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I argue that studying the history of philosophy is philosophically unhelpful

94 点作者 dynm超过 2 年前

38 条评论

pron超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t understand the island analogy. While the external world is disjoint from the island, our world -- with its scientific knowledge of contemporary physics and biology and astronomy and psychology, mathematics and logic and, of course, the internet -- is a <i>product</i> of our history. In other words, while it&#x27;s true that history didn&#x27;t have the internet, it is also the reason that we do.<p>People like Frege and Russell made certain choices in the design of formal logic because they were influenced by Leibniz, who, in turn, arranged things in a certain way because he was influenced by Aristotle. If you don&#x27;t know what Aristotle said, it&#x27;s hard to understand Leibniz, and if you don&#x27;t know Leibniz, it&#x27;s hard to understand Frege and Russell.
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terkozz超过 2 年前
I couldn&#x27;t disagree more. By studying history of philosophy you learn a lot about the process itself, no matter if the conclusions might seem irrelevant or outdated by the current standard enforced by new contributions. After all, I find it quite naive you will not make the very same mistakes that your predecessor did, haven&#x27;t you been somewhat cognizant of their work and perspective.
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crazygringo超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m not going to take it as far as the author, but I will say that philosophy does seem to be particularly unique in organizing its entire subject matter essentially historically by thinker and around original texts, as opposed to the kind of modern taxonomy and conceptual vocabulary employed not just in other sciences, but even social sciences.<p>Philosophers throw around author-turned-into-adjective terms like Kantian, Hegelian, Aristotelian, Humean, Hobbesian, Benthamite, and so forth as frustratingly vague substitutions for the actual ideas meant. (Kant wrote a lot, which part are you referring to?) Intro biology and political science textbooks are all organized similarly with more or less the same content, while different intro philosophy textbooks often seem like they&#x27;re covering different fields. (E.g. one author believes the main questions in philosophy are metaphysics and logic, while another gives most space to ethics and religion.) Why? Because there is no widely agreed-upon of what the really important issues in philosophy even <i>are</i>. (Just look at continental vs. analytic philosophy.) So in the absence of any kind of consensus organization&#x2F;taxonomy and terminology to go with that, it all just reverts to... original texts and author surnames. It&#x27;s organized by history.<p>(And even when modern thinkers try to come up with conceptual-sounding names, it turns into a confusing mess. Try to remember which one is &quot;contractualism&quot; and which one is &quot;contractarianism&quot;. Or is there a difference between &quot;morals&quot; and &quot;ethics&quot;? Or why do some writers call it &quot;utilitarianism&quot; while others call it &quot;consequentialism&quot;? When you say &quot;resentment&quot;, which author&#x27;s usage of &quot;ressentiment&quot; are you <i>actually</i> referring to? I usually know the answers to these questions, but they sure are confusing when you&#x27;re learning it as an undergrad. It&#x27;s actually <i>clearer</i> if you say &quot;Hobbesian&quot; rather than &quot;contractarian&quot;, or &quot;Nietszchean&quot; so I can understand which type of &quot;resentment&quot;.)<p>Learning the history of philosophy <i>is</i> helpful... but it does seem somewhat strange that while you can learn math or biology without needing to learn the history or ever read a single &quot;original historical text&quot;... you <i>can&#x27;t</i> learn philosophy without learning its history. And so that certainly leads to the question... <i>should</i> you be able to? Would that improve the study of philosophy?
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DharmaPolice超过 2 年前
While I share a loathing for everything having to be a study of what someone else said a long time ago, I think it&#x27;s mainly in the areas where we&#x27;ve not made much definite progress that this phenomenon happens most. Only historians bother with Aristotle&#x27;s physics today because we have something definitively superior that we can prove is more correct than his model. Same for biology (arguably his key area of interest).<p>But when it comes to ethics I don&#x27;t think we can say the same thing. I&#x27;m not even sure for some areas of politics. When I read Thomas Hobbes Leviathan I found myself thinking &quot;Wow, at least no thinking person will ever defend that philosophy again&quot; and then a couple of decades later Steven Pinker did just that.<p>We&#x27;re really not making much progress in the humanities. I&#x27;d like to think we&#x27;re done (intellectually speaking) with chattel slavery as a concept but who knows. Grant and Sherman made bigger contributions to that argument than a whole swathe of philosophers either way.
