Profanity Doesn't Work

You're sitting in a meeting to talk about strategy next quarter. Ideas are flying. People are talking over each other. Every so often someone scrawls something on a whiteboard. Then they start talking about dates and "quick wins." Estimates get thrown out, which inspires another furious rush of discussion.<p>You keep trying to interject. You lost two engineers a month ago. Another one has put in his notice. You hired a bright kid a week ago, but he's going to need time to ramp up. You keep trying to say that hiring needs to be the focus of any new strategy, because nothing's getting done if you don't have the engineers to do it. You keep trying to raise this point and get the group to talk about how you can redouble your recruiting efforts, but everybody wants to talk about "establishing social media channels" and "improving our performance marketing network."<p>So finally, you sigh, and raising your voices a couple notches, you say:<p>"There is no way we're doing to do ANY OF THIS SHIT with our current staff."<p>The room quiets down. All heads turn to you.<p>Then the CEO says, "All right, let's talk about recruiting."

What always amuses me is the tendency of some people to "censor" out profanity (f<i></i>* vs fuck and s<i></i>* vs shit), as if by not actually typing the word, the writer could write about profanity and yet not be "sullied" by it, or something to that effect.<p>Seriously, loosen up. This almost puritanical aversion to profanity is unhealthy.

I disagree with the article. Swearing is highly effective but only if rarely used. The article's author hints at innuendo, euphemisms, dysphemisms and doublespeak as alternatives to swearing. I am a firm believer and follower of concise eloquence so avoiding calling a spade a spade is akin to heresy. Come out and say it, don't avoid words when they perfectly describe something.<p>Think of swearing as an alternative to hitting someone. Sometimes you really want to hit someone and there may be a good reason for it but violence is never appropriate. Swearing in such a contexts is how humans don't continuously tear each other apart. They should be a tool of last resort to express our most powerful emotions.<p>Expletives are the most powerful words in every language, but they only retain their power when used infrequently and in contexts that demand them.

"The difference between the almost right word &#38; the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning." - Mark Twain<p>There are occasions where only the word <i>fuck</i> will do.<p>They're less common than what the habitually profane might guess (and I regrettably count myself among that group).<p>Still – there is a talent to swearing. Part of it is delivery. Part of it is timing. But the most crucial part is knowing when – and when not – to use a particular tool for a particular instance. The people who write the Onion's headlines have this air-tight.

I think he's correct in his assumption that it's only really in America that people are offended by swear words on a slide. I'm in Europe and no one I know would blink twice to see that - although I'd defo leave it out in a sales pitch!<p>I personally thought the unnecessary swearing was quite amusing. It's nice to see someone not taking themselves too seriously (for a change). Also reminded me of Ted Dzuiba - anyone know what happened to him? His articles on theregister were highly amusing.. Almost as funny as the comments where people just bemoaning the swearing. That was hilarious.<p>Also reminded me of this, which was on HN a while back: <a href="http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-commit-messages-per-programming-language/" rel="nofollow">http://andrewvos.com/2011/02/21/amount-of-profanity-in-git-c...</a>

It is a poor man who relies upon swearing to have an impact upon his readers or listeners. I view it similar to "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."<p>Swearing may get the attention of people though it seems like a quick fix that won't last. You know what else gets people's attention? Slapping them. :P What is more lasting is effective teaching skills and telling stories well and to do these well it requires practice and study. Instead of swearing try asking a good question that will get them thinking and again, good questions usually take preparation and it's not 'bad' to <i>prepare</i> questions as some people seem to think all good questions must be thought up on the spot.<p>The author mentions that it's more likely that Americans (Or rather, native English speakers) find the words more 'offensive' than other countries and I've noticed this too in a few Asian countries. For example, when I was in the Philippines and we'd be talking to kids/teenagers and some would outright swear (Sometimes at you) though were ignorant of it's true meaning/effect and simply had heard it on movies/TV shows and the internet.

The word "shit" is not profane, just coarse. And vulgarity has it's honored place in the lexicon. In fact, I'd say that "shit work" is an excellent term to use when describing unpleasant, meaningless activity.

