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Spaced repetition can allow for infinite recall

281 点作者 efavdb将近 3 年前

24 条评论

dls2016将近 3 年前
I was anti-memorization until I went back to graduate school for mathematics. I had forgotten (or never learned) a lot of things needed to pass qualifying exams. At some point I ran across the spaced repetition idea (maybe from the Wired SuperMemo article [0]) and I gave it a try. I ended up using it to memorize large portions of baby Rudin and Munkres&#x27; Topology, as well as some algebra and a bunch of qualifying exam questions.<p>The qualifying exams were difficult until I reached some &quot;critical mass&quot; of knowledge. Then I could regurgitate proofs and even attack novel problems easily.<p>There&#x27;s an analogy here somewhere to the &quot;leetcode&quot; style of software engineer interview. On one hand qualifying exams and leetcode questions are a stupid gatekeeping mechanism, but on the other hand the best researchers&#x2F;engineers I know have a huge number of facts and examples memorized and ready at their fingertips. I didn&#x27;t think I needed to do so, but perhaps there is something to suffering through the rote memorization phase to make what comes next that much easier.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;2008&#x2F;04&#x2F;ff-wozniak&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;2008&#x2F;04&#x2F;ff-wozniak&#x2F;</a>
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tastysandwich将近 3 年前
Based on my own experience, a caveat is that you need to be applying what you&#x27;re learning outside of flashcards. Otherwise, it&#x27;s like your brain has different memory banks for different contexts, and you&#x27;ll remember everything when using your flashcards, but a real-world scenario will come up and you&#x27;ll forget.<p>I went from zero Japanese to JLPT N2 in just a few years and I attribute a great deal of that to Anki. However, I was also frequently talking in Japanese, and reading&#x2F;writing in Japanese. I was constantly using what I was learning.<p>Maybe an analogy is, Anki is like steroids, but you still need to go to the gym. :P<p>I don&#x27;t study Japanese at all anymore and I have very little exposure to the language. But I still do my flashcards. I&#x27;ve noticed my recall is excellent when doing the flashcards, but if I see some Japanese written on a billboard, or think to myself &quot;how do I say this again...&quot;, I struggle to recall even things that are in my flashcard packs.
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cehrlich将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ve been using Anki for language learning and it&#x27;s a superpower. After just over two years I passed an exam that requires a passive vocabulary of about 10,000 words. Other people who grinded harder than me have managed it even faster, some in under a year.<p>However one big mistake people make is to think an SRS helps you learn. That&#x27;s not true. It helps you not forget things you&#x27;ve already learned. You still need some real world interaction with the material.
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bayesian_horse将近 3 年前
This is obviously a joke.<p>But people get spaced repetition wrong. Most people think you need a spaced-repetition schedule for long term memory of facts. You really don&#x27;t. The only proposition of spaced repetition is that you spend less time studying when using this schedule than with a more dense repetition schedule, if both lead to the same long term memory effect.<p>Another schedule might be to review your complete vocabulary list every day. This will also lead you to long term memory, eventually. Earlier probably (in terms of calendar time). But you&#x27;d spend more hands-on-time studying. However, you&#x27;d much prefer the former method over the latter when preparing for an exam on a specific date.<p>Also: formal methods of managing the schedule aren&#x27;t really necessary. Reading in a foreign language counts as repetition of the words. Exposure to the language and the vocabulary counts, for example what Duolingo does with its various activities is partly spaced repetition, but less formally so.
kelseyfrog将近 3 年前
This is false if memory&#x27;s are stored physically in the brain. Unless there is an increase in brain volume, this process will eventually hit the Bekenstein bound. I don&#x27;t care if the upper bound is &quot;effectively infinite,&quot; that&#x27;s not what the proof claimed.
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cptcobalt将近 3 年前
I see this argument as semi-fallacious, since it&#x27;s really asking &quot;can you recall infinite things on an infinite timescale using this method&quot;? Sure, the math might add up, but humans are reliably fallible. I do agree, from practice, that practicing spaced repetition can increase the breadth of knowledge beyond that of &quot;casual learning&quot;, but I&#x27;ve seen my brain fail on aged entries too.<p>Nicky Case&#x27;s intro to spaced repetition is pretty stellar, both as a crash course and the reasoning behind it: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ncase.me&#x2F;remember&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ncase.me&#x2F;remember&#x2F;</a>
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n8henrie将近 3 年前
Not to detract, but there was an article on SRS that I <i>think</i> I came across on HN about 2-3 months ago (though I guess may have been Reddit); I&#x27;ve been struggling to find it for the last month or so.<p>It was a fairly long article, probably a 20-30 minute read, dark background (though I guess this may have been dynamic since I was reading at night), with a broad overview of SRS, several studies cited, and a personal anecdote from someone with somewhere around 10k cards that the author reviewed daily.<p>I wish I could remember more details. I&#x27;ve combed through my browser history in all browsers (desktop and mobile) and have tried a few site-specific timeframe-limited searches with no luck. Does this article sound familiar to anyone? It was a good read and somehow I failed to pinboard it.
