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Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?

132 点作者 Gadiguibou将近 3 年前

38 条评论

timoth3y将近 3 年前
The answer to the question in the title is contained in the title.<p>For a number of reasons, we seem to have reached the point where hyperbolic, emotional statements get attention and calm, rational discussion is ignored.<p>A world where everyone is trying to position themselves as the persecuted, besieged voice of reason defending simple truth against irrational attractors, does not leave much room for common ground.<p>It&#x27;s interesting to note that the author does seem to have had anyone accuse him of being &quot;traitorous&quot; for trying to understand. He just asserts this strawman to paint those who might disagree as unreasonable and then bemoans his asserted lack of common ground.<p>I wish I could say this is an online phenomenon, and it&#x27;s obviously much worse online, but it clearly has leaked into the offline world.
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dvt将近 3 年前
Almost every serious non-partisan legal scholar agrees that Roe v. Wade is on tenuous legal footing. It&#x27;s purely a logical argument, and it doesn&#x27;t follow very well from the Constitution. We have a very simple mechanism to rectify this: amend the Constitution. But that ship has long sailed, and the problem now is <i>stare decisis</i>†, which complicates things further. So there&#x27;s a very real justification for keeping Roe in spite of its shortcomings. But that&#x27;s neither here nor there.<p>The issue isn&#x27;t that people don&#x27;t understand arguments, it&#x27;s that they misrepresent them. A rational, reasoned, mature, back-and-forth debate on abortion won&#x27;t get you views and clicks, so of course no one does it. <i>Panem et circenses.</i><p>† And of course Casey, which reaffirmed Roe.
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dj_mc_merlin将近 3 年前
I do not know what I expected when I clicked on the comments section. I think the author makes some really good points about human psychology &amp; game theory, and the fact that people are immediately riled up by his statements only serves to prove him right.<p>You can only understand people when you&#x27;re clear-headed, i.e. your &quot;rational you&quot; is the one in control. With these issues, people have either natural or nurtured emotional ties. To such an extent that the topic itself shuts of their rationality, and they revert back to blanket statements (&quot;I can&#x27;t argue with you because you believe X&quot;, or just plain profanities). Mix this in with tribality, and you&#x27;ve got a good recipe for no ability to reconcile two different opinions.<p>There&#x27;s also the fact that people generally don&#x27;t want to reconcile. When it comes to charged topics, it is a bare-faced lie to want reconciliation. What each side wants is the other side to relent. I think the term &quot;culture war&quot; is actually pretty accurate, there&#x27;s no interchange of ideas. It&#x27;s just seeing who can shout the other into submission.
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whatshisface将近 3 年前
&gt;<i>The Constitution doesn’t mention abortion. But what about privacy? Well, it doesn’t mention privacy either.</i><p>That&#x27;s not true - the 4th amendment protects against unreasonable <i>search</i> and seizure. The search part prevents the police from reading your mail or wiretapping your phones without a warrant (which declares the search reasonable), except illegally.
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mikece将近 3 年前
This blog post touches on a topic with far-reaching consequences that I think a lot of people are missing because they are focusing only on the question of abortion, and that is PRIVACY. In a nutshell, Roe makes abortion legal by guaranteeing the <i>privacy</i> of a woman to make that decision with her doctor. If Roe is overturned then it&#x27;s this assumption of privacy which will have been vacated... and once it is I suspect there will be policy and legislation to exploit the court&#x27;s striking down of privacy in a way that will be more Orwellian than we can currently imagine.
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ouid将近 3 年前
Morality and law both work like mathematics. This means that my beliefs are constructed, and once I have a construction, the only in bounds way to convince me to change my mind about them is to show me that my beliefs are inconsistent. Moreover, understanding someone who has already demonstrated an inconsistent belief system is easy. They believe X because they believe something and its negation, and at least one of those implies X. Trying to unravel exactly how they have managed to go from an inconsistency to whatever thing they want to believe isn&#x27;t really that interesting or important. The point is that their entire moral philosophy is broken and is exclusively used to justify whatever they want. This is why you have things like the prosperity doctrine.