ycombinete超过 2 年前
I haven’t read this paper, but instinctively flinch at any kind of dismissal of the past.<p>I would think this comes down to how we define philosophy. On scientific matters sure Aristotle likely has little to offer; but human nature has not changed <i>at all</i> since Plato, or Siddhartha we’re born.<p>After saying the following I feel that it would be hard for them to argue their point very strongly. So I’m definitely going to read the paper:<p><i>To be perfectly clear: my claim is not that we should not be doing history of philosophy. There are all kinds of reasons why reading and talking about the Critique of Pure Reason or the Republic are worthwhile: studying these seminal texts is an inherently interesting intellectual pursuit; reading them is often tremendously enjoyable; and familiarity with these texts can be very valuable to intellectual historians for the insights into culture, knowledge and morality they may contain. There are thus many excellent reasons to engage with the history of philosophy. Gaining traction on the aforementioned philosophical problems, however, is not one of them. This means that I am not arguing against historians of philosophy and what they do, but against what could be called philosophical historicists, that is, those who seem to think that at least one good method of thinking about knowledge or justice is to study what historical authors have written about knowledge and justice a long time ago. This, I argue, is a mistake.</i>
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dredmorbius超过 2 年前
My first though seeing this was that Peter Adamson, creator of the <i>History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps</i> podcast and book series should respond.<p>He has:<p><i>Re. Hanno Sauer&#x27;s article denying the value of the history of philosophy: it turns out he follows me on Twitter, from which I infer that he was just kidding.</i><p>&lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nitter.kavin.rocks&#x2F;HistPhilosophy&#x2F;status&#x2F;1573235305305571330" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nitter.kavin.rocks&#x2F;HistPhilosophy&#x2F;status&#x2F;15732353053...</a>&gt;<p>I&#x27;m inclined to think that this is all the response that&#x27;s required.<p>(I do find several other comments on this thread on point, notably those by pron &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33008453" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33008453</a>&gt;, terkozz &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33008248" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33008248</a>&gt;, and ougerechny &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33010884" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33010884</a>&gt;)
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conformist超过 2 年前
This paper makes some excellent points, at least directionally - surely the important historical arguments will be representable in a more polished, accessible and condensed form today. And in cases where they aren&#x27;t perhaps that&#x27;s a good filter in its own right? It appears like, maybe vis a vis physical sciences philosophy as an academic discipline has not got quite such a prevalent tradition in producing &quot;tidied up&quot; textbooks?
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ajkjk超过 2 年前
This has always seemed kinda obvious? But I guess... maybe not to professional philosophers?<p>In college there was this clique of philosophy students who were studying all this ancient thought but were (imo) strangely averse to weighing in on the problems of modernity. Like what they were interested in was &#x27;real&#x27; philosophy. Never seemed right to me. That stuff is already baked into the way we think -- that&#x27;s why it was important back then! Today we can barely perceive what it&#x27;s like to _not_ think with it; it&#x27;s &quot;in the water supply&quot;, as it were. The interesting philosophy is in the new ideas that aren&#x27;t settled yet.
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ogurechny超过 2 年前
The article doesn&#x27;t seem to be posted on 1st of April, so I have to conclude that the author does not understand philosophy at all, and swims happily and carelessly in doctrinarianism about “scientific knowledge” instead. A philosopher should be able to see that the linear time and overlaying “progress” is just a transfer of educational imaginary model of physical experiment onto the whole world, and that any thought, no matter what it source is, can only exist in the present moment in someone&#x27;s head. And even in that primitive linear model, every bit of “knowledge” we have is inherited from those horrible, horrible idiots from the past anyway.<p>It would be funny to read something like that for the first time, but the author doesn&#x27;t seem to know that the same approach have been proclaimed (and subsequently ridiculed) for at least 200 years. The irony of ignoring history!<p>Also, it is mentioned that studying other sciences doesn&#x27;t work the same way. Of course it doesn&#x27;t, as for quite some time students haven&#x27;t been sharing any state of mind with people whose portraits hang on the walls. They don&#x27;t even share more than required between themselves, because they are given instant noodle type understanding with famous scientists simply printed on the packaging that results in everything, including theory, becoming applied, and never-ending compartmentalization.
