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Exploring Euclideon's Unlimited Detail Engine

119 点作者 timknauf超过 13 年前

20 条评论

dmbaggett超过 13 年前
The article sensationally positions this as some incredible breakthrough that the "old guard" of gaming is trying to suppress. More likely, the code works, but has limitations -- the same limitations that led old guard luminaries like Carmack to defer the idea for another few years.<p>As others have pointed out, voxel-based games have been around for a long time; a recent example is the whimsical "3D Dot Game Hero" for PS3, in which they use the low-res nature of the voxel world as a fun design element.<p>Voxel-based approaches have huge advantages ("infinite" detail, background details that are deformable at the pixel level, simpler simulation of particle-based phenomena like flowing water, etc.) but they'll only win once computing power reaches an important crossover point. That point is where rendering an organic world a voxel at a time looks better than rendering zillions of polygons to approximate an organic world. Furthermore, much of the effort that's gone into visually simulating real-world phenomena (read the last 30 years of Siggraph conference proceedings) will mostly have to be reapplied to voxel rendering. Simply put: lighting, caustics, organic elements like human faces and hair, etc. will have to be "figured out all over again" for the new era of voxel engines. It will therefore likely take a while for voxel approaches to produce results that look as good, even once the crossover point of level of detail is reached.<p>I don't mean to take anything away from the hard and impressive coding work this team has done, but if they had more academic background, they'd know that much of what they've "pioneered" has been studied in tremendous detail for two decades. Hanan Samet's treatise on the subject tells you absolutely everything you need to know, and more: (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Multidimensional-Structures-Kaufmann-Computer/dp/0123694469/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#38;qid=1322140227&#38;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Multidimensional-Structure...</a>) and even goes into detail about the application of these spatial data structures to other areas like machine learning. Ultimately, Samet's book is all about the "curse of dimensionality" and how (and how much) data structures can help address it.<p>In the late 90s at Naughty Dog, I used Samet's ideas (octrees in particular) for collision detection in the Crash Bandicoot games. In those games, the world was visually rendered with polygons, but physically modeled -- for collision detection purposes, at least -- with an octree. The nice thing about octrees is that they are very simple to work with and self-calibrate their resolution dynamically, making them very space-efficient. Intuitively, a big region of empty air tends to be represented by a handful of huge cubes, while the individual fronds of a fern get coated with dozens or hundreds of tiny cubes, because there's more surface detail to account for in the latter example.<p>I think the crossover point I mentioned earlier will come when GPUs become general-purpose enough to allow massively parallel voxel rendering implementations. That's what surprised me most about this article: they crow that it's a CPU-only technology... why? GPUs excel at tasks involving vast amounts of relatively simple parallel computation.<p>Prior to the crossover point, we'll see a bunch of cool games that use voxel rendering primarily for gameplay reasons. These games will look chunky compared to their polygonal peers, but will offer unique experiences. Minecraft is a good example. (I'm assuming it's voxel-based, but don't really know.)
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babebridou超过 13 年前
What I don't like with "Unlimited Details" is that Dell refuses to say what the engine can't do yet. We know it's a work in progress. We (the internet) are excited about it because it's an experiment that's on scale with what we could expect from that branch of 3D graphics technology. Trillions of atoms, whatever. Show us what's still in progress because the internet is skeptical about this, this and this.<p>Hacking reflexion by duplicating the scene is a good way to start, because no one can say whether it's a good or a bad solution to a non-trivial problem - it gets the job done for now - but can you have multiple coexisting versions of the world? like a vertical mirror, a horizontal body of water and an underwater section?<p>To Dell: just stop handwaving the questions already, we get it that you ignored the state of the art and built your own thing, just tell us what it can't do yet, show us your current progress and you'll be met with much less skepticism, and even help, even if you keep your trade secrets, at least show us your specs! You won't be struck down by lightning if you talk - no one ever died from reinventing/copying the wheel and making it so good that the wheel can fly.
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wladimir超过 13 年前
See also the gigavoxel research by an ex-colleague of mine: <a href="http://maverick.inria.fr/Members/Cyril.Crassin/" rel="nofollow">http://maverick.inria.fr/Members/Cyril.Crassin/</a> . This looks very similar, and is probably an extension of it...
Derbasti超过 13 年前
As soon as I see animated objects moving about in a dynamically lit world, I will start to believe that Euclideon is on to something.<p>Maybe there could be some middle ground like in the old voxel days, where you would have a static (unlimited detail) background world and some traditional, polygon-based actors in the foreground. Looking at any modern game, just about everything on the screen is constantly moving, so color me sceptical even on that idea.<p>Also, I would like to know how they do lighting. It looks like they might use precomputed highlights and shadows. Needless to say that this would not be of much use for dynamic lighting.
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nodata超过 13 年前
Previous discussion:<p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2837948" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2837948</a><p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2840543" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2840543</a>
rkalla超过 13 年前
I am surprisd by the lack of interest in the search algorithm Dell proposes he designed and is using.<p>Searching such a large problem space for 1 to 2 million results 25x a second is amazingly impressive... This is what i am most curious about at the moment... Also how he is storing the full voxel point data for any given world that needs to be searchd in real time. Replicated data or not (i.e. similar to GIF color data deduplication) you still have location data for every voxel position or offsets or something that still results in a hellacious amount of data that needs to be searched efficiently.<p>Havent seen details from Dell or others on either of these aspects that I feel are cornerstones to the engine.
