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Wikipedians question Wikimedia fundraising ethics after “somewhat-viral” tweet

479 点作者 akolbe超过 2 年前

45 条评论

shubhamjain超过 2 年前
The original thread emphasized too much on a few grants, which I feel is a minor issue considering how small part of the annual revenue they were. Not surprised Wikipedia is able to defend it easily.<p>&gt; &quot;Awards and grants&quot; amounted to $9.8 million, of which $5 million (possibly $5.5 million) represented a grant to the Wikimedia Foundation&#x27;s own Endowment held by the Tides Foundation. This leaves somewhere between $4 and $5 million for actual grants made to the community – a figure dwarfed by the Wikimedia Foundation&#x27;s $50 million budget surplus in 2020–2021. There was no lack of money for grants.<p>The actual problem is that the Foundation reached its endowment goal, five years before the the deadline it set [1], and yet, they keep guilt-tripping and pretending as if they are running out of money. How&#x27;s it not profiteering? They could be honest and add, &quot;We have already reached our goal. But raising more could help us find more avenues to increase the world&#x27;s knowledge,&quot; and they would be completely in the right. I bet fewer people would donate if they realized that they are not funding running expenses, at all.<p>Addendum: If you&#x27;re considering donating to Wikipedia, I suggest you look into doing it for Internet Archive. The complexity of their project and running expenses is way more than Wikipedia, and yet, they just received 12% of the amount that Wikipedia got in 2020 [2]. They just have $4M in net assets, and yet, I have never seen them guilt-tripping regular users.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:Fundraising_statistics" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:Fundraising_statisti...</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projects.propublica.org&#x2F;nonprofits&#x2F;organizations&#x2F;943242767&#x2F;202013219349323056&#x2F;full" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projects.propublica.org&#x2F;nonprofits&#x2F;organizations&#x2F;943...</a>
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vesinisa超过 2 年前
&gt; The money was transferred to an outside organisation, Tides Advocacy, sometime in the 2019–2020 financial year when the Foundation found it had a large amount of money left over because of an underspend<p>This is the root of the problem. Wikimedia rises too much money, and instead of putting it in a fund they &quot;need&quot; to find projects, programmes and - now apparently - outside organization that are in no way accountable to Wikimedia.<p>Instead of burning all the money they are donated, Wikimedia should first and foremost strive to secure the technical and financial continuity of the project by e.g. investing a lion&#x27;s share of the donations to a distributing fund that provides perpetual passive income from e.g. stock market dividends. Only once that passive income surpasses the current and foreseeable technical running costs (hosting, bandwidth, project and engineering staff) should they start giving money to external organizations.
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constantcrying超过 2 年前
Basically the reason why I will not donate to any large organization. Imagine donating to an organization because you think it helps them pay for their servers or devs and then it enters an intangible web of different obscure organizations, all donating to one another in some obscure way. The cause it goes to is &quot;external organizations that support knowledge equity by addressing the racial inequities preventing access and participation in free knowledge&quot;, which is about the most nebulous, meaningless &quot;cause&quot; imaginable. Where does the money go? Unkown. Who benefits? The charities.
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zinekeller超过 2 年前
It blew up now, but a user has pointed out (since <i>2017</i>, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;w&#x2F;index.php?title=User:Guy_Macon&#x2F;Wikipedia_has_Cancer&amp;oldid=767378419" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;w&#x2F;index.php?title=User:Guy_Macon&#x2F;Wi...</a>) that Wikimedia Foundation has spiraled out of control: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User:Guy_Macon&#x2F;Wikipedia_has_Cancer" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;User:Guy_Macon&#x2F;Wikipedia_has_C...</a>.<p>Even though I&#x27;m not German, I (still) donate to Wikimedia Deutschland (which is legally separate to Wikimedia Foundation) since that I see them as the &quot;janitors&quot; which actually experiments with new software that could be useful to Wikipedia et al., like for example Wikidata (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikidata.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wikidata.org</a>).
tomashubelbauer超过 2 年前
I just wish I could donate directly to the devs working on Wikipedia and to the hosting costs. Same goes for Mozilla, actually. I want to support Firefox developers, but not Mozilla. I won&#x27;t donate to either anymore even though I am a Firefox user and rely on Wikipedia a lot in my daily life as well. Maybe the devs should all set up Patreon or GitHub Sponsors accounts. I&#x27;d be happy to support them that way.