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motohagiography超过 2 年前
&quot;This is an object. Our modern authorities admit they can&#x27;t explain it. Could it be a power struggle? Ancient critical theorists say &#x27;yes.&#x27;&quot; That&#x27;s the level of rigor in the paper and the in the view of history as progress. A house without a foundation is still a house, and an indistinguishable representation from one that has one, but it&#x27;s durability and coherence over time that makes one real and the other a representation.<p>I really don&#x27;t think the author is the first to try throwing out the past, and there were some odd setups in the essay where he expected the &quot;mighty dead&quot; to make a case for themselves today, instead of it being on him to make the case for what he has to improve on them. The underlying view of history as progress and his implied materialist view of epistemic value, I think, isn&#x27;t new.<p>If you substitute ideology for philosophy, then iterate ideological theorems from it, you can produce what are essentially holographic projections of consistent ideas that seem to encompass everything, and the easiest ones are structured like the Ancient Aliens reference above. The genius of that show is that it is as rigorous a critical theory of archeology as any other critical theory, it&#x27;s just that everyone thinks their fancier version is different. It&#x27;s as though we needed Ancient Astronaut Theory to convince us that other critical theories are real.<p>The last century has emphasized some interesting problems that were the consequence of our new ability to simulate and represent much of our experience as artifacts of computation and language, along with critical theories designed as solvents for the artifacts of language, where objects could be decoupled from their meanings, and then re-assigning meaning seemed like just an exercise in power over subjects - but that only works on a certain kind of mind. If you have ever seen an animal react to a magic trick, it&#x27;s the same slight of hand effect on an intellectual level, I think. You can&#x27;t navigate without waypoints, and any new philosophical ideas that are not informed by the foundations are just going to be post-hoc moralizations of exigencies in the present.
spicyusername超过 2 年前
Pretty much everything pre-enlightenment is really smart sounding nonsense. Understanding pre-enlightenment philosophy is mostly just useful as historical or cultural context for how intellectual people thought at the time, or for understanding the path human civilization took to knowing what we know today.<p>Everything after the enlightenment, but before modern biology &#x2F; neuroscience &#x2F; physics, is also really smart sounding nonsense, but is getting closer to something approximating &quot;reality&quot;.<p>Once we get to the naturalist philosophers in the 20th and 21st centuries (many of whom are biologists, physicists, or neuroscientists by training), we start getting some real meat.
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raxxorraxor超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t think it is completely useless, but I hate to build any argument in classical philosophy. No, I do not want to start my argument with Aristoteles and follow the whole chain until I can make a case at some point. Aristoteles is a giant that certainly founded a lot of scientific fields, but the basis of an argument is not improved with a whole theoretical foundation that is artificially attached to the point.<p>I believe the affliction is that because your philosophical case needs to be argued, it is expected to have a foundation in some philosophical root. With allegedly gives it more weight than just another thought.<p>It is sensible to read other philosophers I guess, but I think people should be encouraged to argue on their own.
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Nomentatus超过 2 年前
What is now called and taught as the history of philosophy is not very useful because it&#x27;s not the actual history of philosophy, academic or otherwise. You learn mostly what little of say, 19th century philosophy we now have respect for regardless of whether that century even knew that thinker was alive. The context, mostly of &quot;greats&quot; that we now think are horse dung, is never given. Knowing how thinkers (and the crowds that love them) went badly wrong would be useful, but is rarely taught. Both the now-highly thought of and then-highly-thought-of are worth some attention.
smeagull超过 2 年前
The condition of man hasn&#x27;t fundamentally changed in the past 5000 years.<p>&quot;[...] we do not believe in progress. Progress implies amelioration; but man is always the same, facing a situation which is always changing, and choice remains always a choice in the situation. The moral problem has not changed since the time when it was a choice between slavery and anti-slavery – from the time of the war of Secession, for example, until the present moment when one chooses between the M.R.P. [Mouvement Republicain Poputaire] and the Communists.&quot; ~ Jean-Paul Sartre.
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dr_dshiv超过 2 年前
I dove into the history of “harmony” in philosophy and it was <i>fascinating</i>. Also somewhat disturbing, because the topic seems “out there” for a modern philosophy dept, despite the connections to CS, neuroscience, psychology, physics, economics, etc<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1016&#x2F;j.sheji.2022.01.001" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doi.org&#x2F;10.1016&#x2F;j.sheji.2022.01.001</a> “Harmony in Design: A Synthesis of Literature from Classical Philosophy, the Sciences, Economics, and Design”
nmaley超过 2 年前
I studied philosophy to postgraduate level before having to go out and get a real job. Now in late middle age, I am nearly recovered to the point where I have to agree with the author. I now understand that most philosophy, of ANY age or period, including the present, is useless. But there are counterexamples. Hume is still worth reading, on almost any subject. Many of his ideas have not aged at all. Reason as the slave of the passions, is vs ought, compatibilism on free will all come to mind, as do his deep insights on the connections between ideas (Resemblance, Contiguity, cause and effect). These positions are still held by scientifically literate people, and some of them, like the idea of connections between ideas, I have have actually found useful as guidelines for research in AI. And that&#x27;s without mentioning his influence on political philosophy, which was profound. Hume&#x27;s notion of the social contract continues to shape political debate in ways not many people realise.
prego_xo超过 2 年前
Should we not study old scientists because they had no idea about the concepts we have found recently? Should we no longer study old politics because their climate was different? Should old tactics be disregarded because they used different, weaker weapons than us? Should old art be discarded because they used older theories and didn&#x27;t understand perspective like we do?<p>No.
