I&#x27;d ask whether you are in an org that is still in a growth phase, and whether this is what you want. Nothing wrong with being in an optimization phase company (e.g a bank) but not being aligned personally to the phase of your company is a recipe for suffering.
fh973将近 3 年前
OKRs are also a tool for communicating priorities and agendas in all directions of the hierarchy.<p>I think they work reasonably well for that. They&#x27;re succinct and the key results force them to be grounded on some reality that people can relate to.