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tiagod超过 2 年前
I have donated to Wikimedia in the past. I had been a bit annoyed for the last few years at how the money was being used and the declining state of the (volunteer) editor community.<p>A couple months ago I visited the site on an incognito session and got presented with this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;HsjfAsn.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;HsjfAsn.jpg</a><p>Found it really scummy. A family member told me a few days later he donated because he thought the site was in risk, after being presented with the same text. This is someone who makes 600$ a month... Knowing this charity is getting hundreds of millions of USD *in excess* and is convincing people on the other side of the world who don&#x27;t have much cash hanging around based on shaming and misleading statements, and that it&#x27;s the charity that&#x27;s supposed to be representing and taking care of what I consider one of the most important things on the internet... feels wrong.
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gcau超过 2 年前
I use Wikipedia a lot and will never, ever donate a single dollar unless there&#x27;s radical changes (that we know we&#x27;ll never happen). If there was a better alternative to Wikipedia without all it&#x27;s beaurocratic and managerial BS I would donate to it. Wikipedia is a lost cause now in that regard I think.
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scioto超过 2 年前
Seriously, why should I donate when they&#x27;re moving the &quot;excess&quot; money outside the organization? _They don&#x27;t need it._ Perhaps if there&#x27;s some low water mark that they can set for funds under which they can start asking for donations again.<p>I won&#x27;t be donating to Wikipedia again until I hear they&#x27;re on the ropes, laid off a third of the staff, and may have to shut down. _Then_ I&#x27;ll donate.
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dang超过 2 年前
Recent and related:<p><i>Wikipedia is not short on cash</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33174533" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33174533</a> - Oct 2022 (482 comments)<p><i>The Wikimedia Foundation spends Wikipedia donations on political activism</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33170710" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33170710</a> - Oct 2022 (43 comments)<p>Related and less recent:<p><i>Poll of Wikipedians concludes: Wikimedia fundraising emails are misleading</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=32713978" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=32713978</a> - Sept 2022 (113 comments)<p><i>Wikipedia fundraising banners paused over weekend in response to complaints</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29603858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29603858</a> - Dec 2021 (22 comments)<p><i>Ask HN: Is Wikipedia running out of money?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29523033" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29523033</a> - Dec 2021 (28 comments)<p><i>Wikipedia is loaded, so why’s it asking for donations?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29402703" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29402703</a> - Dec 2021 (251 comments)<p><i>Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27339887" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27339887</a> - May 2021 (595 comments)<p><i>Should you donate to the Wikimedia Foundation? (2015)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24569239" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24569239</a> - Sept 2020 (74 comments)<p><i>Ask HN: Do you donate to Wikipedia? Is their donation request motivating?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24135871" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24135871</a> - Aug 2020 (17 comments)<p><i>Wikipedia fundraising strikes again – an open letter to Wikipedia</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15509582" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15509582</a> - Oct 2017 (23 comments)<p><i>Wikimedia Foundation&#x27;s runaway spending growth</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15429067" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15429067</a> - Oct 2017 (121 comments)<p><i>Wikimedia Foundation spending</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14287235" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14287235</a> - May 2017 (409 comments)<p><i>Wikimedia Foundation Raises $20 Million From 1 Million+ Donors</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3416127" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3416127</a> - Jan 2012 (22 comments)<p><i>Lessons learned from wikipedia&#x27;s fundraising banner design </i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1908546" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1908546</a> - Nov 2010 (37 comments)<p><i>Optimizing Wikipedia&#x27;s Fundraising Banner Ads</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1006438" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1006438</a> - Dec 2009 (14 comments)<p>Others?