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PaulDavisThe1st将近 3 年前
&gt; Given this disagreement, it’s not entirely obvious to me that we should resolve it through the Supreme Court rather than having people debate with each other and vote for legislators who will pass laws that reflect their views.<p>This misunderstands the role of a Constitution. One of the central points of a Constitution is to mark certain things off-limits to democracy. People cannot debate with each other and vote for legislators who will pass laws <i>that are forbidden by the constitution</i>. It doesn&#x27;t matter how many of them want to, or how solid the argument is. The Constitution says &quot;nope, don&#x27;t care, you cannot do that&quot;.<p>Even if every single voter in a state wanted to prevent anyone from ever saying &quot;Turtles Suck!&quot;, the state cannot pass such a law. Even if there is vigorous disagreement over whether or not people should be allowed to say &quot;Turtles Suck!&quot;, the Constitution says &quot;don&#x27;t care. You cannot pass a law prohibiting this.&quot;<p>So in the case discussed at the top of the article, the core question is whether the Constitution allows states to pass laws that ban abortion.<p>Roe said that the Constitution does not allow them to do so, because &lt;reasons&gt; (not meant sarcastically, just not worth enumerating them here).<p>As long as the Constitution is understood in that way, it makes no difference how much debate and disagreement there is about such laws: the Constitution says &quot;you cannot pass laws that function in this way.&quot;<p>Now, of course, currently SCOTUS appears to be ready to present a different understanding of the Constitution in which it does not prevent states from passing laws that ban abortion (or otherwise restrict it). That makes no difference to the central point: if the Constitution is understood to prevent legislation that restricts behavior, the level of disagreement in society about that behavior is of no legal consequence.
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ranger207将近 3 年前
There&#x27;s a bunch of people saying that it isn&#x27;t traitorous to understand your opponent, but boy do people make you feel like it is. People like their strawmen because it reinforces the collective groupthink of their tribe, and anything that possibly humanizes the opponent also weakens the argument that your side is objectively correct. If you&#x27;re interested in finding the truth then understanding your opponent is a critical step in finding the truth, but if you&#x27;re interested in belonging to your tribe then understanding your opponent is anathema. Don&#x27;t forget, you are not immune to propaganda, and you are not immune to tribalism, even if you know that you are not immune to either.<p>My solution to fostering cooperation is to switch to a voting system other than first past the post, so that political parties can be elected that are too small to have a majority on their own and must cooperate to govern, but that&#x27;s just my opinion and I&#x27;m not sure it&#x27;ll work at this point
blueberrychpstx将近 3 年前
Titles like this irk me.<p>It clearly isn’t<p>It should be something more like: “how has general discourse become so polluted and toxified in its perceptions for it to appear that the following statement yields any factuality” …<p>I guess that doesn’t quite have the same ring to it though.
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MockObject将近 3 年前
It is frustrating. I am on one side of the abortion debate, but I understand the other side, yet I have no success in even explaining it to my side.
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xg15将近 3 年前
&gt; <i>There’s a certain phenomenon I often wonder about, one that only seems to occur with culture war topics.</i><p>I mean, the term &quot;culture war&quot; itself is part of the &quot;conservative&quot; vocabulary in that issue. So I can see why the whole thing is not easy.
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mikewarot将近 3 年前
Wedge issues tend to elicit emotional replies. The algorithms that are used to maximize profit tend toward showing the most emotional replies first. This positive feedback loop rapidly leads to a bifurcation of the audience into opposing camps, while drowning out more rational discourse.<p>That&#x27;s why.
lamontcg将近 3 年前
The title article and all of the responses here don&#x27;t capture the argument that if abortion is illegal that means that it still happens, but young women will die (and the poor young women who can&#x27;t be quietly flown to another jurisdiction where it is legal).<p>And I think the bigger problem is that we allow people to have nonsense opinions in polite society. The idea that human life begins at conception and that undifferentiated cells are human life worth more than the life of the mother is just garbage. That isn&#x27;t really defensible. And that isn&#x27;t my problem and I&#x27;m not going to be particularly apologetic about it and I don&#x27;t need to see eye to eye with anyone else. They constructed this ridiculous argument that I can never in a million years agree with and so I won&#x27;t. I literally can&#x27;t compromise with that position, and it is a position that I would argue is crafted deliberately to avoid compromise. Ain&#x27;t my problem. And if you&#x27;re going to argue that it should be my problem and that I don&#x27;t get how we need civility and tolerance I think you&#x27;re the bigger problem.<p>Keep punching the wrong direction though.<p>And where&#x27;s the outrage over the anti-abortion activists painting their opposition as supporting abortion uncritically into the third trimester? There&#x27;s nobody reasonable out there who believes that. Yet you&#x27;ll find people who find abortion troubling and want it done quickly and can&#x27;t agree with it being in the third trimester except to save the life of the mother who consider themselves to be against abortion. They&#x27;re actually pro-abortion&#x2F;pro-choice because that&#x27;s the way everyone thinks. Make it quick and easy and get it done in the first trimester ASAP (and use contraception so ideally it never gets there and stop using the rhythm method or pulling out because that&#x27;s how you wind up needing abortions, and use the morning after pill in the case of contraceptive failure or rape). Most pro-abortion&#x2F;choice people already ARE at the compromise point between the two extreme endpoints of the possible debate.
