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Workplace surveillance is coming for you

382 点作者 anonymfus超过 2 年前

39 条评论

avg_dev超过 2 年前
Damn, I had some fairly old opinion of Doctorow where I disliked him for some reason or other, but I am definitely revising that. I thought this was a great article.<p>I am certain “bossware” will accelerate the downfall of already shitty workplaces.<p>Very happy to hear Amazon is doing away with it. Strongly hope their workers unionize anyway. What kind of employer nickle-and-dimes a worker’s bathroom breaks? Not a good one, that’s for damn sure.<p>I used to see these job postings on LinkedIn for Crossover for Work. I was intrigued by the claim of $400yr salary. Glad I didn’t end up working there. Thanks but no thanks, I am not going to work actively oppressing already downtrodden workers. A quick search turned up this fascinating article as well: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@whistler_12777&#x2F;heres-why-crossover-is-a-scam-78f2e867b3a0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@whistler_12777&#x2F;heres-why-crossover-is-a-...</a><p>Fuck bossware. Fuck people who work to actively oppress others. Humanity for all, value of life for each and every person out there.<p>Rant over. Thanks for the link.
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skyfaller超过 2 年前
On workplace surveillance &#x2F; &quot;bossware&quot;:<p>&gt; Mazzoli seems to have either not used his product, or, if he did, did so under conditions where he was in charge of it – using it the way an athlete might use a stopwatch to time their own sprints, and not the way a boss might: to decide whether to dock your pay or fire you.<p>&gt; This inability to understand the difference between using a technology and having the same technology used against you is endemic to the industry.<p>I think this is a key failure of understanding for the &quot;tech is neither good nor bad!&quot; camp: just as the Death Star clearly was never going to be used for mining planetoids, it&#x27;s very clear how workplace surveillance tech will be used to harm workers, if nothing else because of how it is currently being used. Continuing to work on such tech just because it could theoretically be used for non-evil purposes is morally bankrupt, and something the industry needs to establish ethical standards to prevent.
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mattnewton超过 2 年前
I’ve recently watched Brazil, and the film has one of the most chilling dystopian views I’ve ever seen because it’s easy to see yourself as part of the machine doing your best just trying to get by.<p>Similarly, I can see how the people working in this software slipped into this- they identified a need in the market with WFH, tried prototypes that were well received on the market, and keep iterating. Many of them legitimately are interested in time tracking and optimization, but of course the market for personal tools like that is very small and lots of employers want to pay you for this because they want more productive employees. Meanwhile the people buying them don’t really know what they are buying, they want to believe they have found a solution to the problem they are terrified of, employees pretending to work and milking them. And the employees exposed to it aren’t in a position of power to change it. And next thing you know we have a dystopian monster with enough funding to be responsible for people’s jobs itself, where no one individual has incentives to buck the curve or much ability to fight back.<p>What’s the solution then? Doctorow mentions unions, and I’d agree that could work. I think there must be another faction to join that doesn’t ruin you, something to compete with the monolith in case the monolith gets sick in this way. Being able to quit and find somewhere else only works if that somewhere else is mostly differentiated by the fact that it doesn’t do these programs you disagree with- many people will put up with this and worse if there is a large pay differential between it and the next option, or if they would have to move and uproot themselves. And if a government gets sick in this way it might not let you quit the country. You have to be able to form collective groups that can bargain with the behemoth, like a union, or political party, or other action that relies on people for it’s power and not capital. That’s one reason why money in politics is so worrying to me, because the way I see it, it messes with this crucial release valve of political action.
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bheadmaster超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m currently reading &quot;The Tyranny of Metrics&quot; which provides a decent analysis of how over-measuring things that don&#x27;t have anything to do with the real goal often serves as a deterrent to real progress.<p>What managers want to know is <i>how much do their workers contribute to the success of the company</i>. What they measure is <i>how much time do workers spend doing X</i>. They&#x27;re completely glossing over the middle step of <i>how does the time spent doing X contribute to the success of the company</i>, which is usually taken as some kind of linear equation.<p>Over-measurement is often worse than not measuring anything at all.
