TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Signal: You were the chosen one [video]

348 点作者 kitkat_new将近 3 年前

37 条评论

harry8将近 3 年前
Signal brought e2e encryption to the masses in a form that was and is usable. From signal having it came whatsapp asking the signal devs to &quot;do that for whatsapp&quot; and a billion more got it.<p>That is no small thing. Bitch all you want but make sure when you do you compare it to the success of literally ever other attempt to bring e2e to the masses and then if I&#x27;m gonna be snarky maybe compare it to your own achievements.<p>It would have been fantastic if signal also achieved other things on top of what they did. Maybe. Knocking what they did? Forget it. Signal is an outstanding achievement and nothing else comes close. I will cheer you so, so hard if you beat it.
评论 #32249890 未加载
评论 #32247986 未加载
评论 #32247646 未加载
评论 #32248350 未加载
评论 #32247785 未加载
评论 #32248057 未加载
评论 #32247606 未加载
评论 #32249405 未加载
评论 #32247664 未加载
评论 #32247955 未加载
评论 #32248168 未加载
评论 #32250077 未加载
评论 #32248333 未加载
评论 #32249462 未加载
评论 #32249805 未加载
评论 #32249981 未加载
izacus将近 3 年前
Signal is yet another of those products that Knows Better Than You what&#x27;s good for you. It Knows Better what you&#x27;re allowed to do with your messages, what kind of client you&#x27;re allowed to use, what kind of multidevice experience you need and when it should destroy messages you care about.<p>The arrogance of the owner directly transfers to the arrogance and lack of control in the software which is fundamentally limiting its usefulness for everyone.
评论 #32248384 未加载
评论 #32248367 未加载
评论 #32249066 未加载
评论 #32249454 未加载
mayop100将近 3 年前
The author notes: &quot;Finally, we need to talk federation. Does it make moving fast and breaking things more difficult? Yes, yes it does, and that can be a good thing.&quot;<p>The other, super-underrated feature of federated systems is that antagonistic parties are willing to use them together. For example, the US military, Russian government, major international banks, Google, Facebook, etc ALL use email and happily exchange messages over SMTP. There&#x27;s no centralized service you could get all these parties to agree to use (not even Signal).<p>The result of this is that <i>everyone</i> has an email address, and that makes it the universal standard for business-to-business communication. I can loop in any number of parties on a single thread from all over the world and it just works.<p>My startup Shortwave is trying to build a messaging future that <i>is</i> email. We&#x27;re trying to evolve and upgrade email to have the look and feel and features of a product like Signal, but with all the universal, federated goodness of the global SMTP network. It&#x27;s a long project -- federated systems evolve slowly! -- but it&#x27;s the bright open future I think we need. I go into some detail here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.shortwave.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;future-of-messaging&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.shortwave.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;future-of-messaging&#x2F;</a>
评论 #32249386 未加载
评论 #32250129 未加载
评论 #32251186 未加载
评论 #32249518 未加载
评论 #32249342 未加载
评论 #32249600 未加载
评论 #32249577 未加载
评论 #32249316 未加载
BlackLotus89将近 3 年前
He starts with saying that this is is the Q and A session that we didn&#x27;t get and then rants for 25 minutes.<p>7 people tried to talk and were rushed&#x2F;talked off topic<p>* you can&#x27;t download the APk<p><pre><code> * yes you can </code></pre> * telegram lets you download the apk and it&#x27;s on fdroid<p>* yeah would be nice if signal was on fdroid<p>--<p>* there is wire... you should know there is wire<p>* moxy complained about the update problem... and he was right<p>* tor does this better<p>--<p>* I don&#x27;t want to use my phone number (rants over why he needs it)<p>* signal is working on it<p>--<p>* E-Mail comparison isn&#x27;t fair. it&#x27;s survivor bias, many others failed<p>* signal has good cryptography and has a good usability<p>--<p>* there are other third party clients that just work and it&#x27;s ok<p>* it&#x27;s not that frowned upon, but they are hard to maintain because signal is a moving target<p>--<p>* clearos has signal fork called ClearSIGNAL I wonder if this will be shut down <i>winkwink</i><p>--<p>* signal has too much of a silicon valley vipe for me<p>---<p>This wasn&#x27;t the Q and A we were missing.<p>This talk wasn&#x27;t what was promised and most talking points he had were easy enough to counter. But yeah signal clients that aren&#x27;t signal would be nice. Kind of<p>Edit sorry for the horrible formatting
COGlory将近 3 年前
Signal always left a bad taste in my mouth. It&#x27;s fundamentally built on the requirement that to have conversations with any trusted individual, I need to, for no obvious reason, also incorporate and trust a 3rd party individual, who won&#x27;t even use their real name, and did some shady crypto currency integration.<p>Matrix is so so much better in that regard. I can communicate without any 3rd party needing to be trusted. The areas where I need a &quot;3rd party&quot; (the server and client code) are effectively diluted by the fact that thousands of eyes pore over it. Rather then trust in a single person (Marlinspike), instead I just have to trust the person I&#x27;m actually talking to.<p>And the Matrix team have done nothing to make me question their motives.
