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The Social Recession: By the Numbers

248 点作者 antonomon超过 2 年前

31 条评论

gernb超过 2 年前
WFH is only going to make this worse. A top place people spend long amounts of time with others is work. Work is in top 2 places people make new romantic partners, marriage partners, and friends.<p>There&#x27;s nothing on the horizon to replace it as a socializing force. Even if you WFH those ~8 hours a day, 40 days of week of sitting alone can&#x27;t be made up for by socializing outside of that time, something you could already do before WFH.<p>I&#x27;m not saying you should therefore be forced to go to the office. Rather I&#x27;m just pointing out WFH will arguably make this worse, maybe not for your specific situation, but in aggregate across the population, if WFH is the new normal then we&#x27;ll need to social institutions to fix the lack of socialization opportunities that are being discarded.
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fleddr超过 2 年前
An uncomfortable way to look at it, but the more freedom and convenience we acquire, the less social we end up being.<p>Starting with religion. I&#x27;m not religious myself, but that doesn&#x27;t mean I can&#x27;t acknowledge it as a powerful community builder. You&#x27;ll get to know everyone in the community. Neighbors, business owners, friends, possible spouses. And their families and all their life events. There&#x27;s no real replacement for this &quot;forced&quot; social bonding at scale.<p>Meeting friends used to require physical co-location. You&#x27;d ring their doorbell and asks if they&#x27;re available to play. It would all be in-person. Now this happens occasionally but far less, a lot of this is digitized.<p>Early teenager years: boys live in their bedroom, gaming with a headset. Girls spent their time chatting or posting on social networks.<p>Later teenager years (party years). Far less in person. Some gatherings of friends at home, much less in public settings where you can meet new people.<p>Work: from home but even when in the office: increasingly virtualized due to outsourcing, complicated vendor models, etc.<p>Leisure: at home. Not just spending time on passive entertainment, also shipping shit to your door so that you don&#x27;t have to go out and actually interact with people.<p>In the case that people do go out in the physical world, they see disengaged people. In a rush, unapproachable (always on phone).<p>We&#x27;ve become self-centered, anti-social. The old way which forced you to interact with the physical world and its people produced far healthier human beings.
seydor超过 2 年前
The US must not be a low-trust society. You should try to live in an actual low trust society (where people can&#x27;t trust institutions and instead revert to their family or clan). The US is not like that, people seem to trust other people they have never seen before because they trust things like justice or the US army or google or apple.<p>Other than that, it seems that things are progressing as normal. Since the times of the Enlightenment, there was this oxymoron of idealizing individual empowerment, while advocating that humans are social animals that must act collectively. Which is it? Well with today&#x27;s technology and abundance people are drifting deliberately and decisively towards more individualism. Perhaps it is about ime to stop describing these things as &#x27;problems&#x27; and realize that they are the new reality. Our politics worldwide is quite ancient , and not prepared for the next phase of individual empowerment. The places of the world that are stuck in collectivist mindsets are awfully deluded like Russia, or rigidly antiprogressive, like China.
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jasmer超过 2 年前
We have such an absence of &#x27;3rd space&#x27; areas, otherwise called &#x27;community spaces&#x27; that literally the language seems to be missing, and we can nary fathom it into the analysis!<p>I would have imagined that the entire discussion would have been about that. I&#x27;m originally from a small town where it&#x27;s almost entirely a &#x27;3rd space&#x27; - even the homes.<p>Sitting with my grandmother for lunch, literally random people would walk in to &#x27;say hi&#x27; - or not really &#x27;hi&#x27; but rather to talk&#x2F;pass on something &#x27;really important&#x27; such as the cousin of the shop keeper who passed on, and that&#x27;s his family at the funeral parlour - because of course you ought to know. etc..<p>There is a great intellectual in personal freedom in being able to leave the community, at the same time, civil society has not created a replacement; frankly it&#x27;s obvious and sad.<p>Perhaps even more perverse are generations of people who have never known what was, and have no frame of reference for it.<p>Our leaders don&#x27;t give it a thought and many would be leaders who might otherwise speak for traditional communities either lack the communication skills, are caught up in other bad ideas, or are pushed aside as relics in favour of some ideological meme.<p>I think this is a first order cultural issue, like healthcare and social assistance. I&#x27;m not sure we have even the language to address it, as usually the most academic individuals want to talk about the most progressive ideas and &#x27;change&#x27; of some kind. Perhaps there is hope, in that often we just find a &#x27;new way&#x27; to describe some otherwise traditional concept. &#x27;Organic gardens&#x27; being a good example of that; in my hometown, many people have &#x27;organic gardens&#x27; - because they&#x27;ve just always had &#x27;gardens&#x27;, and really never did use a chemicals, ergo, they were hip before it was hip. Perhaps the term &#x27;3rd Space&#x27; can substitute in a similar manner to describe what we&#x27;ve understood since the dawn of time in social terms, i.e. &#x27;the community&#x27;.