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tgtweak超过 2 年前
Has a similar experience with upwork once where the contractor (who are screen recorded by upwork to make sure they&#x27;re &quot;working&quot;) would just spend large amounts of time scrolling up and down on the IDE looking at source code - literally hours - to look busy and keep the meter rolling.<p>If you can&#x27;t measure output, there is no point in measuring input.
ivraatiems超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m all for privacy and I cringe at the idea of workplace surveillance of the type described. That said, this article is loaded with false comparisons and poor analogies and just doesn&#x27;t make its point very well. In general, it confuses &quot;The Bad Government want to intentionally surveil you&quot; with &quot;idiot corporations chasing profits incidentally surveil you and think you&#x27;re enough of an idiot to swallow it&quot;.<p>&gt; 20 years ago, if you were eating your dinner under the unblinking eye of a video-camera, it was because you were in a supermax prison.<p>Or a shopping mall. Or an airport. Or a convenience store. Or the lobby of a hotel. Or a bank. Or about a million other places.<p>&gt; Now, thanks to &quot;luxury surveillance,&quot; you can get the same experience in your middle-class home with your Google, Apple or Amazon &quot;smart&quot; camera. Those cameras climbed the curve, going from prisons to schools to workplaces to homes.<p>This is a fundamentally inaccurate comparison. Nobody is forcing anyone to get a &quot;smart&quot; camera. I don&#x27;t own one and I never will. Mandatory surveillance at work or in public is not the same issue as mandatory surveillance in private. This also totally ignores the fact that people aren&#x27;t buying surveillance devices <i>because</i> they surveil. They&#x27;re buying them for other reasons. Also, there&#x27;s no &quot;Them&quot; out in the world making this all happen. It&#x27;s natural evolution as technologies evolve and change. There&#x27;s no conspiracy, just a lot of not particularly bright ideas colliding at once.<p>What we <i>should</i> be talking about are all the forms of surveillance people <i>don&#x27;t</i> opt into - abuse of the cameras on your phone, laptop, etc. The scary thing, to me, is not &quot;what will this technology you chose to acquire do when working as intended&quot; but &quot;how will forces you can&#x27;t control subvert the things you have for other reasons.&quot;
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TheRealDunkirk超过 2 年前
&gt; &quot;Office 365 went from being an online version of Microsoft Office to being a bossware delivery-system.&quot;<p>I feel like a fool. I watch Microsoft like a hawk, and I didn&#x27;t even know about this. Every time I think I&#x27;m too cynical about a FAANG company -- and Microsoft in particular -- I find that I haven&#x27;t been nearly cynical enough.
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antman超过 2 年前
Not that easy in EU:<p>&quot;instead of monitoring individual usage, employers can monitor aggregate levels of usage and send general reminders to staff. If excessive private use persists, monitoring can be increased in line with the defined rules of the organisation, for example to specifically target particular suspicions&quot; those rules should also be made public to the employees<p>Additionally staff should be made aware and formally comment on any subjective interpretation of data for their evaluation.<p>Also if using ML the also should be published and be explainable ML<p>Also EY says monitoring only for &quot;legitimate reasons&quot; which is a legal murky area.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edps.europa.eu&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;reference-library&#x2F;private-use-electronic-communications-workplace_en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edps.europa.eu&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;refer...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edps.europa.eu&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;reference-library&#x2F;evaluation-staff_en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;edps.europa.eu&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;data-protection&#x2F;refer...</a>
asdajksah2123超过 2 年前
&gt; Kraemer discovered that the only way to avoid wage-theft was to do &quot;mindless busywork&quot; that produced the clicks that her bossware demanded, even if it got in the way of her work.<p>Warning: Potential Severance spoilers ahead.<p>I finished watching Severance S1, and one of the open questions is what work the innies are actually doing. And reading this article it strikes me that the Severance work is the ideal culmination of the worker tracking + Goodhart&#x27;s law cycle.<p>You make # of clicks a metric, so then the best performers are those who optimize for # of clicks, and so an AI trying to improve work efficiency by emulating what the best performers are doing rewards nonsensical clicking over actual work, and that cycle continues until you end up with something like the Severance job, which involves nothing but click and dragging numbers into 1 of a few bins based on how you &quot;feel&quot; about the numbers. At the same time the innies are told that what they are doing is extremely important.<p>YOu have the perfect combination of mindless work, which is not entirely monotonous (because you have to go by your &quot;feeling&quot;, which would not be the case if you just had to repeatedly drag 1 number to the same bin) and at the same time you&#x27;re motivated because you&#x27;re convinced you&#x27;re participating in a great good. This way you maximize the measured busywork output while still preventing your employees from immediately burning out.