评论 #32247609 未加载
评论 #32247496 未加载
评论 #32248053 未加载
评论 #32248214 未加载
评论 #32249469 未加载
评论 #32247312 未加载
meowfly将近 3 年前
There definitely seems to be a gap between what a certain subset of people want out of Signal and what I do.<p>I like Signal because it is a fairly pure messaging app. Admittedly, introduction of Mobile Coin has marred that though. I want something analogous to SMS but is E2E encrypted. I&#x27;m personally not intentionally trying to evade state governments, I&#x27;m concerned about Comcast.<p>My favorite Signal feature is automatic deleting messages. I can have ephemeral conversations with people about politics, a health issue, etc and <i>generally</i> trust that it won&#x27;t be on their phone later. When that feature rolled out, it was controversial. The security types complained that it provided a fake assurance of privacy since there was nothing stopping screenshotting or simply taking a picture of your phone. It reminds me of the federation discussion in that I understand the concern from security pureists, but Signal still seems like the better option than an FB managed app or SMS while still providing something my parents can easily use.
评论 #32248586 未加载
评论 #32249463 未加载
nicoco将近 3 年前
No mention of XMPP so I&#x27;ll be that guy.<p>XMPP has a variety of clients for about all platforms, is federated, can (optionally) be e2ee. Its most used client on Android is user-friendly and has built-in (optional, again) tor support. On a cheap vps you can easily run a server with many users. I think it deserves a little more love than it receives.
评论 #32248755 未加载
评论 #32247698 未加载
评论 #32247653 未加载
评论 #32248476 未加载
评论 #32248120 未加载
评论 #32247673 未加载
signalchaff将近 3 年前
As an old hacker and daily Signal user, I have mixed feelings. I want my freedom, but I recognize centralizing controlling effects can help the “network” with quality issues. As maligned as Nintendo’s NES era policies towards third-parties, there was a direct historical reason for it. Shit quality tanked the industry.<p>So imagine a world of half-baked, likely insecure clients popping up, creating confusion and chaos around what is a great tool &#x2F; protocol.<p>It’s… hard.
评论 #32246247 未加载
评论 #32246647 未加载
评论 #32246637 未加载
评论 #32246312 未加载
kitsunesoba将近 3 年前
I haven’t yet watched the video, but I agree with the text in that I found the Signal’s hostility toward third party clients both confusing and disappointing. That single decision probably dampened my excitement for it as both a developer and user than anything else.
h4waii将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m really torn on Signal these days. It&#x27;s still a great method of communication, but it&#x27;s kinda floating in a sea of other great methods of communication.<p>I remember using TextSecure while rockin&#x27; a Whisper System shirt, cause it was the best way to show support, but now it&#x27;s opaque updates to include cryptocurrency, chat stickers, and subscriptions.
评论 #32249771 未加载
评论 #32247226 未加载
checkyoursudo将近 3 年前
What I don&#x27;t understand about the phone app version of Signal is, when I say &quot;No I don&#x27;t want to share my contacts&quot; or &quot;No I don&#x27;t want notifications&quot;, it says Ok, we&#x27;ll remind you later. And it sure does. I thought that apps were generally supposed to respect a user&#x27;s decision to tell it to fuck off.