trabant00超过 2 年前
&gt; Wiki Education Foundation Executive Director Frank Schulenburg: &quot;there have been serious concerns expressed about the ROI and ethics of funding grantees not doing any work that has a direct measurable impact on Wikimedia projects&quot;<p>I think this is the best criticism as it avoids going into politics and addresses the practical issue.<p>From <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;meta.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Knowledge_Equity_Fund" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;meta.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Knowledge_Equity_Fund</a>:<p>&gt; Many of the barriers that prevent people from accessing and contributing to free knowledge are rooted in systems of racial oppression.<p>I don&#x27;t think there would be a scandal if the money would have been used for the fund stated purpose: to help access and contribution to Wikipedia.<p>The money instead has gone to a political lobby group: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tides_Foundation#Advocacy_Fund" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tides_Foundation#Advocacy_Fund</a>
aasasd超过 2 年前
Gotta say, when I read about how Bram Moolenaar, the author and maintainer of Vim, works sometimes to build schools in remote areas of Uganda and encourages users to donate to that cause—not once did I question how that is helpful or what he&#x27;s doing with people&#x27;s money.
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yakubin超过 2 年前
The original thread: &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;echetus&#x2F;status&#x2F;1579776106034757633" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;echetus&#x2F;status&#x2F;1579776106034757633</a>&gt;<p>Just wow. I’ve been hearing about Wikipedia having a surplus of money for a while, it didn’t bother me. But after seeing what sort of nonsense they’re funding I’m cancelling my donations.
rippercushions超过 2 年前
Previous HN discussion about Wikimedia squandering money, all of two weeks ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33174533" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33174533</a>
chris_wot超过 2 年前
I am aware that quite a few years ago the Australian chapter of the WMF had systemic rorting. People were paid to travel overseas and report on conferences. Instead, they disappeared, did not write any reports and used it as an overseas holiday.<p>This has been a problem for a very, very long time.<p>Stop giving money to Wikipedia. They don’t need it, and they don’t publicise what they spend it on.
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gadders超过 2 年前
It sounds like donation-laundering to me.<p>&quot;People won&#x27;t donate to unpopular Cause X, so we&#x27;ll pretend Wikipedia is running out of money which is a more popular cause and pass on the donations.&quot;
ChoGGi超过 2 年前
The money I used to give to WMF has been going to Internet Archive instead, hopefully more people will do the same.<p>Edit: akolbe says it better than I could <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33403985" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33403985</a>
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commitpizza超过 2 年前
Who would want to donate to wikipedia when they know that a lot, probably most, goes to pushing woke politics?<p>2021 the hosting costs were $2.4 million and they spend well over $100 million each year.<p>If they were to use their funds to actually drive the site they have enough to fund it for years to come. Most of their funding goes to stuff that has nothing to do with Wikipedia. This is yet another example of an org that has been taken over by political extremists that don&#x27;t care about the core product and ruins everything.<p>I am a bit upset about it because I used to donate monthly until I learned about how they actually used the donations. I think this is a <i>very</i> important topic and urge that everyone that donates to Wikimedia stop immedietly.
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ShakataGaNai超过 2 年前
Wikimedia gets a TON of money each year, way way way more than it needs to support &quot;The Projects&quot; (including salaries of developers). Yet the fundraisers still cry out like if you don&#x27;t give them money, the site might go offline. Also most everyone at the WMF is not getting paid amazingly (seeing is how they are San Francisco based).<p>And I don&#x27;t know how it is now, but back in the day (about 10 years ago or so) their spending internally was hilariously wasteful. It&#x27;s been a while, but based on what news keeps coming out about them... I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s gotten any better.
DeathArrow超过 2 年前
I won&#x27;t donate to Wikipedia ever again until they will give an assurance of some kind that the money aren&#x27;t going to third parties.
hunter-2超过 2 年前
I stopped donating to Wikipedia after I learned that they were the organization behind the &quot;Chimp selfie&quot; lawsuit. I understood that my money was not going towards keeping the servers on, but instead in defending frivolous lawsuits like these.<p>In all frankness, I have no interest in letting Wikipedia die either. I just feel there are enough people who donate today that makes it easy for the foundation to do stuff beyond just keeping a Wikipedia on. Will probably donate again if their contributor pool ever shrinks.