dmitriid超过 2 年前
&gt; Successful shitty tech rollouts start with people you can abuse with impunity (prisoners, kids, migrants, etc) and then work their way up the privilege gradient.<p>There&#x27;s an election coming up in Sweden.<p>One of the parties is literally advertising their platform with &quot;more security cameras on our streets&quot; (Moderaterna), and every party is keen to expand police power to have more surveillance and wiretapping without prior criminal suspicions (at least according to the &quot;Election compass&quot; on SVT: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;valkompass.svt.se&#x2F;2022" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;valkompass.svt.se&#x2F;2022</a>)
terracatta超过 2 年前
As an infosec person, I&#x27;m trying to get us disentangled from this mess. Lots of orgs install surveillance under the guise of security reqs, but let&#x27;s be honest, they are doing it because they&#x27;re afraid folks aren&#x27;t working. IMO this stuff hurts the security team&#x27;s mission.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;honest.security" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;honest.security</a>
chaostheory超过 2 年前
Surprised that no one mentioned this yet in the top comments, but isn’t Microsoft one of the top purveyors of workplace surveillance since MS Office is so dominant?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.computerweekly.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;252521757&#x2F;Microsoft-Office-365-has-ability-to-spy-on-workers" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.computerweekly.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;252521757&#x2F;Microsoft-Offi...</a><p>I know telemetry services eat up a lot of resources in my work laptop from time to time.
SilverBirch超过 2 年前
&gt;The bossware problem is a boss problem, in other words.<p>I think this is basically the core. Bossware, like all technology is essentially about increasing efficiency. If your boss is shit, this technology is going to make them far more effective at being shit.<p>They aren&#x27;t just going to do all the traditional things that make them shit - unclear goals, over-rewarding presenteeism, being sexist, racist or misogynist. Now they&#x27;re going to do all those things but a lot more effectively.<p>Maybe in general this is a good thing, it&#x27;s going to increase the gap between good bosses and bad bosses and that will in the end cause the good bosses to outperform the bad bossess and the bad bosses&#x27; will be identified, or at the least the companies that have bad bosses will be outperformed.<p>I would say the problem of this bossware is actually worse in schools and prisons - because those environments lack the same feedback paths that regulate this.
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Havoc超过 2 年前
Microsoft’s moves in this regard strike me as particularly evil. By packaging it into their product and rolling it out by default they’re helping normalize it.<p>For now the parts that are enabled by default (Daily digest etc) seem to only be visible to the user and announce that fact prominently.<p>But that does a lot to shift the conversation and acclimatise users to tracking. The jump for the hr module to be enabled is already much reduced vs installing 3rd party spyware software
rightbyte超过 2 年前
I like the term &quot;bossware&quot;. I think I will use it the next time I wiggle the mouse to make my Teams status green again.