I'm not sure what industry Scott actually works in? I can look at our code-base here at work, and there are plenty of swear words through out. The classic foobar as an extension on fubar, as in fucked up beyond all recognition.<p>Then there was that article a few years ago (which I can't even remember the actual argument, but I think it was about censorship) that the linux kernel source code would be black listed because it had 7000+ counts of the word fuck in it.<p>Swearing almost goes with the territory of being a programmer.. Oh wait, we're not supposed to call our selves programmers any more. Colour me confused! Ok, so I add value to my organisation, I remove obstacles, and if I happen to swear while doing it, oh well!

As a non-American, seeing people get upset about a bit of colourful language is quite amusing.

The poster is right. Next up, I'm expecting another whiny thread about why all these t-shirt wearing "fuck that shit" guys aren't paid or treated like doctors, lawyers or architects.<p>These are _public_ presentations. Act professional. There are almost no other professions where it would be considered de rigueur to pepper your <i>professional</i> presentations with profanity, or, for that matter, porn.<p>You want to swear in your office, or in your source base (not in the public-facing API stuff), go ahead. But if you want to swear in your public persona as a professional, don't expect to be treated like that much of a professional.

I agree with Jerry Seinfeld that swearing (when writing or speaking) is not so much offensive but just a lazy way to grab people's attention. A good speaker can hold attention without resorting to swearing.<p>That said, I actually think that the phrase "shit work" perfectly expresses the point, and I'm not sure I would have called it anything else if I were the author.

This is a little prissy. I'm far more offended by a poorly-edited tl;dr blog post than the occasional f-bomb. Both can show disrespect for the reader; there's an art to it.

What makes swearing any more offensive than say, not wearing a tie at some conference? Is there anything inherent in the tie and words or is there a cultural attachment to these things that raises emotions?<p>So then, do we always cater to the current cultural trends, or do we pave our own ways in some way? Some times we're not always looking to please, attempts to be polite can lead to concealment of details that matter. So sometimes it's worth not being polite, and politeness, too, is in the eye of the beholder.<p>Offensive is largely still a subjective matter, you have to decide how much you value this subjectivity.<p>Some people get offended and start throwing shit at the wall, and some people don't give a fuck.

Know your target audience. Sometimes it's appropriate to take an tone with the audience to get a point across or make that impact. A blog has a pretty wide audience.<p>My opposition nature now wants to start a conference with swearing as a central theme.

The amount of swearing that is tolerated is a function of geography. To the rest of the world, Americans are a bit prissy.<p>I'm from Norway. To me a typical American's reaction to swearing is more offensive than the swearing itself. It offends me because because there being "forbidden words" is indeed a terribly childish notion.<p>In fact, if you are from Norway, it takes a bit of time getting used to the childish reaction most Americans will have even to relatively mild expletives.<p>(And I am not even from the north of Norway where swearing is more or less a byproduct of how the respiratory system works).<p>It is just language. Grow up.

Profanity has a purpose. It expresses strong dissatisfaction, quite eloquently in my opinion. The article was called "Don't Give Your Users Shit Work", and maybe ZH could have gotten the point across by saying "Don't Burden Your Users With Unnecessary Tedium". But seriously, "shit work" more accurately conveys the soul-crushing awfulness of it all. Listening to this author's ideas on what constitutes appropriate (who asked him anyway?) is unnecessarily handicapping one's ability to communicate.

Society works on a handshake; there is no ultimate moral arbiter. So when the vast majority agree that certain words are no longer offensive, then it's OK to use them without concern. However, as long as that isn't the case (and it certainly is not the case in general in most societies at this time) you have to consider more than just your own personal views on profanity. If you are offending a portion of your audience, then it's fair to say that you're being disrespectful to hat portion of the audience. Most people I know use profanity (sparingly) with their peers (age-wise), very rarely with their parents, and almost never with their grandparents or young children. I think that reflects a knowledge of their audience and a respect for varying levels of tolerance to profanity. I find it troubling when I encounter people that lack that level of respect for others, and shameful when I'm guilty of it myself. Broadcasting something on a very public medium like the internet means you can't possibly predict your audience and therefore can't really determine whether profanity will be offensive or not. So why not refrain.

