TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

589 点作者 hassanahmad将近 3 年前

52 条评论

jcranmer将近 3 年前
I think Musk&#x27;s counterclaims are more interesting than Twitter&#x27;s response. Here&#x27;s the summary of the five counterclaims:<p>* Twitter committed fraud by lying to the SEC about the mDAU numbers with the intent of inducing Musk to buy Twitter at an inflated price. No, really, this is the allegation (see paragraphs 202-206).<p>* Count 2 is that Twitter committed [Texas fraud statute] by lying when it offered its shares. It&#x27;s shotgun-pled, so I don&#x27;t know which specific statements are supposed to be wrong, but I&#x27;m imagining it&#x27;s basically the previous count recast under a different statute.<p>* Count 3 says that Twitter broke the contract by failing to provide information.<p>* Count 4 says that Twitter broke the contract by instituting a hiring freeze. [not gonna fly, especially when Musk admitted that Twitter gave him warning of what it was doing and Musk didn&#x27;t respond. Did I mention that Musk&#x27;s answer admits far more than I would have expected?]<p>* Count 5 is pretty please declare that Twitter lying about mDAUs is a materially adverse event that is cause to break the contract.<p>I still can&#x27;t get over the banana-pants insanity of the first count... arguing that Twitter lied about its numbers for years specifically so that someone would buy it at an inflated price?
评论 #32359961 未加载
评论 #32359943 未加载
评论 #32360042 未加载
评论 #32359952 未加载
评论 #32363761 未加载
评论 #32364827 未加载
评论 #32359960 未加载
评论 #32360722 未加载
评论 #32360878 未加载
评论 #32360063 未加载
评论 #32360049 未加载
评论 #32363029 未加载
评论 #32359978 未加载
matt_s将近 3 年前
&gt; &quot;To the contrary, Musk forwent all due diligence—giving Twitter twenty-four hours to accept his take-it-or-leave-it offer before he would present it directly to Twitter&#x27;s stockholders,&quot; Twitter wrote.<p>Bot&#x2F;spam account analysis is just trying to do PR spin. Musk has no legal standing to use any of that to back out of the merger.<p>&gt; The five-day trial is now scheduled to begin on October 17<p>So we will see about 2 more months of PR campaigns from Musk and Twitter about the case.
评论 #32359872 未加载
jjeaff将近 3 年前
I find it rather ridiculous and in bad faith that Musk is harping on the bot issue for 2 reasons.<p>First, it wouldn&#x27;t matter anyway. He signed away any and all rights to due diligence in the agreement.<p>And secondly, it&#x27;s completely impossible for any outside analysis to determine the number of active users on Twitter because most active Twitter users don&#x27;t tweet or interact in anyway. They just read tweets and those users see ads, which makes them monetizable users.
评论 #32360101 未加载
评论 #32360207 未加载
评论 #32360031 未加载
mcguire将近 3 年前
&quot;<i>The merger agreement contained no references to false or spam accounts, and Musk didn&#x27;t ask Twitter for any information to verify the number of spam accounts before signing the merger deal, Twitter said. &quot;To the contrary, Musk forwent all due diligence—giving Twitter twenty-four hours to accept his take-it-or-leave-it offer before he would present it directly to Twitter&#x27;s stockholders,&quot; Twitter wrote.</i>&quot;<p>If that&#x27;s true, it kind of makes the question moot.
评论 #32360318 未加载
评论 #32360817 未加载
jjeaff将近 3 年前
Imagine this whole ordeal playing out on a house that was not listed for sale.<p>The buyer starts harassing the homeowner to sell to them, they say no, so he buys up the mortgage lender and tries to force a sale. His antics are hurting the home&#x27;s value so you relent to selling and give him an as-is sale contract, which he signs and gives you 24 hrs to respond or he will try to force a sale.<p>All the while, this is of course taking your attention away from your day job and costing you countless thousands in legal bills.<p>Then, soon after signing the contract, the housing market crashes and the buyer claims he peaked in the window and it doesn&#x27;t look as nice as he imagined (even though he had previously been publicly announcing that your house was crappy on the inside and that he was going to buy it and fix it up) and so he wants to break the deal.<p>You sue to make the deal go through, he countersues that you misrepresented.<p>Who could possibly be on the side of the buyer?