评论 #32249130 未加载
评论 #32248340 未加载
GekkePrutser将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve always hated Moxie&#x27;s stance on federation and alternative clients. As a result I&#x27;ve never promoted Signal among my friends as an alternative for WhatsApp.<p>I strongly believe in federation and open client ecosystems. Matrix is ideal for me but people don&#x27;t seem to like it. I&#x27;m kinda hoping that signal will change now that Moxie is gone.
评论 #32249558 未加载
m1keil将近 3 年前
I really wanted to address the speaker&#x27;s points but what&#x27;s the point, it&#x27;s just a rant (kudos to him for being upfront about it). Instead I just went and donated to Signal once again.
评论 #32249195 未加载
dogecoinbase将近 3 年前
As a concrete reminder, Signal didn&#x27;t publish the source for their server-side from 20 April 2020 to 6 April 2021 while they secretly added a cryptocurrency payment system, which Moxie denied they were doing in January 2021 (I&#x27;m on phone at the moment, happy to provide cites later but truly, they&#x27;re not hard to find).<p>Don&#x27;t trust Moxie; don&#x27;t trust the server side of Signal.
评论 #32248452 未加载
评论 #32248436 未加载
评论 #32247893 未加载
laserbeam将近 3 年前
I tried to watch the video... But damn the speaker is hard to pay attention to. I barely got through the intro.<p>Honestly, Signal was too unreliable and hard to use for me. I&#x27;ve lost too many messages, had issues with multi device use (with messages not syncing correctly or not being delivered everywhere). Security is cool but I need more reliability. Also my threat model is not that high.<p>They just gotta work on reliability and some more joy in the UX for regular folk. Might not be easy but I&#x27;ve seen too little progress in that direction over the years and I don&#x27;t feel it&#x27;s high on their priority list. At least that&#x27;s the optics from a distance.
评论 #32247880 未加载
评论 #32248596 未加载
Yaina将近 3 年前
I primary use Telegram and sometimes Signal when I need to.<p>Telegram &gt;is&lt; very – very, very – shady but it&#x27;s hard to argue with the extreme polish and attention to detail with which all of it&#x27;s apps are made.<p>Signal does not even come close in terms of user experience (neither does Matrix) and Signal also does not seem to strive to catch up. Their position seems to be that security as a feature has to be enough.<p>I&#x27;d love to have an alternative to Telegram, but Signal ain&#x27;t it.
评论 #32256197 未加载
api将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m glad to see someone push back a bit on Moxie&#x27;s reasoning in that essay. For those who have not seen it:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;signal.org&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-ecosystem-is-moving&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;signal.org&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-ecosystem-is-moving&#x2F;</a><p>I&#x27;ve thought he&#x27;s wrong for a while. The problem is not that you can&#x27;t innovate within the context of a (well designed) federated system. If that were true the Internet would still be using telnet, rlogin, finger, Gopher, and vanilla ftp.<p>The problem with decentralized and federated systems, as I&#x27;ve repeated ad nauseum, is lack of an economic model. It&#x27;s the same as the problem with any kind of consumer-oriented open source. IMHO every other explanation is mental contortions to avoid looking at the economic factor.<p>The innovation isn&#x27;t happening because producing high quality software with support for multiple platforms, diverse network environments, etc. is fabulously expensive yet we pretend it&#x27;s something hobbyists (who don&#x27;t have trust funds) can do in their spare time.<p>Centralized systems can have their choice of viable economic models: commercial software rental (SaaS), non-profit fund raising, free core with paid upgrades, advertising, and of course less savory ones like surveillance and pay-to-play addictionware.<p>You can try to raise money for clients&#x2F;nodes to run in decentralized and federated systems, but since there&#x27;s always more than one and very few people pay for anything unless compelled there&#x27;s always going to be too little funding to make any of them great.<p>For a little while I was optimistic that cryptocurrency and tokenization might provide a mechanism, but then scammers and gamblers destroyed that ecosystem.
alexjurkiewicz将近 3 年前
The &quot;major problems&quot; this talk seems to address are essentially that Signal doesn&#x27;t support third party clients.<p>Really? Supporting SailfishOS won&#x27;t move the needle on Signal adoption. Just say the truth: you want the ability to hack around with the protocol and clients, for fun.
diimdeep将近 3 年前
I use Telegram because it is a superior product. Then I don&#x27;t see the point in encrypted chats with many users, no use case for me. For work, I would use self-hosted solution like Mattermost. Then, if it is true that Signal behave like they know better VC company and block 3rd party clients, etc. Signal is centralized, but I want decentralization, not just from technological point of view. With today predatory imperialistic sanctions issued by US against whole countries, I do not want to place all my eggs in same bucket, controlled by US government and I still remember Snowden revelations.
