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Why I think there's a one-in-six chance of an imminent global nuclear war

49 点作者 phantom_of_cato超过 2 年前

20 条评论

mytailorisrich超过 2 年前
There&#x27;s a lot of rhetoric and bluff.<p>I don&#x27;t believe for a second that Nato would directly strike Russia if Russia used tactical nukes in Ukraine.<p>That would indeed be a declaration of all out war against a cornered country which only remaining strength at the moment is its nuke stockpile, I.e. it would be madness and Armageddon would indeed have been triggered by Nato, not Russia.<p>Rather, the West should deny Russia a victory in Ukraine but without cornering them, as has been suggested by some leaders. The West has an interest in Russia not winning but they also have an interest in stability in Russia and in an end to military conflict.
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jules-jules超过 2 年前
Probably worth linking to the estimate by a group of superforecasters who give a 16% chance that Russia uses any type of nuclear weapon in Ukraine.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forum.effectivealtruism.org&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2nDTrDPZJBEerZGrk&#x2F;samotsvety-nuclear-risk-update-october-2022" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forum.effectivealtruism.org&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2nDTrDPZJBEerZGrk&#x2F;...</a>
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Const-me超过 2 年前
Another possible outcome, not present on the OP&#x27;s state chart, is &quot;USSR&quot;: Russia collapses for internal reasons.
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Eavolution超过 2 年前
Do we not have better things to do as humans than blow ourselves up. seriously?
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9wzYQbTYsAIc超过 2 年前
See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fivethirtyeight.com&#x2F;features&#x2F;were-edging-closer-to-nuclear-war&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fivethirtyeight.com&#x2F;features&#x2F;were-edging-closer-to-n...</a> for other calculations back in 2017
jacknews超过 2 年前
I think the west needs to avoid being over-zealous in this fight, and let&#x27;s face it we are heavily involved.<p>This war seems to be quite personal for Putin, and if he is pushed back too hard, he may act irrationally, or be ousted, and then who knows what chaos may ensue.<p>Europe should accept that cheap Russian gas is history.<p>And so, a long drawn-out stalemate in Ukraine is maybe the best course, for everyone except Russia and Ukraine.<p>It will be a tax on the west for sure, especially Europe (America should send aid), but a crippling all-consuming drain on Russia. There are rumors Putin is seriously ill. He will not likely last long as leader in any case, if the war drags on and drags Russia to the ground. But a more orderly transition will be possible if there is a stalemate in Ukraine, rather than a humiliating defeat.<p>As for nuclear escalation, it is now clear that the West&#x27;s capabilities are so far superior to Russia that we need not respond in haste. If a dog bites you, you don&#x27;t need to get on all fours and chase it to bite back; it&#x27;s fate is sealed already. And honestly, will their nukes even work? I have my doubts given everything else that&#x27;s been exposed by this misadventure.
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netfortius超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m a little confused on the usage of &quot;imminent&quot; as a term associated with high probability of an event, to the extent of requiring immediate action, and the actual &quot;one-in-six chance of... &quot;.
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beardyw超过 2 年前
&quot;I view it as highly unlikely (&lt;10%) that Putin would accept &quot;Vietnam&quot; without first going nuclear, because it would almost certainly result in him being overthrown and jailed or killed.&quot;<p>Whereas the affects of nuclear on his own country will make him a hero? Sorry, it&#x27;s just lose-lose.
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1letterunixname超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t know this author and I don&#x27;t know where they pulled these numbers from. It comes across as &quot;Strategic Nuclear War Planning for Dummies.&quot;<p>- Ukraine isn&#x27;t in NATO and won&#x27;t get in before this war concludes with Putin losing. No NATO, no automatic aid, and no WW3.<p>- The US is outspending Russia&#x27;s entire defense budget by orders-of-magnitude with HIMARS for Ukraine (artillery: the god of war). It&#x27;s only a matter of time before Putin&#x27;s military refuses to take orders.<p>- Putin&#x27;s generals would sooner remove him that start WW3 beyond a few tac nukes.<p>- Tac nukes aren&#x27;t going to start WW3 except push Russia further beyond DPRK pariah status. Lots of fallout, lots of people will need to move out of the way in a hurry depending on the winds, but brinksmanship escalation by the West would be suicidal&#x2F;omnicidal.<p>- Putin is seeking a 1989 do-over and resentment over Afghanistan, but it&#x27;s going to follow a similar result. Putin is, in recent years, doing the same thing and expecting a different result.<p>- Putin likely has cancer since an oncologist has been following him around.<p>- It&#x27;s plain to read the nonverbal communication of Putin&#x27;s inner circle whenever they appear on camera: they&#x27;re wondering how they can get rid of him. Putin&#x27;s altered mental state is somewhere between &#x27;roid-rage, low T grouchy old man, and cabin fever from living in a bunker in the Urals separated from society for too long. Unstable crazy person with nukes.<p>The likelihood Putin will be arrested or assassinated when he tries to order a nuclear strike seems the most likely conclusion.<p>Further reading: Ellsberg&#x27;s thesis in book form: &quot;Risk, Ambiguity, and Decision&quot;.