评论 #32363073 未加载
评论 #32360844 未加载
评论 #32361897 未加载
评论 #32361070 未加载
评论 #32364237 未加载
评论 #32362076 未加载
评论 #32361576 未加载
评论 #32360829 未加载
评论 #32364243 未加载
评论 #32362955 未加载
评论 #32361974 未加载
评论 #32364706 未加载
评论 #32361419 未加载
评论 #32361061 未加载
评论 #32361654 未加载
评论 #32361140 未加载
评论 #32362165 未加载
评论 #32362963 未加载
评论 #32361838 未加载
评论 #32361874 未加载
评论 #32364525 未加载
评论 #32361427 未加载
评论 #32363278 未加载
hn_throwaway_99将近 3 年前
I really can&#x27;t see any other outcome besides Musk getting his ass handed to him by the Delaware Court of Chancery.<p>It&#x27;s always important to look at incentives and motivations when trying to read the tea leaves, and if you look at <i>Delaware&#x27;s</i> incentives, it&#x27;s very clear. The whole reason everyone incorporates in Delaware is because they have centuries of handling business cases and have built out a clear set of rules and procedures. That is, businesses go to them more for <i>stability</i> and <i>predictability</i> than anything else.<p>Musk signed a contract. The BS reasons he is trying to use to back out of it are borderline laughable, and even he knows this, so if anything is just really trying to negotiate better terms. The Delaware Court has every incentive to hold up the established rules of contracts, <i>especially</i> business acquisition contracts, and I&#x27;d be pretty shocked if they ruled in favor of Musk on any of his claims.
评论 #32362703 未加载
评论 #32364805 未加载
qq66将近 3 年前
All of this is just a theatrical farce by business guys. The market went down, Elon doesn&#x27;t want to pay, Twitter has a pretty good negotiating position, the parties will settle out of court for $3-5 billion.
评论 #32362009 未加载
评论 #32362023 未加载
rchaud将近 3 年前
Few accounts post as much vapid engagement-bait and as frequently as @elonmusk does, so I have sympathy for the bot analysis tool.
评论 #32362877 未加载
评论 #32361508 未加载
rossdavidh将近 3 年前
It is possible that this means Musk&#x27;s spam analysis tool is defective. But, there is another logical possibility...
评论 #32362212 未加载
mabbo将近 3 年前
Just in case anyone isn&#x27;t seeing through the bullshit of Elon Musk, let me lay this out for you:<p>On April 14th: Twitter stock was worth about $45. Tesla stock was worth about $985. Elon&#x27;s contract said he would sell $13B worth of Tesla stock (about 13.1m stocks) as part of the plan to buy Twitter for $44B, $54.20 per share. A good deal for the Twitter shareholders even at the time. (23% higher than the market said it was worth).<p>On May 13th: Twitter stock is worth $40[0]. Tesla stock was worth about $769. So now Elon would have to sell 16.9m shares of Tesla, 28% more, to get a company worth 12.5% less. All signs pointed to both stocks continuing to decline along with all of tech, so the deal was getting worse and worse every day for Elon, and better and better every day for Twitter&#x27;s shareholders.<p>Elon Musk will say or do anything he has to in order to cut his losses. There&#x27;s that well-talked-about $1B get-out-of-deal fee that everyone thinks he&#x27;ll be able to use. But that&#x27;s actually not a valid thing- that was only if the SEC blocked the deal. He&#x27;s contractually obligated to buy the company.<p>Elon is screwed. All the noise he is making is not going to get him out of it because the Twitter shareholders will hire lawyers just as good and expensive as his- and they are in the right.<p>[0]And even then $40 is only because the stock was pumped up from Elon saying he&#x27;s buying it all. If not for that, it would be even lower- meaning this is an even better deal for the shareholders.