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tchock23超过 2 年前
I wonder how much of the lack of close friends is due to people moving more frequently. After college most of my close friends did a stint in various cities making it very difficult to maintain a relationship with them. I’d be curious to see a graph of reported close friendships against mobility.
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jackcosgrove超过 2 年前
I see the collapse of authority as mostly a product of more information at our fingertips. The authorities were always lying double-dealers; we just had less of a clue of the extent of it.<p>In that way, I see the collapse of institutional trust as a good thing. Not because I&#x27;m an anarchist or iconoclast, but because systems built upon illusions are less stable than systems built upon truths.<p>We are in the process of a shift from an unstable equilibrium to a stable equilibrium. That shift is shaking a lot of people loose from society&#x27;s safety nets, but ultimately will lead to a better place. It had to be done.
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unrealp超过 2 年前
- I help people in a mental health support group, (not a counseller, just informal). I see people aged below 25 going to therapists for advice that used to be given by friends in earlier era, some of the advice I saw was really common sense stuff. Indirectly it might be supportive of the statement that friendships are declining. - I wonder how much of increase in youngsters&#x27; mental health issues numbers is due to better reporting of data and better awareness of mental health issues in young people. - Friendships among young people are less confrontational and more supportive now. People want to say nice things even if they see oddities; people want to be politically correct. Previous generation used to get more honest feedback. For example, if someone doesnt want to socialize, now friends label the person as introvert and encourage acceptance of introversion vs previously friends used to encourage being social. I see the positive of &#x27;acceptance of whatever you are&#x27; mindset, at the same time I think &#x27;motivating to do something different&#x27; has reduced. I see positive&#x2F;negative of both approaches.
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errantmind超过 2 年前
The more time people spend passively consuming entertainment, the less time they spend doing everything else, including socializing.<p>Most everyone I know just sits on their phones, computers, or TVs a good portion of the day. All boredom is banished, all gaps are filled. The threshold for participation and collaboration is higher, because why risk boredom when you have guaranteed-minimum-satisfaction available.
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analyte123超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t know how you can look at a graph of how many teenagers work, drive, and go out that suddenly declines after 2008 and not mention the major economic recession at the time. While I agree that there are technological changes and purely social changes that have happened, I think there&#x27;s more to the economic causes of this issue that aren&#x27;t usually examined by this type of commentator.
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jesuscript超过 2 年前
Here’s a wild question:<p>Are we not all friends here on HN? Or am I so depraved and desperate? Have I socially died and don’t even know it, friends?<p>We’re all friends right? Right? What the fuck is going on.
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paulpauper超过 2 年前
I think there are some key factors:<p>1. Lower trust society, probably made worse by increased political division.<p>2. Loss of social skills. People are more testy and angry or on a hair-trigger. You look at photos from 70+ years ago and people seemed friendlier , more approachable, and more gregarious. Same for online, in which people have gotten angrier and more intolerant with each election cycle. Campus guest speakers have been shouted-down when trying to give talks, such as Charles Murray. This suggests poor social skills.<p>3. Individual preferences. Perhaps people are choosing to withdrawal or be alone, because it&#x27;s more enjoyable. Maybe the internet, smart phones, Netflix, and social media are more enjoyable than social outings. There are more ways then ever for people to do things together, such as group events which are posted and scheduled online, yet people are voluntarily choosing to be alone.