andrewclunn将近 3 年前
People don&#x27;t want to understand. Earnestly listening means you might change your mind. There is nothing to be gained &quot;strategically&quot; by listening. Claiming to want open discourse and free discussion is a tactic promoted by those who would lose any popular poll or vote. Further, most people don&#x27;t hold their opinions because they&#x27;ve thought things through. They are told &quot;good people believe A,&quot; and they want to be seen as (and think of them self as) a good person, so they espouse A.<p>It&#x27;s one thing to wish people were more rational and less tribal. But to really not understand human nature after the last decade? The author is either naive beyond absurdity or feigning ignorance as a different form of virtue signaling.
hans1729将近 3 年前
Something can&#x27;t be traitorous with respect to the intellectual discourse of a given topic, but to a <i>group</i>.<p>Group consensus is not about intellectual correctness, obviously. Groups are about evolution, as is belonging to them and seeking just that. We collectively subscribe to them because that&#x27;s the emerged mechanism by which we modulate decision making where the direct representation of individual takes is not feasible. Individual takes matter not when the subject at hand isn&#x27;t actually about the subject, but about winning at life.
burlesona将近 3 年前
&gt; When we get so excited about culture war, maybe policy is irrelevant and we’re really just talking about what team we’re on. When you and I talk about how stupid and evil and bad the other side is, we’re demonstrating that we’ve burned our bridges and we’re totally committed to our current tribe.<p>As a person with close friends and family members on opposite sides of the culture war, this is the explanation that resonates most to me.
throwaway894345将近 3 年前
&gt; Is this a ridiculous opinion? I don’t think so. But I can see why someone might disagree with it. For one, what’s the “privacy” thing?<p>Maybe I misunderstand the court&#x27;s rationale, but it seems really flimsy to hang abortion on &quot;privacy&quot; in this way.<p>&gt; We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man&#x27;s knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.<p>Whatever your thoughts on abortion, this seems poorly reasoned. Legalizing abortion implies asserting that life begins after some date. If first trimester abortions are legal, then it seems to imply that the law views human life (and thus human rights) as beginning sometime after the first trimester.
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everyone将近 3 年前
Instinctual human behaviour. We&#x27;re programmed to divide into groups of us or them. Being part of a group leads to benefits from that group, but, freeloaders could just profess loyalty, get the benefits and move on. So we have an instinct to fight freeloaders by having genuine members of the group make a difficult to fake concession or sacrifice of some kind. Which could be something like genital mutilation, or, maintaining a clearly irrational belief at all times for your entire life, or, at all times treating the others like inhuman scum and having 0 tolerance for any of their ideas, or usually, a combination of such things.
ZeroGravitas将近 3 年前
Is it the understanding or the bringing it up at inappropriate times that gets the pushback?<p>If it&#x27;s the latter then it&#x27;s probably just some missing social skills. At least that&#x27;s my take speaking from personal experience.
asdffdsa将近 3 年前
The logical construction of this piece is poorly formulated.<p>The title is “why does x happen”.<p>The content is:<p>I believe foo. Evidence behind why author believes foo.<p>Here is an arbitrary list of 6 behavioral responses to foo: [a b c d e x]. X happens which is a bad thing.<p>There is no critical analysis or evidence substantiating the 6 responses, nor how&#x2F;why response x happens. In other words, there’s no intellectual rigor behind the title’s claim, nor do I have any inclination to believe the author’s claim as true after reading it.
endisneigh将近 3 年前
All these problems because people can’t be explicit and exhaustive. Amend the constitution for example if that’s what you mean, clarify, etc.