评论 #32362767 未加载
AllegedAlec将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m still convinced he&#x27;s just gonna use it to suggest that a judge should meet him in the middle; make him buy the company, but use the allegations of large numbers of bots to reduce the price.
评论 #32360369 未加载
评论 #32360940 未加载
评论 #32360837 未加载
polishdude20将近 3 年前
How much of this show and dance is really about covering up something else that Musk did? Is it possible this is done to overshadow other newsworthy stories that would be even more detrimental to his reputation?
评论 #32364950 未加载
评论 #32365792 未加载
评论 #32362870 未加载
pcmoney将近 3 年前
Musk seems like a smart guy who got overconfident and out of his area of expertise and made a series of incredibly stupid decisions. Pretty much every legal and financial professional without a vested Musk related interest seems to think similarly. Matt Levine has been lights out on this topic. Everyone knows his bot claims are just FUD to try and weasel out of writing a check he no longer has the guts to cash with current valuations.<p>Prediction: They settle for a couple billion OR Musk buys them at a slight discount to the currently agreed price. Maybe $49.69 because he is a clown?<p>Twitter replies to counter claims: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s22.q4cdn.com&#x2F;826641620&#x2F;files&#x2F;doc_news&#x2F;2022&#x2F;08&#x2F;Twitters-Reply-to-Verified-Counterclaims.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s22.q4cdn.com&#x2F;826641620&#x2F;files&#x2F;doc_news&#x2F;2022&#x2F;08&#x2F;Twitt...</a>
评论 #32359852 未加载
评论 #32360078 未加载
评论 #32360946 未加载
评论 #32360205 未加载
tikiman163将近 3 年前
I hope this seriously bites Musk in the ass. I hope he&#x27;s forced to buy it, and then it&#x27;s such a pain in the ass for him that he immediately tries to turn around and sell only to discover no single entity or investment group wants to privately own Twitter. I hope he makes another dumbass tweet that results in another legal action removing him as the president&#x2F;ceo&#x2F;whatever and then decides to just take Twitter public again so he can divest himself.<p>I hope Twitter users don&#x27;t have to deal with too much chaos as a result, but if it half bankrupts an idiot who openly accused a rescue diver of being a pedophile, despite knowing nothing about the man, and merely because he told Musk not to interfere with rescue operations, then let Twitter deal with a little chaos.
jsharf将近 3 年前
To be fair, that&#x27;s a realistic mistake that twitter users might make too. Musk has one of the most faked accounts on the site, with lots of bots running Musk impersonation crypto scams. IMO this says more about the problems with twitter than about an inaccuracy in Musk&#x27;s script.
jliptzin将近 3 年前
Why is twitter so desperate to sell to Musk? Are they really out of ideas? If they just want to squeeze out an extra $11.50 &#x2F; share I can think of tons of ways to do it, they don&#x27;t have to just copy Facebook&#x27;s monetization model. They could let people buy followers; they could add an onlyfans clone to the service; charge a monthly fee for premium features; charge a premium to be the first to know about trending topics - could be useful for news orgs, hedge funds, governments, etc; do what cameo does, let users pay popular accounts to make customized videos and take a cut of revenue. This is just off the top of my head, if you&#x27;re just trying to squeeze money out of the rock and don&#x27;t really care about long term brand impact I feel like they can get a lot more than $11.50 &#x2F; share.
评论 #32367981 未加载
usgroup将近 3 年前
Would their be any benefit to Musk going through this ordeal meanwhile fully intending to buy Twitter all along?
评论 #32360154 未加载
评论 #32360102 未加载
评论 #32361783 未加载
AtNightWeCode将近 3 年前
It is impossible for neutral companies to get mDAU data for Twitter. Twitter needs to provide proof. You can’t use Twitter professionally without using bots btw.<p>There is a food market at the ground level of Twitter HQ with an awesome beer selection. More valuable than most Twitter accounts. :)
qwertox将近 3 年前
I have 30 Twitter accounts, but only one is used. It&#x27;s only used to be able to occasionally search for news on Twitter.<p>I wonder if those other 29 accounts are actually removed from the active accounts count when trying to sell their numbers.