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nixpulvis超过 2 年前
I believe in many states it&#x27;s illegal for you to be recorded at work. I&#x27;m not sure how so many places are getting around this. If the claim is that it&#x27;s audio vs video, then I say that&#x27;s a bunk argument. A) we can reconstruct some audio from video (lip reading software), and B) a lot of what would have been &quot;verbal&quot; conversations now happen in text chats, recorded by cameras perfectly in the clear.<p>Not to mention that I&#x27;m always a bit nervous typing passwords into a computer under the eyes of recording machines.
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mindslight超过 2 年前
&gt; <i>or, more formally, &quot;any target becomes a measurement&quot; (AKA Goodhart&#x27;s Law).</i><p>nit: it&#x27;s better stated as &quot;any measurement becomes a target&quot;.<p>Reading the article, I had a pang of hope. If it&#x27;s really as anti-effectual as described, perhaps just everyone needs to buy mouse jiggling dongles and the push behind the immediate trend will lose momentum.<p>Or really, it&#x27;s just another step in the corporate-Keynesian make-busy-work economy that has gobbled up most of our productivity gains for decades.
rvz超过 2 年前
&gt; Now, thanks to &quot;luxury surveillance,&quot; you can get the same experience in your middle-class home with your Google, Apple or Amazon &quot;smart&quot; camera. Those cameras climbed the curve, going from prisons to schools to workplaces to homes.<p>All thanks to Big Tech, and by the looks of it if we don&#x27;t do something to counter against this, we will also own nothing and we will be very happy under the eyes the technocratic elite.
donatj超过 2 年前
&gt; realized that she could juke her stats by closing tickets prematurely by marking them &quot;did not respond&quot;<p>Very recently I contacted support on a Saturday around 5pm. They replied Sunday night after midnight when I was asleep. My support ticket was closed around 5am as &quot;did not respond&quot;. Between the reply and closing my ticket, I was asleep the entire time. I have never been so furious.
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thenerdhead超过 2 年前
I feel like life finds a way even if it went down this path. People will create bots that randomize opening up a list of programs you use and make various gestures to throw off any tracking tool.<p>I’m less worried about the Orwellian bossware and more about the Huxleyian warning of an abundance of so much information that bosses can hardly decipher what work is even being done.
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swayvil超过 2 年前
Here&#x27;s an interesting pattern.<p>You eat a banana. It&#x27;s delicious and nutritious. Cool.<p>You read about a fellow who ate a banana. Ah, such a fond reference.<p>You read about your banana-research employees. Taste, nutrition and fond references are furthest from your mind. You only care about your sales numbers.<p>Abstraction=progressive numbness.
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jwie超过 2 年前
The surveillance for higher status workers is more about always having a reason to manage out a worker more than actually optimizing anything, like they do with lower status workers.<p>We have this problem in the US armed forces rather acutely. Everyone is breaking many rules and regulations daily but the chain of command does nothing about the vast majority of infractions. Reserving enforcement for when they feel like it, for reasons having nothing to do with the actual rules.<p>This is anarcho-tyranny.<p>As a people manager in software I fight this kind of stuff, and I feel like only the most morally compromised managers push it.<p>It’s never an honest attempt to optimize the work. It’s a way to force you to provide evidence for your dismissal.
avg_dev超过 2 年前
One question about the article. What does the phrase “soup the negatives” mean?
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Joel_Mckay超过 2 年前
A company is like a tiny country... Despotism requires an authoritarian regime maintain sustained intelligence campaigns against its own citizens. Primarily, this is necessitated as internal propaganda or perceived surface culture is eventually indistinguishable from reality. Thus, the authoritarians must grip tighter to maintain information asymmetry over an imaginary threat of their own creation, as eventually these folks undermine the credibility of leadership.<p>Third party software that supports such schemes though arms-length lack of accountability, simply lower the cost of increasing the granularity of intelligence collection and control. However, it doesn&#x27;t solve the foundational problems of organizations dooming themselves with unsustainable policies, or the statistical nonsense business intelligence companies produce.<p>My advice, &quot;vote with your feet&quot; and keep seeking to a better life. ;)
m0llusk超过 2 年前
Holy fuck. I just want stuff. Shouldn&#x27;t there be an option for buying stuff and not treating people like garbage?