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mikkergp将近 3 年前
I know this is just a joke, but there was an interesting Radiolab on memory and forgetting. It posited that forgetting is an active process, and analysis a person who was disabled in such a way that their forgetting process didn&#x27;t work led to some very undesirable outcomes:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;radiolab.org&#x2F;episodes&#x2F;91569-memory-and-forgetting" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;radiolab.org&#x2F;episodes&#x2F;91569-memory-and-forgetting</a>
barking_biscuit将近 3 年前
I mean sure. The trouble is in order to keep the review time per day fixed you need to vary the rate at which you introduce new facts, and as time goes on the interval between when you can afford to introduce new facts will grow to be infinite.<p>The model also doesn&#x27;t account for how you feel about doing this activity. This includes the pain of not doing reviews for several days and then having to catch up. The probability you eventually throw in the towel is also a function of how useful you&#x27;re finding the activity, which in this case since we&#x27;ve opted to keep the per-day study time as fixed will likely be when the interval that you are required to wait before you can add a new fact becomes so large you are routinely bothered by occurrences where you encounter a fact you wanted to put into your SRS but didn&#x27;t have the bandwidth to.<p>Source: input 35 new vocab a day into Anki while learning Japanese a decade ago and grew my vocab deck to 18000+ cards. Reviews would take several hours a day, and at one point I stopped adding new words to try and wait for the daily review load to go down. When it never did despite this, I just deleted the entire thing and say fuck it.
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ggm将近 3 年前
I frequently have arguments with competent mathematicians about the role of rote learning in arithmetic. I think when you move &quot;beyond&quot; arithmetic, you can also forget how important number recall is, in being able to manipulate numeric symbols fluently according to the rules of arithmetic.<p>Include base (hex, binary) and .. its getting worse.<p>Numeracy, numerical literacy and fluency, understanding both the symbol set, and its behaviour in rules of arithmetic, needs to be a given, to talk cogently about numbers.<p>Simply teaching all kids the 12x tables, and how to handle the arithmetic of change giving at a till from the specific units of coin and note available, how to run a total in their head, how to calculate % will be life skills which might literally save their job. And its foundation is recall, and rote learning.<p>Not everyone is heading to 3rd order differential analysis.
krychu将近 3 年前
Shameless plug for a little tool I wrote to learn by repetition on the command line: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;krychu&#x2F;lrn" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;krychu&#x2F;lrn</a><p>I use it whenever I have a few minutes of downtime, no fancy state persistence between sessions.
rideontime将近 3 年前
Sincere question: is this satire?
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examplary_cable将近 3 年前
I have read a lot of comments that appear to be a modification of &quot;I used anki but the accumulation made me drop it&quot;.<p>If you&#x27;re interested, I&#x27;ve worked in a Spaced Repetition Algorithm where they is no card accumulation, you review whenever you feel like. In order to maximize pleasure.<p>In the future I&#x27;ll also configure it to give you subject you &quot;feel&quot; like reviewing at the moment, since pleasure is also associated with memory.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ilse-langnar&#x2F;notebook" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ilse-langnar&#x2F;notebook</a>
cortesoft将近 3 年前
This &#x27;proof&#x27; seems a little suspect. It assumes that the rules they have discovered hold for all situations. Even if they have tested a large number of facts to remember, there is no reason to believe their isn&#x27;t some threshold where it doesn&#x27;t hold anymore.<p>Also, they seem to be holding this learning technique like it is a mathematical fact of the universe. I am not an expert, but nothing in the human brain works that consistently. I can&#x27;t imagine every single person in the world can learn equally well with this technique.<p>Although this is likely some form of satire, because there is no way anyone could seriously think the brain works like this.