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londons_explore超过 2 年前
I would donate to wikipedia if they would commit to becoming a smaller organisation, with a smaller staff.<p>10 fulltime staff should be plenty. ~5 developers&#x2F;devops people to run the site and slowly make changes, and 5 marketing&#x2F;branding&#x2F;business&#x2F;finance people for everything else that needs to be done.<p>Pay those 10 staff well, but cap it at that and don&#x27;t aim to grow headcount or scope beyond being a great online encyclopaedia.<p>Ironically, they probably wouldn&#x27;t need my donation if they only had 10 staff.
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karaterobot超过 2 年前
&gt; the transfer coincided with Amanda Keton&#x27;s move in the 2019–2020 financial year from General Counsel of the Tides Network and CEO of Tides Advocacy to General Counsel of the Wikimedia Foundation.<p>I wonder what &quot;coincide&quot; means here. I think the most generous inference I can make is that they had a bunch of extra money lying around from all the excess fundraising they do, and Amanda Keton said &quot;I know a worthwhile organization you could give some to.&quot; But, you&#x27;d assume that as general counsel she would be aware that that looks a little shady.<p>Of course, the even shadier conclusion you could jump to would be that she benefits from that grant, via her connection to the non-profit.<p>The fact that actions like this leave questions in people&#x27;s minds is why non-profits should strive for transparency, and diligently avoid any possible conflicts of interest, which at the <i>very</i> least didn&#x27;t happen here.
endisneigh超过 2 年前
This is why I don’t donate to any organization ever. If it’s organized it’s by definition political and I don’t donate to politicians &#x2F;s
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jasmer超过 2 年前
Let&#x27;s consider the good news here: we can have NGOs provide effective, foundational services for reasonable costs.<p>Some issues belong in the &#x27;commons&#x27; due to elements of &#x27;public good&#x27;.<p>I&#x27;m not making a political statement, this is just pragmatic reality.<p>If something like Wikipedia can exist without having to die due to lack of funding, well, maybe we can also do such things for &#x27;search&#x27; and &#x27;public messaging&#x27; (aka Twitter).<p>In this manner, we can forgo issues of &#x27;total marketing surveillance&#x27; and having an excess of irrelevant ads for so many things which might be oriented towards public good and should not have artifacts of commercialization. (And I&#x27;m not even against Ads, just their ubiquity and irrelevance).<p>Let&#x27;s not fret too much about $5M in &#x27;goodwill&#x27; money sent out to Tides but contemplate the sliver lining here.<p>Of course, we should keep our eye on these things, Tides is maybe a benevolent actor, but they are also a political actor that sent money to Canada to support issues which were ultimately related to electoral outcomes.
dncornholio超过 2 年前
The way they put up this banner on the website is so beyond me, I was never going to donate anyway. The banner on wikimedia is just disgusting. This big screaming banner is so out of place, It raised all my red flags. If they were true to them selfs, a small (permanent) link saying &#x27;donate&#x27; would&#x27;ve been fair and more than enough.
ThouYS超过 2 年前
lol, I won&#x27;t donate to wikipedia this year. Why on earth do they give grants out anyway? The only thing I want is wikipedia.
dhruval超过 2 年前
Very interesting read<p>I donate every year as I get tremendous value from Wikipedia.<p>I am still inclined to continue, but will allocate more to other not for profits this year, as the foundation is just wasting money that can be better spent elsewhere.
shp0ngle超过 2 年前
I have no comment about the main article, but I agree about the other unrelated point below - that Commons is really start to show its age.<p>It’s kind of comical how YouTube and flickr is listed there as the “new boys on the block”, but I agree that there should be more development on making Commons easier to use.<p>Try to upload photos to Commons… they don’t even have phone apps and using the web uploader is really cumbersome.<p>(I also hate wikidata with a passion, but it seems like there is a push for this Semantic Web nonsense from the very top of wikimedia so what am I gonna do)
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thereddaikon超过 2 年前
How is this not fraud?