评论 #32249487 未加载
hammyhavoc将近 3 年前
Bring on Matrix protocol.
LAC-Tech将近 3 年前
I like Signal because the video calls work excellently. I&#x27;ve only had bad experience with matrix &amp; jitsi.
评论 #32247966 未加载
baxuz将近 3 年前
The biggest issue I have with it is the fact that everyone using it behaves like they&#x27;re the main character in a blockbuster action thriller.<p>Everyone else is out to get them but they are using this brand new 1337 h4xx0r technology called E2EE®™© which keeps the Bad Guys™ away.<p>Meanwhile, I&#x27;d just like to have a messaging service that I can use on multiple devices and which isn&#x27;t tied to my phone (number), and which doesn&#x27;t have a trash client.
评论 #32250311 未加载
hosh将近 3 年前
I wonder why XMPP is not more popular. It’s like people forgot that it has e2ee, and that the protocol is flexible enough for people to iterate quickly with, or how there’s a well laid out path to get extensions into the standard, and there are already robust, battle-tested, and scalable implementations of both clients and servers in multiple languages. Instead we end up trying to reinvent an ecosystem with Matrix?
评论 #32248806 未加载
评论 #32249012 未加载
morjom将近 3 年前
Getting people onboard of Matrix clients vs Signal in daily life will be difficult.
评论 #32247701 未加载
评论 #32247345 未加载
andrewclunn将近 3 年前
Signal has vastly improved in its user experience in the past few years, it&#x27;s simple enough that my parents and girlfriend use it, and the enforced policies err on the side of security.<p>This reads like a Linux user who gets frustrated when people use Ubuntu. You like Matrix? Cool, use it, but I for one don&#x27;t give a damn about your self destructive purity spiral.
phs318u将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m surprised no one here has mentioned <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnunet.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnunet.org&#x2F;</a><p>Currently they&#x27;re pretty far off something robust and usable by relatively tech savvy folks let alone the masses, but the direction is sound and I&#x27;m sure they&#x27;d be happy for help.
评论 #32249412 未加载
JustSomeNobody将近 3 年前
Can&#x27;t read the article as it is being HN&#x27;d to death. But...<p>I really like signal. I send a message and the other person receives it. They send me one and I get it. Rarely is it down for me and I use this app as my primary means of communication with a number of people. Is it perfect? No, but it is mostly there.<p>My personal wants:<p>Don&#x27;t use phone numbers - though I totally get why they chose to and I&#x27;m okay with that. But move on. At the very least let me use one account on multiple phones - there are far too many of us that have two or more phones.<p>Some sort of mesh operation. If I&#x27;m on the same network as someone, my messages should go straight to them.<p>But, you know, as long as Signal doesn&#x27;t degrade I can live with the features it currently has and be perfectly fine and I&#x27;ll continue to donate.
mananaysiempre将近 3 年前
CCC’s self-hosted page: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;media.ccc.de&#x2F;v&#x2F;mch2022-196-signal-you-were-the-chosen-one-" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;media.ccc.de&#x2F;v&#x2F;mch2022-196-signal-you-were-the-chose...</a>
aembleton将近 3 年前
rysiek claims in this talk that the Signal desktop app requires 4GB of RAM in order to run because it is an electron app. Where does he get that number from?<p>I&#x27;m currently running Signal on OSX and it has been open for 7 days. It has 5 processes, that combined are using 440MB. This is a lot, but an order of magnitude smaller than rysiek claims.<p>Thought I&#x27;d look at other electron apps I have running. Slack is using ~700MB and VSCode is using ~1.4GB.