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gregjor超过 2 年前
Reasoning that works to determine the probability of drawing a spade from a deck of cards doesn’t apply to scenarios like this. We know the exact distribution of spades in a deck of cards. No one but Putin knows what he wants, or will do, or will think important tomorrow. No one knows how complex situations involving individual personalities and contingencies and unknown unknowns will play out. To play fortune teller with a veneer of math and “logic” just seems like showing off — look at me, so rational and smart and full of deep insight.<p>Anyone can imagine hundreds of alternatives to the six outcomes the author lists. Putin could choke on his breakfast tomorrow, or fall down a flight of stairs. Winter will hit the region soon, the soldiers might freeze and starve. Why not attach probabilities to those possibilities?<p>Worrying about things you cannot influence or change strikes me as deeply irrational. “We” as in “the west” can influence the Ukraine situation, but “we” don’t make collective decisions. Extrapolating from “I belong the group of people collectively referred to as America or The West” to “my opinion makes a difference and can influence events” veers into category error. Do you suppose the politicians in D.C. and the military leaders of NATO read Less Wrong posts?<p>The Ukraine war has many possible outcomes, none of which anyone can predict, and none of which any one person can control. History teaches that. Cherry-picking Finland, Kosovo, Vietnam, etc. as the only possible outcomes misses the unique circumstances of those conflicts and outcomes. Why not include the last Crimean War as a possible outcome? Or the one time nuclear weapons did get used in a war?
radu_floricica超过 2 年前
I agree with most of the post&#x2F;diagram, except the last step.<p>There&#x27;s a joke that appeared early this year: a Russian had an accident and fell into a coma before the war, and just wakes up. He&#x27;s asking for news, and the nurse tells him that it&#x27;s bad: they&#x27;re in a war with NATO, and they already lost 60k people, 2000 tanks and 500 planes. &quot;And NATO?&quot;, he asks. &quot;What are their losses?&quot;. The nurse answers: &quot;Ah, NATO hasn&#x27;t showed up yet&quot;.<p>The best chance Putin has to lose and still keep political power is for NATO to show up. I can&#x27;t really imagine him successfully losing to Ukraine alone, land lease or no land lease.<p>It&#x27;s actually the only scenario where interests align even a bit in this whole mess. Putin would like to win _something_, but at this point he&#x27;s probably happy to be rid of the whole mess and still be in power. NATO would love to give him a bloody nose and see him turn back. And Ukraine would definitely love to be rid of Russia and start on reconstructing and integrating into the west.<p>Now, in a rational world they could just have a nice chat over tea and settle things like adults - and who knows, maybe they&#x27;re actually talking this out in a zoom call, the kind we won&#x27;t see declassified even in 50 years. But in the real world, the only one we see, they need to perform the dance. For Putin to retreat he needs NATO to bloody his nose. NATO needs a very good reason to do that, because the west is political and has a lot of pacifists. So he throws a nuke or three, NATO bombs the shit out of the Russian forces in Ukraine, and he finally has an excuse and internal political power to sue for peace on realistic terms. Who knows, he might even get to keep Crimea, de facto if not de jure.
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okasaki超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s interesting to think about an alternative history where Russia joined NATO.<p>As Putin did want to:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2021&#x2F;nov&#x2F;04&#x2F;ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2021&#x2F;nov&#x2F;04&#x2F;ex-nato-head-s...</a>
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tim333超过 2 年前
Thing is using nukes in Ukraine probably wouldn&#x27;t go very well for Putin.<p>The Ukrainian armed forces are pretty spread out so a nuke or two would only take out a very small percentage of them. It would then probably result in something like:<p>&gt;Petraeus: US would destroy Russia’s troops if Putin uses nuclear weapons in Ukraine <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2022&#x2F;oct&#x2F;02&#x2F;us-russia-putin-ukraine-war-david-petraeus" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2022&#x2F;oct&#x2F;02&#x2F;us-russia-puti...</a><p>ie the US&#x2F;NATO destroying Russia&#x27;s forces in Ukraine and or the black sea fleet.<p>Hitting somewhere like London probably wouldn&#x27;t go well either as there are like 55 countries against Russia so they hit a small fraction and bang goes Moscow + St Pete and Russia is pretty much done for.
polotics超过 2 年前
Is it just me or do you also get the impression this article has triggered all troll-farms worldwide? Trying to catch the implied ideas many of the posts are trying to implant is just a drag.
Overtonwindow超过 2 年前
I am rather surprised in the confidence of Vladimir Putin‘s nuclear arsenal, and even his willingness to use it. He may say launch the missile, but I think there’s less than a 10% chance it will actually happen. Not only that, we have to consider the technological and maintenance capabilities of the systems. If Russia launches a missile, it’s a 50-50 that it won’t just turn around and come right back down on them.<p>The chances of a nuclear strike by Russia ate very, very low and most of this talk is sensationalism.