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the-printer超过 2 年前
I mean with Obsidian v1 release who needs Wikipedia, get to blowing on your knowledge cartridges and start linking your thinking; amiright?<p>In all seriousness, I wonder if there’s an unbiased timeline of the organization and when and how things started to get hairy.
chasd00超过 2 年前
i never realized how much money they have. I suggest everyone not donate until the page load time increases because they&#x27;re having to scale back their infrastructure. I&#x27;ve always assumed donations went directly to bandwidth and servers.
fleddr超过 2 年前
Required reading: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailydot.com&#x2F;debug&#x2F;wikipedia-endownemnt-fundraising&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailydot.com&#x2F;debug&#x2F;wikipedia-endownemnt-fundrais...</a>
BonoboIO超过 2 年前
Same as Mozilla Foundation ... they are kept alive by Google money, so Google can say that they have no monopoly on browsers.<p>Their side projects are money sinkholes. Would never give money to Mozilla.
bacchusracine超过 2 年前
Isn&#x27;t this the exact thing they went after Jim Bakker for? Raising too much money for a specific purpose and then taking the excess money and using it for other projects?
Traubenfuchs超过 2 年前
The wikimedia foundation is a kleptocratic blight upon wikipedia.
ryan_lane超过 2 年前
Note that this post is submitted by the same troll who is constantly posting different variations of this same theme.
dandare超过 2 年前
Given the progressive&#x2F;woke bias of Wikipedia, I am scared to ask what was that money really used for.
fleddr超过 2 年前
I think there&#x27;s a neutral technical aspect and a political aspect.<p>The neutral aspect is that if you have so much money (a surplus) that you start giving it away to secondary causes, you&#x27;re being misleading. The begging messages clearly imply they&#x27;re about to run out of money to run things, which seems opposite to reality.<p>So they should change the tone of the message, and provide more transparency about where the money goes to. It should be a basic donator&#x27;s right to understand if the money is needed at all, and where it is used for. No matter from which political angle you&#x27;re coming from.<p>As for the political angle, to each their own. I&#x27;d say most knowledge institutes are progressive and always have been. Importantly, moderately progressive or &quot;classic liberal&quot;. Which is quite different from post-modernist, equity, &quot;woke&quot; type of politics. This last category far less embraced, and not just by conservatives.<p>The situation seems comparable to Mozilla. Many people would gladly donate to support the development of the Firefox browser but not neccessarily want to reward incompetent leaders or fund the running of a &quot;indigenous intersectional BLM feminist blog&quot; that does absolutely fuck-all for anybody.
kapsi超过 2 年前
So that Twitter user started talking about Wikipedia funding the &quot;culture war&quot;, and I stopped reading. I guess it&#x27;s my own fault for reading what an anime avatar has to say.
renewiltord超过 2 年前
Thank you. Cancelled.
1970-01-01超过 2 年前
Time to change my Amazon smile recipient!
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throwawayacc2超过 2 年前
I had a recurring donation set up for wikipedia. I really like it. It’s useful. But I hate woke politics. So, yeah, I no longer have that recurring donation.<p>I genuinely don’t understand why people feel the need to shove their ideology down peoples throat every chance they get.
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RickJWagner超过 2 年前
Wikipedia has become politicized. It&#x27;s really a shame, because it could have been (and was, I think) a great source of straight-up information.<p>No more. I trust Wikipedia as much as I trust Fox news or CNN or MSNBC now.
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morbidious超过 2 年前
Wikipedia is known to have funded anti-India riots, and it has connections with an infamous anti-Hindu and anti-India propagandist, George Soros.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1p-qVpm_CHU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=1p-qVpm_CHU</a>
lantry超过 2 年前
Every time something like this makes the hn frontpage, I increase my monthly recurring donation by 1$. Wikipedia is literally the best thing to come from the modern Internet and I&#x27;m not willing to let it die, no matter how &quot;problematic&quot; the Wikimedia foundation becomes.
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