评论 #32362233 未加载
seydor将近 3 年前
I wish this whole saga ended, and Musk buys reddit instead.<p>This current saga is pure entertainment, which will end up in some kind of settlement and will leave the lawyers a lot richer.
评论 #32360561 未加载
评论 #32360267 未加载
评论 #32360846 未加载
amelius将近 3 年前
Where does he find the time to run Tesla and SpaceX? I&#x27;m starting to conclude that he&#x27;s fake and the man was created by investors to serve their purpose.
yalogin将近 3 年前
To be fair Musk’s Twitter does read like a bot full of illogical, nonsensical tweets. So yeah any well written algorithm could classify it as a bot :)
jqgatsby将近 3 年前
plot twist: the spam analysis tool is correct, and Elon is actually a robot, ala Stephen Byerley in Asimov&#x27;s &quot;Evidence&quot;.
评论 #32360487 未加载
评论 #32359970 未加载
patrickdavey将近 3 年前
If I bought Twitter shares today ($42) would Musk be forced to also buy my shares at $52 if the sale was forced through?
评论 #32365201 未加载
leobg将近 3 年前
TL;DR:<p>&gt; Specifically, Musk used &quot;an Internet application called the &#x27;Botometer&#x27;—which applies different standards than Twitter does and which earlier this year designated Musk himself as highly likely to be a bot,&quot; Twitter said.<p>Note the “Earlier this year”. Article continues:<p>&gt; This morning, Botometer gave Musk&#x27;s account a rating of 1.2 out of 5, indicating that Musk is more &quot;human-like&quot; than bot-like as of today.<p>The legal brief continues:<p>&gt; The Botometer thus does not even purport to apply Twitter&#x27;s definition of a false or spam account. In fact, some bots (like those that report earthquakes as they happen or updates on the weather) are often helpful and permissible under Twitter’s platform manipulation and spam policy, to which Twitter respectfully refers the Court.<p>The latter, in my estimate, is irrelevant to the question here. Because the metric in question is “monetizable daily active “. If one person runs, besides their personal profile, 10 bots, it doesn’t matter if those bots are all “permissible“ according to Twitter‘s terms of service. These accounts still constitute, from the point of an advertiser as well as from the point of investors, just one monetizable daily active user, and not eleven.
kabes将近 3 年前
As someone unfamiliar with the US juridical system: when can we expect an outcome in court?<p>Or put otherwise: if we assume Musk is stalling in the hope that tesla shares go back up. How long can he keep this going?
spaceman_2020将近 3 年前
I just find it a little hilarious that Twitter is even attempting to counter the bots claim.<p>You have to spend 5 minutes reading the replies to tweets by prominent politicians to know that its filled with bots
评论 #32365566 未加载
评论 #32365671 未加载
hackerlight将近 3 年前
If he isn&#x27;t forced to buy it, then he was given a free multi billion dollar call option, paid for by Twitter shareholders. That&#x27;s effectively theft.
smeej将近 3 年前
To be fair, Musk himself stated when he hosted SNL that he &quot;runs human on &#x27;emulation mode,&#x27;&quot; so calling himself a bot might be consistent.
评论 #32363513 未加载
stainablesteel将近 3 年前
a lot of people have said a lot of things about this<p>if I was going to buy something for billions of dollars, you&#x27;d better believe multi-year long negotiations, court cases, and backing off as a tactic would be an obvious strategy<p>i&#x27;ll buy into either side&#x27;s spam once something actually happens, premature judgement -&gt; sensationalism in this case
Eriks将近 3 年前
Maybe that&#x27;s because he is acting as a troll sometimes. Troll, bot. What&#x27;s the difference.
suggala将近 3 年前
My guess is Elon is just trying to slow down the takeover until he figure out the money source.
cambaceres将近 3 年前
What happens if Musk loses? Will he be forced to buy the company, or just to pay a huge fine?
评论 #32365703 未加载
yalogin将近 3 年前
Musk has done irreparable damage to his name and brand. The decline from genius and eccentric to straight up fraudster and borderline unstable is just amazing actually. I now don’t know what to think of him as he still has amazing businesses and they haven’t even peaked yet. I may still buy stock in them but won’t work for him ever.
