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Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

299 点作者 myle将近 3 年前

12 条评论

mwt将近 3 年前
I see a lot of comments about the general topic, but none on the actual tool, which appears to have no (public-facing) updates in about three years. Presumably it could be a tool that incrementally improves over time with the explosion of data lichess has, but surely there would be a single commit since 2019. Do we know that this is what's actually running on lichess's backend today?
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dang将近 3 年前
Recent and related:<p><i>Lichess: The free and open source chess server</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=32045763" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=32045763</a> - July 2022 (65 comments)
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CSSer将近 3 年前
I’ve seen a video of Magnus Carlsen playing on Lichess before. Does Irwin ever accidentally flag him or people like him? Do these sorts of folks have to be verified in some fashion?
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than3将近 3 年前
Unless they&#x27;ve made significant improvements, this thing is borderline useless.<p>About all it does is act as a nice PR&#x2F;gimmick. Magic thinking.<p>When last I checked about 5 years ago, they were including client-based stats in the analysis (time per move, focus, and timing between clicks to pick a piece up and drop a piece).<p>The issue with doing that is the client is fungible, you can set any state you want locally; and so by manipulating these stats you could skew the input going into these models.<p>To give people a layman&#x27;s short overview of the model:<p>It uses a several CNN Pooling Layers for feature detection and LSTM (attention embeddings) in a siamese network architecture.<p>CNN models notoriously fail to detect features that that are larger than its kernel size.<p>The LSTM embeddings can only be as useful as the features that it is trying to detect.<p>There were a number of problems with the model at the time, a high false positive rate, overfitting, and too much weight was being given to client-controllable input.<p>When the client-controllable input was held stable (constant). Certain book openings would be skewed with additional weight towards a false positive, and earlier book moves activated more often than lesser seen positions.<p>I brought the issues up to ornicar years ago in an issue, but they closed the issue without comment. The posts are mostly gone now.<p>There were a number of disagreements (mostly about certain people with admin privileges abusing their authority, not sure if it was ornicar or one of their flunkies; either way not important just completely unprofessional).<p>I guess it was good enough for them despite the high false positive rate (driving account churn).
jka将近 3 年前
Related to this, there&#x27;s a really good talk by the founder of lichess that includes an overview of the cheating problem, and the techniques they use to detect and manage it.<p>The relevant section of the video on YouTube is: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=LZgyVadkgmI&amp;t=1080s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=LZgyVadkgmI&amp;t=1080s</a>
hooloovoo_zoo将近 3 年前
If the system suspects a cheater, maybe it can just match them up against a GM (or beyond GM) bot to confirm?
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ricardobayes将近 3 年前
This is really cool. Rampant cheating is the reason I completely abandoned playing chess, so nice to see something happening.
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wolverine876将近 3 年前
Now we have a computer effectively accusing people of fraud (if I understand correctly). How does Irwin address the obvious risks and dangers?
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CrankyBear将近 3 年前
I love chess. At my absolute best, I had a over-the-board USCF rating of 2156. I never made it to master no matter how hard I tried. So, ticked off, I gave up serious play. Years go by and while I&#x27;m no where near as good these days, I started enjoying playing again. And, then I start running into people online who were clearly using engines instead of their own skills and wits. Now, I only pay with friends and over-the-board. If this can help wipe out the cheats, I may finally go back to playing online again.
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JohnJamesRambo将近 3 年前
I don’t understand what someone gets out of winning chess games by cheating. It would actually make me feel worse about myself.
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xyyzy将近 3 年前
how can you cheat on chess?
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Lapsa将近 3 年前
just hire Kamsky