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Why wasn't the steam engine invented earlier? Part II

207 点作者 harscoat将近 3 年前

29 条评论

legitster将近 3 年前
Environmental collapse and the price of steel!<p>I think people forget just how expensive metal was. Carpenters would lock up their saws because the blades were so precious. People knew how to make cheaper steel from coal for a long time, but it was regarded as an inferior product and avoided.<p>However, charcoal is labor intensive stuff to collect. By the 1700s, some cities in Europe had so depleted their available forests that they were forced to turn to inferior coal fired steel.<p>But after a few <i>decades</i> of being forced to produce crappy steel, they figured out ways to make it better. In the end, you had steel that was <i>drastically</i> cheaper than before. Cheap enough to build boilers.<p>I think people make the mistake of thinking the steam engine kicked off the industrial revolution. But I believe the spark was cheap metal. And they never would have had to switch to cheap metal if they hadn&#x27;t completely depleted their environment.
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helsinkiandrew将近 3 年前
There&#x27;s a big gap between &#x27;inventing&#x27; a steam engine as a diagram in a book or table top novelty and physically creating one that can do more work than a horse or two, can work continuously, and is safe to use.<p>The technical advances of Newcomen and Watt also coincided with the ability to create boilers and pressure chambers that didn&#x27;t explode (too often).
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zcw100将近 3 年前
This question reminded me of a show that I used to love watching, Connections with James Burke. I&#x27;m sure there are aspects that it is missing but it&#x27;s a very well told story of what needed to come together for the invention of the steam engine.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymotion.com&#x2F;video&#x2F;x68mfbf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymotion.com&#x2F;video&#x2F;x68mfbf</a>
a_bonobo将近 3 年前
Just 4 days ago Nature Genetics had a really cool perspective on why nobody else did the experiments on inheritance Gregor Mendel did: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s41588-022-01109-9" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s41588-022-01109-9</a>
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terhechte将近 3 年前
The Greek philosoper Hero of Alexandria actually invented something close to a steam engine in the 1st century BE [1]. Whenever I think about &quot;obvious&quot; inventions which happened quite late in our civilization, I remember &quot;The road not taken&quot;, a fantastic short story that plays with this idea. [2]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Aeolipile" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Aeolipile</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_stor...</a>
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lambda_matt将近 3 年前
There is an absolutely fantastic book by Simon Winchester called The Perfectionists. He has a chapter on the steam engine-- the long and the short of it was it couldn&#x27;t exist until they could precisely machine the bore and piston to adequate tolerances produce enough power without accidentally producing a bomb
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cletus将近 3 年前
I looked in Part 1 and 2 and didn&#x27;t see this point raised, which is a shame because it&#x27;s one of my favorite stories of intertwined technological process.<p>An engine requires piston that move within a bore. To create the pressure that process has to be precise. This process was perfected in making cannons.<p>Why I like this story is that it embodies the unintended consequences that underlies so much of progress, like Alexander Graham Bell inventing the telephone while trying to create something for the deaf.<p>You see this with research now that&#x27;s plagued with being goal-oriented. &quot;What will you discover&#x2F;prove&#x2F;invent in the next 5-10 years?&quot; Who can say?<p>Also, the steam engine and the internal combustion engine are directly the products of technology created for war to kill people.
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bichiliad将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m reading a really good book on the history of steam power called &quot;Fossil Capital&quot;[0]. The thesis so far seems to be that access to — and need for — more portable energy like fossil fuels drove the ability to expand. This in turn induced more demand for energy as humans developed further and further away from places that traditionally provided energy in fixed places, like rivers that could power water wheels.<p>The book ties this into the roots of the idea of infinite growth, as well as the climate crisis. It&#x27;s a little sad in that respect, but also genuinely fascinating if you like history.<p>[0]:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.versobooks.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;2002-fossil-capital" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.versobooks.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;2002-fossil-capital</a>
zabzonk将近 3 年前
What I have always wondered about is why heavier-than-air flight was not invented earlier? Or put it this way: when was the folded paper (or your material here) airplane invented, and by whom? Then, why not make it bigger?
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bambax将近 3 年前
&gt; <i>Hero</i> [Hero of Alexandria, 10-70 AD] <i>even suggested a mechanical use for the effect. By setting a fire on a hollow, airtight altar, the heated air within would flow down a tube into a sphere full of water, which in turn would be pushed up another tube into a hanging bucket. The bucket, when sufficiently heavy with water, would then pull on a rope to open some temple doors. Crucially, when the fire was extinguished, Hero noted that the cooling of the air in the altar would draw the water back into the sphere again, lighten the bucket, and so allow the doors to be closed by a counterweight.</i><p>Put the contraption on a chariot, use the ropes to turn the wheels instead of &quot;temple doors&quot; (!) and voilà: you have an auto-mobile.<p>Even if it&#x27;s much less practical than using a horse, it&#x27;s amazing that in almost 2000 years, nobody thought of making that for its sheer entertainment value -- or even to convince people that ghosts exist!
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dr_dshiv将近 3 年前
It’s not discussed in the article, but the magic of steam in the 16th century was expressly investigated by Robert Fludd. As a mystical philosopher, he was attacked by the more scientific types of his time. This probably set back the steam engine. But clearly, he was really on to something!! Don’t discount the weird, I guess, is the takeaway.
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stareatgoats将近 3 年前
