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The Fediverse is inefficient but that's a good trade-off

276 点作者 ericblues超过 2 年前

23 条评论

uneekname超过 2 年前
What has happened with Mastodon recently feels like a great thing for the fediverse. Many of these platforms are still working out their implementation kinks, but they aren&#x27;t babies anymore. Just when I thought ActivityPub might never catch on, a significant number of people have decided to give it a chance.<p>Makes me want to implement some ActivityPub features on my own site, so I can get in on the fun!
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lifeisstillgood超过 2 年前
This reminds me of acoup.blog and his take on subsistence farming as a <i>risk reduction</i> decision. Yes under Roman rule there was more &quot;efficient&quot; farming as some (slave worked) farms began focusing on primary crops for sale.<p>This meant efficiency of scale plus Ricardos law kicked in and Roman food production increased even without Haber or John Deere.<p>But most small farmers throughout the ages did not do this - they could have invented the co-op mass farm but the risks were too great - there was not a trade system globally that could guarantee delivery of food stuff X and so it was sensible to not focus your own production on food stuff Y but to grow a little of everything.<p>I think what we are seeing here is Mastodon etc as the response to the risks of centralised but efficient servers - privacy, ads, government monitoring etc.
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kazinator超过 2 年前
Here is a UI issue that could be a deal-breaker for many would be Mastodon users: broken search.<p>When I type a hashtag into the search box of any given instance, I get useless search results.<p>For instance if I search for #lisp on fosstodon, I get some hash tags that begin with #lisp, not #lisp itself. They all have very low activity, from several years ago.<p>If I do the same on another instance like mstdn.ca, I get nothing.<p>BUT: if I use the URL &lt;domain&gt;&#x2F;tags&#x2F;lisp, bam: recent stuff appears! On either instance. The same if I see the hash tag in a post and click on it.<p>Users are going to join Mastodon and try to use the search box to find content related to their interests, and falsely conclude that there is nothing, or next to nothing. That is going to cause some nonzero user attrition.<p>It&#x27;s not just a problem for tags like #lisp, but mainstream things like #kids, #parenting, #dogs, what have you.<p>My home instance comes up with nothing for any of these searches, with or without hash. Not quite; for &quot;dogs&quot; it finds a <i>user</i> named &quot;Elon Musk F___s Dogs&quot; as its only search result.
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irusensei超过 2 年前
I really need to remind you folks that you are transferring your trust to these local server administrators. They might mishandle your data. They might be even less prepared to deal with moderation than big social media. They might end up having to close their services due to lack of time or money.<p>It’s all fun but please keep this in mind. Perhaps host your own instance?
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csande17超过 2 年前
<i>Does</i> Mastodon need to spend more time per post on moderation than a service like Twitter? As I understand it, people generally report bad posts to the moderator of the instance they came from and expect them to take them down. And if the instance is unresponsive to takedown requests, it gets added to a blacklist that is shared widely across instances (via #fediblock etc). So the end result is you generally have one person either taking down a post or issuing a network-wide ban, just like on Twitter.
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nyanpasu64超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m convinced decentralization is viable for local applications and services like offline document editors and Syncthing, somewhat so for geographically dispersed but closed systems like 1:1 DMs and group chats&#x2F;video calls (Tailscale sharing might work for static sets of people like friend groups and polycules), but I&#x27;m not sure the moderation and inter-server conflicts are workable for publicly visible posts where you expect anyone on any server to be able to reply to people on another server.
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molly0超过 2 年前
I like Mastodon because it reminds me of an earlier and more interesting web.<p>The same people I follow on Twitter I follow on Mastodon and I feel they are being more honest on Mastodon. This might not be true.
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carapace超过 2 年前
Whenever you hear the words &quot;efficient&quot; or &quot;inefficient&quot; you should always have in the fore of your mind the question &quot;For what goal?&quot; or in other words &quot;By what metric?&quot;<p>A lot can hide in the unspoken assumptions behind the unqualified use of the idea of efficiency.<p>In this case the comparison of &quot;efficiency&quot; of Twitter vs. Mastodon is pretty meaningless. There are as many goals as there are users and moderators and (in Twitter&#x27;s case) management and investors, eh? Of course, there are broad groupings and shared interests, but by and large the folks using Twitter and&#x2F;or Mastodon have different goals.<p>It reminds me of comparisons between industrial farming and small-scale ecological farming: industrial farming is more efficient at creating massive amounts of <i>some kinds</i> of products, but it literally cannot produce <i>any</i> of some other kinds of products. (E.g. you can&#x27;t get Alpine strawberries in the supermarket because they start to lose structural integrity the very moment you pick them. The only way to get them is to grow them close to your kitchen.)<p>- - - -<p>As a bit of a tangent, I like to reflect how evolution has no goals therefore speaking of the efficiency of living systems is meaningless. Evolution is a chemical tautology.
peterweyand超过 2 年前
I&#x27;ve seen more and more advertisements for Mastadon on HN, probably because of the whole Twitter debacle. Does anyone use the service? I mean, enough people so that the average person would know what it is? From my experience with Mastadon it took me a while to even learn how the service was used, and all I remember was thinking &quot;wow that&#x27;s too complicated to use or get Joe Average User to sign up for&quot;. Without ease of use a critical mass of users won&#x27;t be possible so it won&#x27;t ever be anything other than a niche product.
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dbrgn超过 2 年前