Though I don't get behind him 100 percent, the man does have a bit of a point--especially for younger founders in a startup's initial phases. If you want the job and the respect that comes with it, act the part. Obviously the rub here lies in the speaker's ability to deliver the desired effect. But sometimes dropping an f-bomb, especially in a presentation, makes it seem like you're just trying too hard.

In my experience, attitudes to swearing are a remarkably effective heuristic. If someone takes offence at my use of language, they're almost certainly going to take offence at the thoughts and feelings I use that language to communicate.<p>People fuck and shit and piss. Those words represent the most essential parts of our nature, the most basic acts of a living animal. Use them wisely, use them to enrich communication, but don't deny them, don't try and remove them from the language. Profanity does work, precisely because it offends you, precisely because it's a shock to the system. The world is too vital and visceral for us to constrain the words we use to describe it.<p>The world might be full of witty, creative people who hate swearing, but I certainly haven't met any. In my experience, people who dislike swearing are prissy, small-minded bigots. They're the sort of people that call modern art ugly, the sort of people who seek to constrain the private lives of adults "for the sake of the children". Frankly, they can fuck off - I've no time for any of them.

Profanity is like yelling, where one is (in)appropriate so is the other.<p>Hence I never read articles that start with profanity - people who start shouting before they can explain themselves are rarely worth listening.

I did 5 years in the Navy, so I have to try really hard NOT to swear occasionally. I generally don't have a problem around children or my great grandma, but when I'm giving a talk it's pretty hard not to.<p>I don't put swear words in my slides, though.

This is totally a matter of culture.<p>My father worked for a (US) national company that actually required etiquette training for their representatives from the northeast, because they were so much more prone to swearing in casual conversation, that it would cause others to be drawn aback and brought out of the conversation. Not to mention when you get to international differences. My australian exchange student in high school would drop 'fuck' as though it was his middle name.<p>But regardless, I thought one of the biggest points of hacker news was the ability to grok out meaning of news and opinions, and not debate the effectiveness of its communication.

Words become less powerful over time, it was't that long ago "hell" and "damn" were considered to be highly offensive, inevitably the swear words of our time will become the the emphasis words of the future.<p>I've always held the opinion that being offended by swearing is a sign of weakness. If a single syllable can make you angry or uncomfortable(when used in a context not specifically designed to insult you) then the problem is yours alone. Given that a negative feeling towards swearing is a purely conditioned response your energies would be better spent on learning to not be offended than attempt to censor everyone else.<p>I also find offence at swearing to be somewhat culturally specific. It seems to be much more of a concern in America than it is in other english speaking countries as it appears to be a much more conservative society generally.<p>Concern over swearing is a rather old fashioned ideal. In these modern times where we are no longer obligated to follow the crazy arbitrary rules of conduct required religion and tradition and are only required to conduct ourselves within the rule of law there is no need to bother with outdated social conventions. Every person has to make their own decisions about their personal conduct so it should not be assumed that everyone shares your own "calibration" of acceptable speech so only the intent of the speaker should be of concern not the particular words used.<p>So get over it, in 30 years "fuck" and "shit" will be the "hell" and "damn" of their time so why worry about it? Language changes over time, it always has and will so look forward not back.

WTF? Really? Are we going to comment on "is swearing right or wrong", now? It's a personal choice and that's Holman's way of doing things. That's part of his persona.<p>I, personally, would never read holman if it wasn't for swearing. People swear, they build professions over it. If you don't like it, don't do it. Get over it.<p>PS: More examples of people who sear when working - <a href="http://ittybiz.com" rel="nofollow">http://ittybiz.com</a> , Garry Vaynerchuck, me.

I'm reminded of <a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/" rel="nofollow">http://lesswrong.com/lw/13s/the_nature_of_offense/</a><p>"Specifically, to give offense is to imply that a person or group has or should have low status. Taking offense then becomes easy to explain: it’s to defend someone’s status from such an implication, out of a sense of either fairness or self-interest."