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worik超过 2 年前
&quot;Putnam’s trends can be assessed more contemporaneously through a simple metric: screen time, a proxy for time spent not doing community activities in person.&quot;<p>No it is not. There is no reason to believe that screen time is displacing social time. It could well be displacing reading novels or watching TV.<p>I do a lot of socialising. I make an effort. I see other people around me doing the same thing.<p>Here I am at a screen. I cannot remember the last novel I read from start to finish.
cowpig超过 2 年前
I wonder how much of this can be explained by social media? Feels like a feeling of impending doom with climate change could also be a factor.<p>Also, I&#x27;d really like to see this trend in a broader context. How much did these kinds of indicators dip during, say, the great depression?
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rafaelero超过 2 年前
I find this subject fascinating. We young people have been detaching from the old ways of living without really building a new narrative. I still think it&#x27;s cringe how some subsections of society want to revive the traditional life ™. I mean, there&#x27;s a reason we went away from that, so that ends up being very patronizing and unhelpful.
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moneycantbuy超过 2 年前
it’s the economy. increasing wealth inequality correlates with the bleak charts presented in the article. the more squeezed we are financially, the less time we have for each other and building community.<p>also “smart” phones. how can we expect to do anything else while our eyes are glued to the little screens we carry everywhere?
colinsane超过 2 年前
&gt; Skepticism toward the state has evolved into more generalized distrust toward society at large, amplified by the internet.<p>the trust angle is presented too broadly. the article opened with how many close <i>friends</i> the individual has. i trust my close friends with my life. i trust my neighbors enough to leave my door unlocked at night. i trust the larger neighborhood to go on midnight walks with headphones, eat&#x2F;drink at a new place knowing i won’t get sick, etc. these forms of trust are what allows for IRL friendships to form. trust in gov institutions, or any large-scale system is only relevant to IRL friendships to the same degree that connecting with someone across the country over the net is relevant.<p>&gt; The healthier alternative involves rethinking internet infrastructure on pro-social ends: platforms owned by the people using them with community prerogatives in mind.<p>while i <i>do</i> believe this to be better for the individual, socially, i don’t expect this would halt the political trends. my digital life is 90% on independently-operated services like Matrix, Mastodon, git forges and good ol’ personal blogs. the more personal&#x2F;supportive social norms in these areas don’t magically lead to an environment which is pro-the-status-quo politically. almost the opposite: many of the community-operated online groups doing something they feel meaningful want to bring that same meaning to the IRL, but run into massive difficulties that they attribute to the political status quo. the Nixos convention just held in France apparently handed out a “smash the state” sticker in their swag bag. naïvely pushing for stronger&#x2F;community-operated online groups may just exacerbate the clash between the online social order and offline political order in the short term. not that i’m for or against that here: merely put forth as an observation.
cr4nberry超过 2 年前
&gt; The healthier alternative involves rethinking internet infrastructure on pro-social ends: platforms owned by the people using them with community prerogatives in mind.<p>The author essentially cites a bunch of unrelated (albeit interesting) statistics, talks (sighs) about &quot;broader cultural shifts&quot;, and then on top of all of this drops this little pseudo solution at the end. A pseudo problem followed by a pseudo solution, go figure<p>There are too many of these bloggers (and opinion columnists) sitting around in armchairs, recycling the same gibberish they read in the Atlantic and waving their hands in the air with respect to &quot;broader cultural shifts&quot;<p>The second one of these bloggers starts &quot;broader cultural shift&quot;ing is the second I put their blog in the hosts file
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fleddr超过 2 年前
And to make matters worse, AI is coming for us. Specifically for our creativity, soon destroying any sense of remaining human meaning.<p>And we&#x27;re on the verge of a AR&#x2F;VR breakthrough, probably making the screen time issue even worse.
lucasfcosta超过 2 年前
This piece is brilliant.<p>One slightly off-topic comment I have, however, is:<p>When the author talks about delayed adulthood and mentions that the percentage of 12th graders that tried alcohol declined, how is that possibly a trait of adulthood?<p>If anything, I&#x27;d say that <i>not</i> consuming alcohol demonstrates a more conscious choice that could be associated with adulthood. Also, one must consider the impact of hangovers only increases, thus increasing the correlation (I guess) between adulthood and the avoidance of alcohol.