AdamH12113将近 3 年前
(Context: The article uses abortion as its central -- and only -- example.)<p>&gt;Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?<p>It&#x27;s not. Many people[1] spend a great deal of time studying the rhetoric and activities of people who oppose abortion. They have studied them far more than you.<p>&gt;For better or for worse, the vast majority of people I know favor Roe v. Wade. Still, I think I understand the view of people on the other side.<p>You give two possible reasons for opposing Roe v. Wade, one of which rejects the legal argument as fundamentally arbitrary, and one of which is based on the idea that a human life, with all the rights and dignities that it is entitled to, begins at conception.<p>This falls into a common trap, which is treating &quot;culture war&quot; disputes as being fundamentally about abstract philosophical debates. This ignores the important parts of the dispute, which concern women&#x27;s sexuality and the role of (conservative, patriarchal) religion in public affairs. It also ignores the mountains of bad faith and hypocrisy in the anti-abortion movement, including but not limited to a lack of interest in &quot;saving&quot; IVF embryos, bizarre ignorance of the female reproductive system, a refusal to acknowledge the circumstances under which people have late-term abortions, active opposition to medically-accurate sex education and easier access to contraceptives, and a lack of concern for what happens to babies after they&#x27;re born.<p>&gt;As far as I can tell, my object-level views on “when abortion should be legal” are close to the median in my (leftist-dominated) corner of the universe. Yet, except with close friends, I’d be scared to say what I think above.<p>Scared of what, exactly? When you publicly make bad arguments, you should expect public criticism.<p>The only reason I can see that someone would get mad at you is that you are treating abortion rights as a bloodless, impersonal affair. This is a very practical issue with very real, very serious consequences for the women involved. Most women do not <i>want</i> to engage in an abstract debate about whether they should be forced to carry a dead fetus to term[2].<p>If you want to discuss how all this relates to jurisprudence and philosophy, you can certainly do that. It&#x27;s not wrong, and you&#x27;re not wrong for wanting to ask questions and start discussions on those subjects. But it&#x27;s important to be clear that such discussions are (almost) totally separate from the <i>practical</i> questions of how overturning Roe v. Wade will actually affect American women. Conflating the two buries the practical questions, and only benefits people who would prefer that the practical questions are ignored.<p>[1] The Slacktivist blog is a good place to start. Search for articles about abortion. Those articles will have many links to other people examining anti-abortion views. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.patheos.com&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;slacktivist&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.patheos.com&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;slacktivist&#x2F;</a><p>[2] Not hyperbole.
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mikece将近 3 年前
&quot;Seek first to understand, then to be understood.&quot; -- habit #5 of the 7 habits of highly successful people
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danschumann将近 3 年前
Why does no one listen to the person who rejects the false&#x2F;artificial dichotomy?
mcguire将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m afraid I find this argument to be specious.<p>Sure, Roe v. Wade might or might not be a great legal decision. However, if it is not, why are conservative state governments racing to introduce new laws to ban abortion, punish anyone who helps someone have an abortion, and ban forms of contraception. Further, why is no one discussing other, similar decisions? Sure, Griswold is part and parcel the argument over Roe v. Wade, and Loving is verboten while Clarence Thomas is on the court, but there have been many other decisions based on the &quot;specious&quot; right to privacy. Why are none of them being picked apart with the same sharp instruments as Roe?<p>The answer is that &quot;it&#x27;s a poor constitutional decision&quot; is a red herring. &quot;When does life begin&quot; is even irrelevant. If you want to understand the people you disagree with (and, yes, I think that is a very good idea), and you disagree with American conservatives, you need to understand that they do not like the way society has changed since 1960---some much further back than that---and many are willing to do or say anything in order to roll back those changes. (And yes, I mean that. The American left has a lot of idiocy, but the vast majority of bad faith arguments, including that Christianity and conservatism are oppressed minorities, come from the right. (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cato.org&#x2F;sites&#x2F;cato.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;2020-07&#x2F;Good_Faith-vs-Bad_Faith-Arguments_or_Discussions.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cato.org&#x2F;sites&#x2F;cato.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;2020-07&#x2F;Good_Faith...</a>))<p>While you&#x27;re discussing the legal niceties of Roe v. Wade, keep in mind that it, abortion, and sexuality in general are just the edge of the wedge; there are many other policies on the list that even you might be attached to.
dqpb将近 3 年前
&gt; Why is it traitorous to understand the people you disagree with?<p>It’s not.<p>&gt; Somehow, it feels like a huge social blunder to even demonstrate that I understand their positions.<p>The author then constructs six models to explain his emotions to himself.
mattwilsonn888将近 3 年前
It would only be traitorous to understand the people you disagree with if your current mental framework is so fragile and irrational as to be consistently dismantled by your opposition&#x27;s arguments.