Not sure what conclusion the author will come to as an answer to the question in the title (part III is still to come). But if it doesn&#x27;t include the liberation of inventors (i.e. the protection of intellectual property through patents) and the legal framework for &quot;anyone&quot; to profit from their inventions then I&#x27;ll be disappointed.<p>As his story indicates so far it was not for the want of ingenuity that the industrial revolution did not occur before, but the social framework for transforming the society in the way that the industrial revolution did was simply not at hand. Primarily because the decisionmakers that held the power were tied to another mode of production, usually involving fleecing peasants.<p>That the industrial revolution needed the steam engine goes without saying. But the steam engine without the industrial revolution was a mere party trick.
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JoeAltmaier将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve often thought we could have had integrated circuits shortly after the invention of photography. 150 years earlier! It would make an interesting steampunk world with steam and hydraulics and CPUs.
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kleton将近 3 年前
A practical steam engine requires a high level of ferrous metallurgy. Samuel Clemens lost his brother to a boiler explosion on a steamer. It was a common occurrence in those days.
mjh2539将近 3 年前
Access to machining and steel production at scale. Steam power was known in antiquity.
aniijbod将近 3 年前
Silly me, I saw that title and I genuinely thought this: &quot;it&#x27;s gonna be some ingeniously titled PR puff cunningly contrived to get me to read about what was behind Valve&#x27;s decision to rename their &#x27;Source&#x27; game engine to &#x27;Steam Engine&#x27;.
cfmcdonald将近 3 年前
For another take on this story, please check out my blog series on the Age of Steam: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;technicshistory.com&#x2F;the-age-of-steam&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;technicshistory.com&#x2F;the-age-of-steam&#x2F;</a>
hgomersall将近 3 年前
I have a similar question: why did the jet engine take so (relatively) long, since it&#x27;s basically a turbo charger with an integrated combustion chamber. The answer, as with the steam engine is the materials science needed to be done first.
dr_dshiv将近 3 年前
Arguably, the steam engine is a form of artificial intelligence. At least with Watt’s engine, the “governor” plays an essential information processing role in modulating the pressure. Sensing and reacting to keep a measured value in an optimal range is pretty much the definition of AI (see Norvig’s definition of intelligence). Autopilot is another example of non-computational AI (autopilot was invented in 1914).
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simonblack将近 3 年前
Machinery depends on metal-working to a fine-enough precision.<p>Steam can escape through very fine gaps and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the engine. Apart from that being a dangerous place to be in for humans.<p>Even 60 years ago, your new car needed to be &#x27;run-in&#x27; for a couple of thousand miles because tolerances in the cylinders weren&#x27;t able to be made fine enough yet.<p>When was the the last time <i>you</i> had to &#x27;run-in&#x27; a new car?
mhb将近 3 年前
Primitive Technology: Iron knife made from bacteria<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dhW4XFGQB4o" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dhW4XFGQB4o</a>
Waterluvian将近 3 年前
I’m no expert on the history of invention but I assume there’s some latency where a technology is discovered and it takes time to make it useful. And then that opens up new technologies to be discovered etc.<p>Something I’m curious about are what technologies sat around a very very long time with no real blocker for discovery. That it was as simple as “nobody thought to do it that way…”
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xaedes将近 3 年前
I was always under the impression that it would be cool to have solar cells or mirrors automatically follow the sun using mechanical processes like those depicted in the article, without the need for additional electronics and motors. Does something like this exist and I only don&#x27;t know of it?
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kragen将近 3 年前
To me the most surprising thing about this series is that de Caus had a working CSP (concentrated solar power) setup by 01615 (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;antonhowes.substack.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;57230676&#x2F;solar-powered-steam-engines" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;antonhowes.substack.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;57230676&#x2F;solar-powered-ste...</a>, original source <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;raisonsdesforce00Caus" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;raisonsdesforce00Caus</a>). I had thought CSP only dated to Shuman&#x27;s installation in Egypt in 01913, but I see that <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Concentrated_solar_power#History" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Concentrated_solar_power#Histo...</a> also mentions that Mouchout did a solar steam engine in 01866.<p>But 01615! We&#x27;ve had working solar power machinery for <i>four centuries</i>.
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beefman将近 3 年前
Part I was posted here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31765136" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31765136</a>
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mariuolo将近 3 年前
The unavailability of rubber as sealant both in Europe and Asia is not mentioned in either part I or II.
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gwbas1c将近 3 年前
Maybe put the engineering discussion aside for a moment and think about the developments in economics and capitalism at the same time?<p>A cheaper way to do work? Invest in developing it!
mitghi将近 3 年前
Do you mean Source Engine?
zackmorris将近 3 年前
Subjugation.<p>Almost the entirety of the human population has been under some form of servitude or bondage since the beginning. Only a handful of experiments in democracy like the USA managed to exist for more than a few hundred years. And those owed their existence to either slavery or the oppression of women. For every James Watt, there are 10,000 people just as smart who spent the entirety of their lives toiling to make someone else rich.<p>As long as we view progress through the lens of our own merit, nothing will ever change. Which is perhaps my greatest disappointment with how the 21st century has played out vs the original vision of the internet as a great equalizer providing knowledge and resources for everyone in an egalitarian fashion. We all got sold a bill of goods by the wealthy financiers who own everything now, including HN which was quickly coopted sadly.