photochemsyn超过 2 年前
Note also Theranos executives were using similar email monitoring tools to make sure low-level employees weren&#x27;t copying emails to private folders (because executives knew Theranos was engaging in fraud and didn&#x27;t want their emails showing up in criminal or civil court cases later on). These are tools like Nagios, Zabbix, etc. which allow application and data movement monitoring.<p>Some will argue these are necessary security tools, but in reality if the executives are so afraid of their employees ratting them out or selling their data to Russian hackers or whatever, then they&#x27;ve got larger problems with their organization (again, see Theranos).
toss1超过 2 年前
&gt;&gt;Curve Reaches Apogee<p>Just because it is on an upward trajectory and higher than ever before does not mean that it is at apogee — it could just as well continue climbing to greater heights, which in this case seems rather likely.<p>The repeated theme of measuring things like continuous keystrokes that are actually <i>counterproductive</i> to accomplishing key tasks is the essence of bad management. Extended through an organization to far, it could literally kill it. Getting the key info might be tricky, but it seems worthwhile to create a stock fund of companies NOT using worker spyware and shorting companies who use it extensively.
A4ET8a8uTh0超过 2 年前
&lt;&lt; The irony, of course, is that bossware is now coming for execs, and, what&#x27;s more, they lack the engineering skills to optimize their work so they can get a high score and do the job, so they have to settle for just getting the score – and hang the job itself.<p>I will believe it when I see it in action. If there is one thing that remain constant is the golden rule ( &quot;He who has gold makes the rules&quot; ). And boss class has the gold.
anonporridge超过 2 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marshallbrain.com&#x2F;manna1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marshallbrain.com&#x2F;manna1</a>
pnf超过 2 年前
I can&#x27;t recall the name of it but there was a pre-pandemic startup for remote teams where it took a picture of you at your desk every few minutes to share with your team, supposedly to achieve less lonely remote-only workplaces. They marketed it as pro-worker, lol.
nullc超过 2 年前
Manna[1] was a cautionary tail, not a roadmap. Some people didn&#x27;t get the memo.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marshallbrain.com&#x2F;manna1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marshallbrain.com&#x2F;manna1</a>
fareesh超过 2 年前
I would just use another computer and automate some BS on the surveilled one.
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jksmith超过 2 年前
Seemingly far more insidious to me is surveillance justified by business to monitor remote work.
gbro3n超过 2 年前
We get what we tolerate.
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donatj超过 2 年前
The authors own point seemingly being that this will negatively affect companies bottom lines in the long run in the name of chasing stats seems to undermine the point of this being &quot;late stage capitalism&quot;.<p>If this does actually negatively affect bottom lines, it&#x27;s bad business, end of story. Capitalism seeks to optimize output and if this is truly failing to do so, it&#x27;s not a capitalist pursuit.
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agileAlligator超过 2 年前
Does anyone else not like the design of this website or is it just me? I find the articles fascinating, but the design I don&#x27;t jive with...
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patientplatypus超过 2 年前
I find it so weird. Aren&#x27;t there any bosses that say &quot;Yeah, fuck you we&#x27;re not doing that.&quot; That&#x27;s the point of a boss. If I were in charge of a bunch of programmers and a mandate came down from on high to rate programmers based on commits or keystrokes, my first response would be &quot;Eat shit.&quot; and my second response would be &quot;No, really, I&#x27;m not treating my people like dogs. Eat shit.&quot;
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whoomp12342超过 2 年前
lol, bring it. tech industry is still strong, I wont tolerate such behavior
sudden_dystopia超过 2 年前
Quit reading at “large stage capitalism”. Such a bs term. This is not capitalism, this is techno corporate fascism. That is what is failing and causing misery. And the more we gaslight capitalism, the further down the totalitarian path we are going to go.
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