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markvdb超过 2 年前
Are cross-cultural and&#x2F;or cross-national couples also part of this trend? I imagine there to be a growing number of cross-cultural couples with rising mobility. Hooking into traditional social life with one partner less aware of those traditions is less trivial.<p>Let me also speculate that living between countries especially takes a toll on social life due to the time invested in commuting.
tjr225超过 2 年前
We all got to see what life would be life if we put our entire existence on the internet. What we built does not make the world a better place.
martin_drapeau超过 2 年前
What do we make of online communities (i.e. gamers), sports &amp; recreation (parents sit down with other parents to chat), startups who&#x27;s cluture is team&#x2F;family like (easily replaces religion), etc...<p>Maybe the definition of individualism should evolve a little.
mavu超过 2 年前
If there was a graph, I bet my hat that you could see the impact of Facebook (introduction of algorithm deciding what posts you see), twitter and other &quot;social&quot; networks.
trh0awayman超过 2 年前
Is anyone talking to these friendless people one-on-one? I bet you there&#x27;s a very easily spotted trend&#x2F;cause that isn&#x27;t explainable with anonymous surveys.<p>As far as I can tell, it&#x27;s easier than ever before to make a close friend, for those willing. I suspect that peoples bandwidth of acceptance is narrowing with the popularization of the internet. They imagine friendship to be something other than a close bond. They&#x27;ve idealized it, so of course reality never matches up.
nimbius超过 2 年前
it may be a little obtuse but i find a rather interesting parallel between this social recession and the open ended presupposition of the National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party in the context of leninist revolutionary theory.<p>the party has repeatedly insisted socialism will triumph &#x27;eventually&#x27; without much allusion to anything but historic tendency, however i wonder if US capitalisms hyper-individualism in the throughs of social recession may be the elusive driving force that fulfills the parties prophetic declaration. that, as many more find themselves shut out and alone the notion of collaborative public forum itself could prove enticing enough to walk back some of the most egregious excesses of neoliberalism in the 21st century
ilaksh超过 2 年前
Its not just the internet. The economy also plays a role.
debacle超过 2 年前
Look at the reddit front page and tell me it isn&#x27;t enabling much of these behaviors.
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antonomon超过 2 年前
Less friends, relationships on the decline, delayed adulthood, trust at an all-time low, and many diseases of despair. The prognosis is not great.
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1270018080超过 2 年前
As someone who likes looking at charts, I hate being in the &quot;middle&quot; of the story on the social recession. In addition to everything listed in the article, we also have ever increasing partisanship, declines in education, climate destruction etc. Instead of everything getting .5% worse every year, it would be nice to see something dramatically change, good or bad. Some shift that actually changes things just to get this current failing society out of the way.<p>Is this what life is always like in declining empires? Will it just get worse every year until we have a few wars and genocides until there&#x27;s enough destruction to start rebuilding?
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readthenotes1超过 2 年前
I tried her this but it must be infected with some virus because an overlay popped up that made it so I couldn&#x27;t read anything past the first paragraph!
anovikov超过 2 年前
As an outsider, i see trust in the U.S. and the West in general as a problem. If anything, you need a lot <i>less</i> trust. You are taken for a ride by foreigners - from private citizens to governments with everything in between - all too often. It only works because you are way, way too trusting to people you shouldn&#x27;t trust.<p>We are now living in the globalised world when most people don&#x27;t share Christian values. It means, trusting anyone at all apart from (with caution) closest immediate family members (and even that only because they are on your will), is simply a mistake.