评论 #32363807 未加载
k8si将近 3 年前
Incredibly irritating how much of everyone&#x27;s time Musk has wasted on this
walrus01将近 3 年前
In the end, the real winners here are the lawyers and their billable hours.
coffeeblack将近 3 年前
I don’t think that I trust Twitter on this.<p>Let’s wait for the courts to look at the topic.
givemeethekeys将近 3 年前
If it turns out that it is a bot though, it&#x27;d support Elon Musk&#x27;s argument that we need to be afraid of AI.
tezza将近 3 年前
This must be the best point for Elon Musk to tear off his human face to reveal the impassive robot metal underneath
make3将近 3 年前
read sperm analysis, was very confused. wouldn&#x27;t have been surprising with all the sketchy stories we&#x27;re hearing about him and his family, even if some are false
mike_hearn将近 3 年前
Urgh, Botometer. I guessed it would be that as soon as I saw the headline.<p>I used to work on fighting bots. Botometer has a long and storied history of making totally false claims about Twitter accounts. In the past it identified something like 50% of US Congress as bots. It has unfortunate credibility because it&#x27;s a machine learning model produced by academic &quot;research&quot;, but no credibility is deserved. The academics who created it are, in my view, guilty of gross intellectual misconduct.<p>Botometer has had an absurdly high FP rate for years and Twitter are right to call Musk out for using it, though presumably Musk was just as conned as everyone else who has used this tool. Really the Botometer papers should all be retracted, as should any papers that relied on it, and then the researchers who created it should be fired. Unfortunately this would require retracting huge chunks of academic social bot research - Botometer is just <i>that</i> prevalent.<p>A thorough debunking of the model can be found here by Gallwitz and Kreil:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;2207.11474.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;2207.11474.pdf</a><p><i>&quot;In this paper, we point out a fundamental theoretical flaw in the widely-used study design for estimating the prevalence of social bots. Furthermore, we empirically investigate the validity of peer-reviewed Botometer-based studies by closely and systematically inspecting hundreds of accounts that had been counted as social bots. We were unable to find a single social bot. Instead, we found mostly accounts undoubtedly operated by human users, the vast majority of them using Twitter in an inconspicuous and unremarkable fashion without the slightest traces of automation. We conclude that studies claiming to investigate the prevalence, properties, or influence of social bots based on Botometer have, in reality, just investigated false positives and artifacts of this approach.&quot;</i><p>It took them years to get this paper published, and when they first announced their work the Botometer guys simply called them &quot;academic trolls&quot; and ignored the problems they reported (except for hard-coding their examples to be correct!).<p>If a full paper is too much, I&#x27;ve written a couple of essays about the problems of social bot research. This one summarizes an earlier&#x2F;longer version of the GK paper above:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.plan99.net&#x2F;fake-science-part-ii-bots-that-are-not-c66129e5e3f5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.plan99.net&#x2F;fake-science-part-ii-bots-that-are-n...</a><p>and that earlier paper cites another essay I wrote back in 2017 about a non-Botometer based Twitter bot paper:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.plan99.net&#x2F;did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f08c014a" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.plan99.net&#x2F;did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f...</a><p>Given these issues it&#x27;s not hugely surprising that Musk believes incorrect things about Twitter bots. The field of Twitter bot research is massive with over 10,000 papers. The original Botometer paper has been cited over 800 times. He is far from alone - many politicians and journalists have all fallen for these claims too. Twitter should probably have pushed back far more strongly, far earlier, but the general convention of never criticizing academics regardless of how dishonest they become defanged them and they never went further than a rather mildly worded blog post. Now the chickens have come home to roost. Misinformation spread by &quot;misinformation researchers&quot; is creating real world legal consequences.
dhdsznbszd将近 3 年前
story: critics didnt want elon to buy twitter; elon says he no longer wants to buy twitter; now critics want him to buy twitter<p>plot twist: elon probably still wants to buy twitter now everyone wants him too as well
hk1337将近 3 年前
So, it worked?
motbus3将近 3 年前
plot twist. it was always a bot.
mro_name将近 3 年前
sensible guess, isn&#x27;t it?
bell-cot将近 3 年前
&quot;I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.&quot; - Groucho Marx<p>&quot;I don&#x27;t want to buy any...&quot; - Elan Musk
rmbyrro将近 3 年前
Already preparing some popcorn. This will be fun to watch.