EddieDante将近 3 年前
If you understand the people you disagree with, you might find yourself changing your mind and agreeing with them, if only on one or two points. This is how I went from being a half-assed Randroid to a half-assed libertarian socialist. I wasn&#x27;t willing to take Ayn Rand&#x27;s word about socialism and anarchism as gospel -- or that of her anointed prophet Leonard Peikoff.<p>As for Roe v. Wade, I think the problem with reading the 14th Amendment as protecting a right to privacy is that the 14th isn&#x27;t enough. We should be invoking the 9th Amendment as well, which explicitly covers <i>unenumerated rights</i>.<p>&gt; The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.<p>This amendment exists specifically to counter the sort of mindset that thinks that rights come from God or the government, and that the Constitution wasn&#x27;t written to <i>enumerate</i> and thus <i>limit</i> the powers of the Federal government.
koboll将近 3 年前
&gt; So, here’s a timeline: The 14th amendment was passed in 1868. For 135 years, it was perfectly consistent with that amendment for states to put people in jail for having the wrong kind of sex. Then, one day, it wasn’t anymore.<p>This is wrong. When precedent is overturned, it&#x27;s because the law struck down was <i>never</i> consistent with the amendment(s) at issue.<p>Segregation was not perfectly consistent with the 14th Amendment prior to Brown v. Board, it was <i>never</i> consistent with it, from the time of its passage. The court upheld it in Plessy v. Ferguson not because it was okay then and the &#x27;living document&#x27; subsequently changed and it became not-okay, but because the court made a glaringly wrong decision in Plessy v. Ferguson.
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pazimzadeh将近 3 年前
Something something it was Ender Wiggin&#x27;s empathy&#x2F;love&#x2F;understanding of the buggers which enabled him to defeat them
rat87将近 3 年前
&gt; The question before the court in Roe v. Wade was not “Would the world be better if abortion were legal?” The question was, “Does the US Constitution prohibit states from making abortion illegal?”<p>This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem that gives way to much credit to the court. The question isn&#x27;t about legality or the constitution it&#x27;s about politics and power. The conservative legal movement has spent decades working to take away the right of women to choose. They&#x27;ve been explicit about this. McConnell stacked the court by refusing to even hear from Garland then jamming in Barrett at the last moment. The reason Roe vs Wade is being overturned isn&#x27;t because it is flawed but because they finally got not just a conservative majority but an extremely conservative supreme court majority<p>A lot of people claimed they didn&#x27;t really mean it when they said they wanted to ban abortion and that they were just taking advantage of socially conservatives for the votes but when the politicians&#x2F;judge politicans are themselves socially conservative why would you think they don&#x27;t believe in it? And now we have the unsurprising result.<p>I wish we wouldn&#x27;t dress it up in irrelevant theoretical conversations about what the constitution says
anovikov将近 3 年前
I&#x27;d love the same approach to be tried on Russians who support invasion of Ukraine.
mro_name将近 3 年前
because humans are herd animals and mere repetition makes acceptance.<p>If you understand, you don&#x27;t oppose as fierce as you are obliged to as a good herd member. You may vent the wrong tunes.
hintymad将近 3 年前
I was curious if people will get even madder if the US passes a law to enforce maximum number of weeks post-fertilization. There are only fewer than 10(?) countries, after all, that do not have such time limit. Most of the European countries do.
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LordDragonfang将近 3 年前
This question and questions adjacent to it get explored a lot more thoroughly in many of Scott Alexander&#x27;s essays&#x2F;blog posts, particularly in the (from 2014, but still mostly relevant) &quot;I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;09&#x2F;30&#x2F;i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;09&#x2F;30&#x2F;i-can-tolerate-anythin...</a>
jdlyga将近 3 年前
It&#x27;s easy to rationalize bad things if you spend too much effort trying to understand them. After all, even Hitler thought he was doing good for the world. Yes we all need to understand each other, to a point. Beyond that point, you need to fight for what&#x27;s right.
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onetothree将近 3 年前
A little testimony to how the society is doing is the fact that, I actually genuinely expected the article to try to make the case for the title, before I continued reading. :D
daenz将近 3 年前
There&#x27;s another tactic that you could list under the &quot;strategic model&quot; so that it becomes like the &quot;outlier model&quot;: misrepresent how many people actually hold the opposing view. For example, with abortion, by the way it&#x27;s presented on social media, you would think it&#x27;s a men vs women topic. But as recently as 2019[0], of pro-lifers, women were the majority. And pro-lifers are nearly half of the population.<p>But if you were to gauge the sizes of the groups based on MSM and social media, you would think pro-lifers were much smaller of a group, and dominated by men. This is a strategy to convert the other side into the &quot;outlier model&quot; so that it is justified to not make any attempt to hear them. This strategy appears to be super effective... of amplifying some causes and downplaying other causes, so much so, that it should have its own category in the models section.<p>0. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.gallup.com&#x2F;poll&#x2F;244709&#x2F;pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.gallup.com&#x2F;poll&#x2F;244709&#x2F;pro-choice-pro-life-2018...</a>
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