There are very few rules for effective comunication. There are often guidelines that are useful for the inexperienced or timid. A good speaker who knows his/her business can get away with nearly anything they can get away with...

The linked article "The Nine Parts of Speech and the F-word" is silly. Replacing "John went to the bakery" with "That f<i></i>* went to the bakery" does not a pronoun make, any more than "That person went to the bakery" makes "person" a pronoun. The reflexive pronoun examples are similarly weak. The third line under "Adverbs" has at least one error that makes it nonsensical. I stopped reading at that point, but I'm sure there is plenty more garbage in that article.

The author's previous post is titled "It's the transparency, stupid." How is that any better?<p>At least 'shit' here is an adjective, instead of a direct insult.

I don't necessarily disagree with the author's logic, but it would seem that the real world does: <a href="http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swearing.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.spring.org.uk/2010/10/the-persuasive-power-of-swe...</a><p>...at least that is assuming that "shit" has the same effect as "damn".

Personally, I don't use "fuck" on my company website, but I use it merrily on facebook and my personal blog. Looks like Zach used "shit" (OMG) on his personal blog, and Scott gets his knickers in a twist.<p>Can't help but notice that Scott works for Microsoft and Zach works for GitHub.<p>I don't think its a coincidence.

Though it can be effective, vulgarity on the web seems most often a product of laziness.<p>Which is not always a problem. Much content we read here is for information; many comments and blogs are little more than small talk.<p>We refer back to classic posts like P. Graham's because they were crafted with deliberation.

Profanity is popular in the tech community because it conveys that we don't give a fuck about offending people as we challenge existing norms. People are going to object to that; if they're not offended, we're not doing a good enough job.

I work at a young startup. Swear words are so common that they are only noticed when used maliciously.<p>I only seem to care when older people swear, which is odd. I never liked when my dad swore, but with my peers it feels natural.

I hope the guys who write the original article don't follow this guy's advice. I love people who don't give a shit what other people think, and don't have to watch what they say or do 24/7 in fear. That's freedom.

There are individuals who care more about fundamentally good ideas than about leveraging them for profit. We aren't sufficiently offended by profanity to consider it a net negative value in presentations.

At the very least, this post has given me the title of my forthcoming autobiography: Words that Are Evocative of Sex and Feces.

I found this amusing given this article's title. And yes, perhaps I'm being sophomoric here.<p>From the author's bio: "...I am a failed stand-up comic..." Perhaps these 2 things are related?

"Don't Give Your Readers Shit Words"

The frequency of swearing increases as you descend the ranks of society down to the lowest levels, down to the floor where you have drunken hobos sleeping in their own filth on the side of the road. Where profanity is the most common.<p>I support your right to use profanity, and I support my right to judge you poorly for it.<p>PROFANITY IS KIND OF LIKE USING ALL CAPS TO GET PEOPLE TO READ THIS POST. ALL CAPS IS A GREAT WAY TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS RIGHT!

Oh, shit.

Fuck that.

Oh my fucking God on a dildo. Really?<p>If we banned swearing at work it <i>would</i> be a lot quieter, I guess.

<i>However, you take no chances of offending by not swearing, but you guarantee to offend someone if you do.</i><p>Good. Fuck them. Believe me, we aren't going to get along. Best to know now. Also, I believe in evolution, think the earth is more than 4000 years old and I support gay marriage. That offends a ton of people and expressing that opinion has the same effect on those "relationships" as saying "fuck".<p>You might think you're being polite. You're not. As Bill Hicks would say, you're sucking on Satan's cock, ice ice baby.<p>And as a matter of economic reality, I've found that the better educated, and economically advantaged a person is, the more likely they are to use words that others have judged to be offensive. "Manners" are what the servants have.<p>Then there's an anecdotal inverse correlation between the likelihood that a person uses the word "fuck" and the likelihood that they support dropping cluster-bombs on civilian areas. That is people go all weak at the knees if I say "fuck", but those same people are all for shredding small children: just so long as they are "non-christians". (Yeah, I'm sure <i>you</i> don't do that Mr No-Potty-Words HN reader - its just a general observation).<p>Whatever.