评论 #32359760 未加载
_justinfunk将近 3 年前
Twitter is making two claims that seem to contradict each other:<p>1) The 5% number is right 2) Musk&#x27;s number is wrong because bot counting tools are flawed because bot counting is very difficult.<p>So... if it&#x27;s very difficult... perhaps your 5% number is wrong?
hartator将近 3 年前
&quot;Twitter also ties mDAU goals to executive compensation. In 2020 Twitter based its executives’ cash bonus pool on revenue, operating income, and adjusted EBITDA. After Twitter missed those targets in 2020, and only 32% of the cash bonus pool was funded, Twitter determined that mDAU (a highly manipulable number) should be considered in determining whether executives received these bonuses. Following that change, in 2021, 100% of this executive bonus pool was funded. And since Twitter’s adoption of mDAU over MAU, it has reported ten straight quarters of “growth” despite stagnant financial results&quot;<p>There is also this claim. Not sure why we should Twitter executives benefit of the doubt when they literally tweak metrics to get more money for themselves.
评论 #32360949 未加载
评论 #32360871 未加载
bobobob420将近 3 年前
Twitter is dying this battle and their ceo is truly pathetic. From spending his day trying to reply to Elons tweets to prove himself to now spending time trying to force a billionaire to play out a contract to spend 45 billion when he does not want to. Imagine all the employees who have to watch their CEO cuck himself publicly while they work hard. They should focus on their own internal problems like banning the President of Anerica while allowing religious terrorists (iran leaders and taliban) to tweet on their platform. They show a consistency in not making smart moves. They have one of the most visited websites in the world that is imo one of the most engaging and popular social platforms ever and struggle to capitalize on it. People have to write their stories in series of tweets that have to be read upside down still.
siliconc0w将近 3 年前
Musk has a chance if he can show that Twitter knowingly mislead the public about the bot %. It sounds like their methodology was indeed pretty weak, arguably deliberately so, and they had people on staff that should&#x27;ve known this would produce poor estimates with a large margin on error.
评论 #32361596 未加载
logicalmonster将近 3 年前
Twitter makes what seems like a good &quot;gotcha&quot; point here, but knowing a little bit about how social media bots work, I&#x27;d like to try and give my 2 cents about why Musk&#x27;s profile is probably not a great one for this type of analysis.<p>1) Many people who create a brand new Twitter account just end up following a few celebrities and then either not tweeting much or forgetting about the account after a short time after deciding that Twitter is not for them. It&#x27;s likely that somebody well-known like Musk has a ton of actual human followers who would likely be labelled as bots because they&#x27;re users with basically blank profiles that would be seen as bot-like.<p>2) When programming any reasonably sophisticated bot that doesn&#x27;t just blurt out spam as fast as possible until its banned, the programmer would design it to blend in, to avoid detection by any defense mechanisms that Twitter would have. It would likely be seeded with an array of well-known Twitter profiles to follow at random to appear like a normal person with normal interests. Any particularly well-known Twitter account would be loaded with bots just through bot authors starting out by seeding it with a list of accounts they&#x27;re familiar with.<p>3) Due to his life and wealth, Musk probably also exhibits characteristics that makes him seem more bot-like: such as probably tweeting in random bursts at odd hours in many different geographical locations.<p>4) Given his status as an international figure that also has a role in geopolitics and even military action, it&#x27;s not impossible that there are state actors with big resources who create bots that follow Musks account for anything from trying to influence him with responses and through polls, or to try and make him look bad by &quot;exposing&quot; his bot activity at a later date when they need to influence public sentiment against him.
评论 #32361760 未加载
评论 #32361348 未加载