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tobiasu超过 13 年前
Hmm, what's so amazing about it? It's a voxel graphic engine, of course it's going to have great detail and no polygons (duh). That's not new. Commanche had this in 1992...<p>I'm not at all an expert in this area, can someone who is explain what the downsides of voxel graphics are? There must be some serious problems with it, because the technology is well known.<p>Is there something new that makes this particular engine stand out above the previous engines?
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darklajid超过 13 年前
Is something like "GPUs used to be fighting one another for more power, memory, and so forth, but now they have their languages like _Kuda_" (Page 6) just a random typo or a reason to believe that someone didn't do his homework before typing this down?<p>I'd love to see this released, but the article was far too positive and the tone read too much like marketing to me. Some careful, not too aggressive words at the introduction and blessing after blessing afterwards, sprinkled with the seemingly unbiased author's impression and description of a very nice and professional guy. Mhhhh...<p>Edit: Just saw that user 'Causification' already said something similar, albeit with a good amount of more emotion. Still, I'm going to keep this here as a personal impression of someone that has no clue about graphic engines in general, i.e. my layman's reaction after reading the article.
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femto超过 13 年前
What do people make of the patent history? Eight lapsed applications and one withdrawn over a 15 year period. Is that unusual?<p><a href="http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do?queryString=bruce+dell&#38;resultsPerPage=" rel="nofollow">http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do...</a>
sjm超过 13 年前
I'd really like to know how much memory is being used per unique model. Until we see more than a couple different models being re-used everywhere, I'm going to stay skeptical. Also his reasoning for the lack of variety of '3 weeks before Gamescom' sounds a bit BS to me, as this video has been around for much longer than Euclideon's last media-spree: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSvptZCJGyI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSvptZCJGyI</a>. You would think they would have created at least one demo with a larger variety of objects by this point.<p>I'm also very suspicious of all this recent positive coverage of Euclideon. There was a pretty suspect feature on Euclideon on an Australian game review show called Good Game a couple weeks back, talking with this same guy, and not really making much mention of the skepticism involved (or at all if I remember correctly), and as far as I know no outspoken skeptics have been able to get their hands on it. The clip from Good Game can be seen here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ndZ8ETbqU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ndZ8ETbqU</a>
Tloewald超过 13 年前
The fact they are financially backed by the Australian Government (which has an approximately 0% track record as a VC) seals their doom. If they were in the US they'd have to figure out a way to produce something commercial or at least potentially commercial, now they can burn through $2M while fading into irrelevance (if not there already).
mkramlich超过 13 年前
Voxel engines are "new" in the same sense that social networks are "new" from the POV of someone who remembers using modem-based BBSes and Unix Usenet groups back in the 80's. Meaning: mostly old, maybe new in some small subtle corner aspect of it, or some twist. But not really new.
forbes超过 13 年前
The awesome Aussie show 'Good Game' did a story on Unlimited Detail recently: <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/video/default.htm?src=/tv/goodgame/video/xml/20111108_2030.xml&#38;item=05" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/video/default.htm?src=/tv/...</a>
tluyben2超过 13 年前
After reading all the comments it seems there are people who are playing with this kind of technology. Is there any open source code which can be studied?
argimenes超过 13 年前
If this software is a hoax -- and fair enough, it sounds too good to be true -- can someone explain how they were able to fake it in the live demo? I understand that this is supposed to be impossible, cranks often claim the establishment is 'suppressing' them, etc., etc., but if this snake oil peddling, then HOW did they do it? The demo LOOKS real.
meric超过 13 年前
There's supposed to be 42 trillion "voxels" in that demo.<p>If each "voxel" took only a single bit to store, this works out to require [42 trillion / (1024 * 1024 * 1024 * 8) = 4 889.44352] gigabytes of memory.<p>How do you store that while you calculate the screen pixels? Modern PCs only have 4 or 8 gigabytes of RAM!
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singular超过 13 年前
Whether or not a voxel engine is the right way go, or even whether it does what it claims to do, I think Dell should be commended for actually going out and trying to do the thing - it's an amazing achievement to actually get somewhere with it.
baby超过 13 年前
way to write a lot about it without really talking about it... tl;dr anyone?
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ldar15超过 13 年前
"... he was forced to solve the riddles himself, rather than plucking the accepted solution from a textbook ..."<p>The thing is, the textbooks also have all the things that didn't work or don't work well. Even some educated graphics programmers often fail to understand that representing 3D objects is just a data representation and transformation problem. Sure, a hard one, but there's nothing magic about it. Representing the data as a bag of "atoms" instead of polygons just isn't a breakthrough. The problem is still spacial search. The problem is still a simulation of optical physics. Graphics is just an optimization problem now. Attend an IEEE conference and maybe 5% of papers will be new theory, the rest will be about effective optimization techniques.<p>When someone comes to you and says "I have this awesome idea because I didn't read anybody else's ideas", just walk away.
Cyph0n超过 13 年前
Interesting article. Judging by Dell's (the CEO) calm attitude towards "haters", I personally believe that he truly has something revolutionary to offer.<p>Only time will tell though.
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