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kkfx超过 2 年前
Mh... A site named lesswrong who can&#x27;t be seen without JS...
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themodelplumber超过 2 年前
&gt; I&#x27;d love to hear your thoughts both on this risk modeling framework<p>I guess I don&#x27;t see the word qualitative the same way the author does. To me &quot;qualitative&quot; implies inputs like depth, thought, introspection, care, conscientiousness, reflection, things like that.<p>Anyway, here are some thoughts on the topic and article, based on personality theory, one of the areas I like to think about and hack on:<p>- Putin thinks of threats as qualitative solutions. He does not think of actions being nearly as valuable. He continually demonstrates that his threats are calculated far more deeply and conscientiously than his actions.<p>- Putin thinks (likely subconsciously) that actually taking actions (like initiating nuclear warfare) is a quantitative solution that is shallow, irritating and effectively risky to his bluffer&#x27;s poker strategy. You don&#x27;t make a Russia out of the equivalent of Italy&#x27;s resources by _showing_ what you can do with your stuff, after all.<p>- Putin is in a holistic position that makes nuclear war a far more valuable threat than action. This is partially due to his internal psychology, because he prefers diplomatic and political puzzles to outright warfare. The outright warriors are more like the ones winning this conflict on the ground right now.<p>- Putin views direct negotiation itself as weakness. Negotiation is conducted by actions that threaten further action, but the planning of negotiation in such a form is where the energy goes.<p>- Putin would rather not work on conflict at a global scale. His best tools, perspectives, and allies are all local-scale.<p>- Putin is directly calling many, if not most of the shots, and is effectively in control of the Russian political character on the global stage.<p>- Putin doesn&#x27;t think in terms of escalate or not. He thinks in terms of solving puzzles and offering puzzles to be solved in return. (The same is not true of Zelensky or Biden, which is very important here. You have a battle of psychological perspectives, with force good&#x2F;bad in the West aligned vs politics cunning&#x2F;weak in Russia. Dangerous match with no default winner [1])<p>IMO Putin likely believes he has 1,000 strategies that are more effective than triggering something as generic as nuclear war. However, some of them may involve &quot;mysterious&quot; limited nuclear war, for example. In fact I think one of his most effective strategies could be a slow escalation of radiation exposure events via various means, accompanied by denial and diplomatic go-betweens.<p>Also, I noticed that like most of us, the author writes in such a way as to reveal their personal preferences. A common blind spot for authors with similar preferences is that they will work very hard to answer a near-random question and then spend lots of build time on internal logic.<p>This then sets up a de facto misdirection fallacy: Look into the question, but don&#x27;t question the question. This is a particularly tenacious fallacy because there is no other-hand alternative being offered in any case, and humans aren&#x27;t generally comfortable working with the unknown. So questions, particularly those which are interesting for some set of reasons, can cause big problems just because other questions aren&#x27;t being uncovered and discussed with the same resources.<p>Qualitatively impressive internals and a neat model are one possible result of this setup for sure, but in that way this is still a Jedi mind trick the author may not even be aware of. So, was there a question-selection framework? How do we know this question is worth spending time on? What are some other questions that are interesting, for example questions that may help tease out new models for a successful response to the threat? Or are there types of questions that model the situation better?<p>And this doesn&#x27;t get into some other issues like the internal terms used and their graphed relationship. A lot of assumptions are made, figures are pulled, and details left out.<p>Qualitatively it&#x27;s an interesting article to read for sure, and I wouldn&#x27;t criticize it too harshly when it at least meets that bar and comes with a graph.<p>But it doesn&#x27;t do much for a common dichotomy here, i.e. do we continue to act in what is assumed to be an escalation, or do we deescalate and hope that the result is better than what we are supposed to think is the only alternative to deescalation?<p>(Dichotomies like escalate and de- are pretty messed up, really.)<p>1. I do think that the Biden-Zelensky relational support system is extremely risky on the side of force. These are both highly emotive, force-on-force personalities. They may stumble right into Putin&#x27;s blind spot and force his hand by a combination of his own personal, embarrassing weakness in the areas of lack of care and lack of suitable employed force, and their own combined, nuclear-critical capability for turning passionate moral crusade into political gaffe. God I hope I&#x27;m wrong about this.
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Eddy_Viscosity2超过 2 年前
Ug, nuclear war is a civilization ending event and everyone, even Putin, knows this and does not want this. The chances are therefore 0%.
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trasz超过 2 年前
It would be a fun way to discover that all those black programs which continued after the nuclear weapon development formally ended in the 80’s really did result in Kessler satellites, particle beams, and clean nukes.
aintmeit超过 2 年前
I think there&#x27;s a one-in-one chance of what you say happening because it&#x27;s already started.