gwern将近 3 年前
Forgetting isn&#x27;t a power-law according to Wozniak, but an exponential: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Exponential_nature_of_forgetting" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Exponential_nature_of_forgetting</a> The power-law is just averaging over that: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Exponential_nature_of_forgetting#Power_law_emerges_in_superposition_of_exponential_forgetting_curves" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Exponential_nature_of_forgetting...</a>
kazinator将近 3 年前
It&#x27;s cute math, but doesn&#x27;t take into account the inexplicable differences between the retention of seemingly similar facts. Some items stick very well, whereas others suffer from lapses.<p>In my Ankid ecks, I have items that have 10+ year intervals. And some, which were introduced at around the same time as those, which have intervals in months, beaten down by lapses.<p>Anyone who thinks that some simple math leads to infinite recall has not suddenly lapsed on a card whose interval had reached 7 years.
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dhosek将近 3 年前
It kind of reminds me of what I used to say about 9-ball pool: You can play with an infinite number of players but not everyone will get a turn.
tiborsaas将近 3 年前
Finally, a mathematical proof to take as many pictures as possible is a good idea :)
Silverback_VII将近 3 年前
there are only a limited amount of things you can memorize because your lifetime is also limited. Piotr Wozniak the creator of supermemo, the first spaced repetition program, talks about it on his site: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;How_much_knowledge_can_human_brain_hold" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;How_much_knowledge_can_human_bra...</a><p>this guy is a genius in my opinion.
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myth_drannon将近 3 年前
How can I apply that to leetcode interview preparation?
buscoquadnary将近 3 年前
I&#x27;ll just throw out I am a big fan of spaced repetition I highly recommend it to everyone. For those complaining about &quot;infinite recall&quot; you aren&#x27;t wrong, the pioneer of this movement Piotr Wozniak, even has an article on his wiki (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Piotr_Wozniak" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;supermemo.guru&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Piotr_Wozniak</a>) about how the upper bound of languages you can learn fluently in a lifetime is probably somewhere near 5. But the point isn&#x27;t to remember everything forever, the purpose is to help you learn better.<p>My flow right now for learning things is.<p>1. Find sources copy and paste large swathes of revelevant text and images.<p>2. Re-read the copy and pasted text and create a detailed summary of it in my own words.<p>3. Come back a few hours or day later and summarize the summary.<p>4. Use this as the basis for cards to load into Anki.<p>It isn&#x27;t about building a massive repository of facts, and you can do plenty with just steps 1-3 without ever using Spaced Repetition, but the reason I fell in love with spaced repetition and have jumped on it so heavily is that I&#x27;ve done steps 1-3 with a lot of information and subjects, and over time have forgotten all but the most basic things about them. This makes me feel as if part of my time or life was wasted, because if I have to revist something again latter like Sorting Algorithms it feels like starting over. Whereas things I have started to use spaced repetition with, I retain the fundamentals the &quot;outline&quot; of the subject for much longer, and if I have to revisit it I feel much more familiar because to paraphrase Piotr Wozniak. The things we remember well are things that are well located&#x2F;connected within our knowledge tree.<p>For those IT people out there as well the other thing spaced repetition and especially Anki is super useful for is learning how to use your tools more effectively because it helps you to remember those features and tricks that you don&#x27;t use often but super speed things up. For example I used grep for a long time, I often found myself having to hit up the man page, or the DDG if I needed to do something unusual, or more often I&#x27;d end up trying to cobble something together with the tools I had. I reviewed a &quot;most useful flags&quot; in grep page a few months back and decided to Ankify it. I am now an order of magnitude more proficient with grep because I can quickly recall the flag or option I need to provide to do something wonky with it when I need to, simply because I remember a relatively obscure feature, that I don&#x27;t use often and would&#x27;ve forgotten otherwise.<p>Finally in conclusion<p>The 4 states that made up the Austro-Hungarian Empire were Boznia-Herzgovania, Croatia-Slavonia, The Kingdom of Hungry and Cieslenthia. Because sometimes memorizing one or two random facts just makes life more interesting.
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chadlavi将近 3 年前
Anyone recommend an iOS app for this? There are a ton of kinda sketchy looking ones in the App Store.
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tpoacher将近 3 年前
I&#x27;m a fan of spaced repetition too and have incorporated Anki in my life in more ways than simple memorization.<p>But calling it &quot;infinite recall&quot; is a bit misleading. Improved long-term retention at the cost of minimal unintrusive prompting is probably closer.
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dinobones将近 3 年前
TLDR I know how to use latex and took calc 2, I want to look smart on the internet.