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mikrl超过 2 年前
The history of philosophy, sure.<p>The history of philosophers, I would disagree.<p>I once saw someone post online that the best way to get into someone’s thought was to read a biography of them. After all, their thought is a reflection of them and the material conditions in which they lived. Their aspirations, tribulations and the potential they saw in a world they wanted to interpret.<p>Sue Prideaux has a good one on Nietzsche and reading about his education really sets the scene for BGE and Zarathustra, which often confused me before. His father’s early death ‘doomed him’ into the mindset that led to his maniacal study of the will to power, and possibly his own early demise.<p>Knowing about Nietzsche’s life makes me appreciate what he was getting at, which is useful if you’re not used to his flowery style. It helped me identify more with him, and against him. I know more of what kind of man he was, and that I am very different.
MonkeyClub超过 2 年前
OK this is a bombastic paper by design, but if falls short on a few things, least of which is conflating &quot;study of history&quot; with &quot;historiography&quot;.<p>Worst of all, he completely misses Gadamer&#x27;s comment regarding the epistemic fruitlessness of philosophizing <i>at all</i> (and not just of studying past philosophers), so in a sense Sauer unwittingly rehashes and expands upon only a partial aspect of that.<p>But he does express a &quot;popular sentiment&quot;, which students of history (and the history of philosophy) will readily discover in any sub-era of modernity (including pomo&#x27;ity), but those who turn their backs to history will think it&#x27;s all new and all of our own devising: namely that &quot;We Know Better&quot;.<p>It&#x27;s the cultural switch: before modernity we considered &quot;the ancients&quot; as unerring sources of truth, after modernity we started seeing through the cracks.<p>All too quick to note how pyramids and parthenons have cracks in them after standing for millennia, but wholly unable to produce something even equally sturdy, if not better.<p>PS: Ah, and by &quot;modernity&quot; I&#x27;m referring to the history of this side of the Enlightenment. E.g. I consider Casaubon&#x27;s 1614 overturning of the presumed antiquity of the Corpus Hermeticum as part of modernity. (But doesn&#x27;t everyone?)
denton-scratch超过 2 年前
I didn&#x27;t get far with this.<p>All philosophy is the history of philosophy, in the sense that you&#x27;re studying the ideas someone had in the past, whether that&#x27;s the recent past or the distant past. The only philosophy that isn&#x27;t history of philosophy is done by a handful of academics, and you can bet they all had a solid grounding in the history of philosophy.<p>I had to do a course on presocratic Greek philosophers. I couldn&#x27;t understand why we had to study the ideas of these people whose ideas were wrong, wrong, wrong - even barmy. But all the interesting Greek philosophers knew and were influenced by the presocratics; Plato, Aristotle, the sceptics, the stoics. And so-called &quot;modern&quot; philosophers all studied these later Greeks.<p>It&#x27;s impossible to engage with contemporary philosophy without studying the moderns, and studying the classical Greek philosophers makes it a lot easier to understand the moderns.<p>I&#x27;m glad the author mentioned Wittgenstein as a &quot;historical&quot; philosopher to whom attention shouldn&#x27;t be paid. I don&#x27;t know how a contemporary philosopher is supposed to approach the philosophy of language and logic without having worked through Wittgenstein and Ayer.