asojfdowgh将近 3 年前
the examples given (matrix, activitypubkindathing) both have major players (matrix, mastodon) that move fast enough that everyone else is <i>constantly</i> chasing after parity with them, which IMO kinda re-enforces moxie&#x27;s point.<p>As far as I can tell, if you want to do fully open and parity, you got either IRC, the joke being still lack of parity, no client can agree on using the same E2E encryption method, etc. Or XMPP, once again, 5million extensions to the spec (the XSF recommends reading through 23 seperate RFCs to get an idea of how to implement a client).<p>- - -<p>So, if you have issues with the current options, and concrete ideas of how to solve them, please free us all from the hell that is current open communications. This isn&#x27;t a &quot;just fork it&quot;, its an earnest plea.
评论 #32248468 未加载
jillesvangurp将近 3 年前
In the past 30 years I&#x27;ve used email, and close to three dozen different messaging solutions that each came and went.<p>Patterns why none of these chat solutions really stick long:<p>- Lack of standardization and ecosystem. There are multiple standards of course. But unlike email, none of the standard based products ever managed to become entrenched enough such that the rest of the market could not afford to ignore the standard. Jabber for example never really ended up mattering because at no point did it get over ever a percent of user adoption. Email had the advantage that you could email the whole world or only people inside a single company with corporate mailing systems. By the time MS figured out that they wanted in, they tried really hard to change that but never really were able to make people use their protocols rather than SMTP for delivering emails. For better or worse, that&#x27;s how mail gets delivered.<p>- Walled gardens where companies jealously aim to keep all competitors outside. Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Yahoo, AOL, etc. each had a go at this space with long forgotten products. And some of the products that disrupted those are also long gone.<p>- Reinvention of the same wheels over and over again. It&#x27;s disgusting how close e.g. ICQ was in functionality to things like Signal and Whatsapp. That was in the late nineties! This space is running around in circles. Arguably it had some useful features that some contemporary products still lack.<p>- Federation is consistently rejected as a feature by new players and a contributing factor for their inevitable demise; even if initially successful. What matters more to people is who they can chat with than what the feature set is when they are chatting. Whatsapp cleverly capitalized on that end ended up disrupting lot of entrenched things simply by offering wider access to essentially everyone with a phone, which at this point is most of the planet. Of course, whatsapp&#x27;s popularity has suffered a lot in recent years courtesy of Facebook doing what every other big company has done in this space historic: get overly possessive and throw out the baby with the bathwater. Signal is backed by the Whatsapp founder. And ironically repeats most of its mistakes.<p>- Users inevitably try out a new app and as they move, some apps go in and out of favor. And since they don&#x27;t federate, users go where the other users are.<p>Wake me up when Telegram, Whatsapp, Signal, whatever the hell Google is calling their chat app this month, iMessage, etc. can talk to each other. I have close to a dozen chat and messaging apps on my phone and they all get used. It&#x27;s beyond ridiculous. All proprietary walled gardens with enough people in them that I somehow need to be there as well.<p>That&#x27;s why email is still a thing. Because when you have to reach somebody, you send them an email. Instead of playing roulette with your selection of chat apps to see which one of those might get a response. Pun intended of course, chat roulette was a thing at some point.
评论 #32248866 未加载
medo-bear将近 3 年前
im curious what people think about briar. it seems to be the next iteration of secure communication protocol. real time physical conversation happens (usually) without a middle man. there is no reason we need a cetralized server to regulate all of our chats
whitenickel08将近 3 年前
I found plenty of my contacts moved to Signal in the last two years. I can even order in some restaurant nearby with Signal, but not having to reveal my phone number is one of the things I like from Threema.
Winnie080将近 3 年前
I was used to be a digital marketer of Alexa, but now the website was closed. I find another alternative one: Blexb.
评论 #32285602 未加载
dhlaoq将近 3 年前
Why do you need centralization for &quot;network effects&quot;? Send a cc mail to all people you want to communicate with, exchange keys in person and use PGP.<p>Worried about traffic analysis? Well, in that case don&#x27;t trust Signal and send encrypted messages regularly (including fake messages) to some Usenet group, using mixmaster or Tor.
评论 #32249239 未加载
mellosouls将近 3 年前
(Video)
denkmoon将近 3 年前
Matrix is the chosen one.