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huetius超过 2 年前
This is a curious paper, as it seems to come at a time when the philosophical postulate of meliorism has been problematized precisely by the trajectory of historical development, which had previously its own criteria of success. It might interest the author to know that this was basically the prediction of Vico, one of the most valuable (and misunderstood) philosophers of the not-so-distant past.
keithnz超过 2 年前
He doesn&#x27;t seem to show anywhere that it is &quot;philosophically unhelpful&quot;. I do think philosophical ideas can be taught with zero historical perspective, but it is a whole extra step to say studying the history of philosophy is unhelpful philosophically. That would have to be demonstrated.
im3w1l超过 2 年前
Humanity has growing approximately exponentially in numbers. Due to the inherent nature of the exponential process it means that a fixed percentage of all people that have ever lived are still alive. This is turn means that the proportional of historical writing to contemporary writing is approximately fixed. With exponential growth, remembering everything or at least everything significant is sort-of viable. But if humanity is about to stabilize in numbers, which would be desirable, at least until we can expand our society beyond Earth, then it means that the proportion of history to contemporary will steadily increase, and a sort of willful amnesia will become more important. With fixed resources we will have a fixed ability to remember and most pick and choose.<p>And that&#x27;s why we have to colonize space. To post-pone amnesia.
freddealmeida超过 2 年前
I found learning the history of philosophy tied to the history of science was wonderful in helping understand more complex thought. In much the same way as Hume&#x27;s missing blue or the ontologies of other great minds. I couldn&#x27;t imagine learning another way but then maybe that is the point.
tgv超过 2 年前
So it&#x27;s just that studying what Aristotle said about (most of) empirical knowledge is useless. It&#x27;s not terribly productive, I agree, but then again, so is studying what Derrida has said about it. If you want to know about empirical sciences, it&#x27;s best to study the subject itself.
jovial_cavalier超过 2 年前
If philosophy is useful (which it may not be), then studying the history of philosophy is useful.<p>This is like saying &quot;Why bother studying Newton? He didn&#x27;t even know about relativity!&quot; You study Newton because it&#x27;s a simple model and motivates what comes after.
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alasr超过 2 年前
IMO studying the history of <i>any</i> subject, you&#x27;re interested in, is really useful as it helps understanding why things are the way they&#x27;re in the present.<p>Now, regarding the subject of the &#x27;history of philosophy&#x27;, what are the contents and how they&#x27;re structured is a different kind of problem. And, unfortunately, it&#x27;s not limited to the &#x27;history of philosophy&#x27; as we face similar kind of challenge when studying other important subjects.<p>This challenge can&#x27;t be avoided all the times but needs a systematic approach; otherwise, one might easily commit the (proverbial) mistake of &quot;throwing the baby out with the bathwater&quot;.
a0zU超过 2 年前
That&#x27;s interesting, but there&#x27;s actually this other philosopher who published a very similar idea sometime around ~1921? I can&#x27;t remember his reasoning(something about the world being a collection of facts) but I&#x27;ve heard that his thesis actually <i>entirely rejected</i> continental philosophy on similar claims to your own and singlehandedly began the shift towards the analytic philosophy that you seem to be so partial to. I think his name sounded similar to Wittingstein?
drb493超过 2 年前
If one&#x27;s goal is a revolution of thought, than perhaps being immersed in the past process is ultimately constraining.<p>Deference to past authority is an easier road to follow than direct inquiry into one&#x27;s own experiences. If human society has been plagued throughout its existence by the same innumerable problems then why do we continue on with this current line of reasoning?<p>I don&#x27;t have any answers, but thank you for posting this thought provoking piece.
more_corn超过 2 年前
This argument has already been made. You’d know it and the potential responses to it if you’d studied the history of philosophy.<p>Just kidding. I haven’t seen it made before. I’m just saying so to present the reason I appreciate studding the history of philosophy. I hate thinking I’ve had a novel idea only to find someone has already had it and furthermore three others have replied.
GolDDranks超过 2 年前
This is the exact thing that bothered me in high school philosophy classes – we were taught of great thinkers of the past, and we studied their thoughts, claims, theories, etc... Even if they were OBVIOUSLY false, in the light of present knowledge. But nobody had the guts to say that out loud.
hprotagonist超过 2 年前
Hegel would&#x27;ve agreed, anyway.<p>... whoops.
dcanelhas超过 2 年前
Not weighing in on the conclusions here, merely wanted to say that I don&#x27;t think the island is as small as the author makes it out to be.<p>The dead outnumber the living by about 15:1.
jmull超过 2 年前
&gt; it does not seem unreasonable to hope that people have learned at least something from the past<p>I wonder how that could have happened?<p>I don’t think any of this is serious. The guy is just trolling.
greenhearth超过 2 年前
The irony is that the author just uses an &quot;end of history&quot; argument, which has been around since German pessimism over a century ago.
sebastianconcpt超过 2 年前
I think Olavo de Carvalho would agree.<p>Is not completely useless but is kind of like 98% useless.
eointierney超过 2 年前
I argue that the study of the story of thought is philosophy.
ouid超过 2 年前
its certainly troublingly quadratic
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