&quot;My honey would cost over €10 a jar if I&#x27;d pay my time.&quot;<p>Locally made honey (i.e. not from South America) in Switzerland usually costs significantly more than 10€ :)
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ahMath8超过 2 年前
The real problem with Fediverse is we’ve already seen how people will use it ala Facebook and Twitter.<p>I don’t get to goto work and engineer essentially the same product 2007 engineered.<p>It’s a rehash of a rehash of an idea that will become another social landfill.<p>Really looking forward to the technology equivalent of another Star Wars or Batman trilogy!
ZeroGravitas超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m not sure I accept the premise.<p>I can imagine it being both more efficient and just better in various measures as well.<p>For starters just the ads and trackers must have a cost, which is paid on every visit.<p>As we&#x27;ve seen many times on the internet, cacheable content can be far more efficient than constantly updated content that needs refetched just to show you an ad impression. Google&#x27;s web page speed tools will warn you about Google Ads non-cachable JS tracker.<p>Combine that with the incentive to show growth in &#x27;user&#x27; metrics, which encourages both leniency on bots and intentionally addictive designs for non-bots and I can see an obvious case for twitter being less efficient.
VonGuard超过 2 年前
Standards can fix this stuff: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spritely.institute&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;spritely.institute&#x2F;</a><p>Spritely is an effort to fix the problems that remain with ActivityPub.
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anotherrandom超过 2 年前
&gt; ___ is inefficient but that&#x27;s a good tradeoff<p>Everyone who knows that a technology where decentralization is one of the requirements will know this, and they will also know that this is a required tradeoff when it comes to decentralization - no free lunch.<p>A lot of people skewer blockchain-based tech for ineffeciency, but not a lot of those people realize it&#x27;s supposed to be like that.<p>I&#x27;m glad that people are at least starting to realize that a lot of decentralized tech has the prerequisite of forfeiting efficiency.
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its-summertime超过 2 年前
thought experiment:<p>Write a twitter clone for a moderately sized community, lets say 10k with probably, 1-5% of community active at any given time. hell, even throw in activitypub if you want.<p>vs.<p>Write twitter.<p>I know which I&#x27;d rather do! Only one of the two is easier than rocket science! (haha)<p>Its inefficient because it hasn&#x27;t needed to be efficient, but that will change in the future or someone else&#x27;ll take over. Cascade issues are fixable. the end result is proven achievable (see telcos and the SMS systems that cover the world, global scale federated messaging exists and works!)
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supermatt超过 2 年前
Why does every instance need a copy of posted assets? Is that really the case?
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mlindner超过 2 年前
Won&#x27;t this just end up in the situation that the far right stays on Parler and the far left goes to Mastodon? Sounds like Twitter will end up a happier place without the extremists.
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overlisted超过 2 年前
TLDR: Calling self-hosting inefficient is like calling homegrown food inefficient.
phoe-krk超过 2 年前
<i>&gt; (...) the fediverse, the network of mastodon servers, (...)</i><p>This sentence at the very start already makes no sense. The above snippet makes as much sense as calling Web a network of nginx and Apache servers since nginx and Apache combined serve the majority of all web traffic.<p>There are services like Pleroma, Friendica, Misskey, Pixelfed, Write.as, PeerTube, and other Activity-Pub-speaking software which are NOT Mastodon or its forks. The author mentions these other pieces of software later, but pulling them them as &quot;some part of mastodon&quot; is at best a misnomer.<p>And it&#x27;s been written about countless times already. See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bofh.social&#x2F;notice&#x2F;APTBaDyBOOvNAzaeqO" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bofh.social&#x2F;notice&#x2F;APTBaDyBOOvNAzaeqO</a> for a relatively fresh list.
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doener超过 2 年前
I think the author idealizes a bit strongly here. Internet infrastructure is not a garden, so I don&#x27;t think the metaphor fits. And the exponentially growing requirements for hardware and power consumption are at least a real challenge - although certainly not as extreme as with proof-of-work blockchains.
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AustinDev超过 2 年前
Mastodon will never have the level of censorship or control that a centralized platform like Twitter, Facebook, or TikTok have. I can&#x27;t wait for it to be the norm but I doubt that it will ever happen due to the lack of censorship.
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ForHackernews超过 2 年前
I think this article underestimates the inefficiencies in large, centralized systems where efficiency is not a goal, and incentives are weighted against it.<p>Famously, Facebook&#x27;s iOS app is over 100 MB[0] and for Android, their engineers hacked the Dalvik VM because they had so many class definitions they were overflowing a 5MB buffer <i>just for the definitions</i> - and then, staggeringly, they bragged about this obscenity.[1]<p>I can only imagine their backend systems are a similar nightmare, that leads to nonsense like FB building its own data centers to run their photos-and-ads crud app.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cio.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;230043&#x2F;why-is-facebooks-ios-app-so-bloated.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cio.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;230043&#x2F;why-is-facebooks-ios-app-...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;engineering.fb.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;03&#x2F;04&#x2F;android&#x2F;under-the-hood-dalvik-patch-for-facebook-for-android&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;engineering.fb.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;03&#x2F;04&#x2F;android&#x2F;under-the-hood...</a>
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azangru超过 2 年前
&gt; And so is the case with the fediverse. The six million users would &quot;easily&quot; fit on a mastodon on under thirty (virtual) servers, a very few large PostgreSQL database servers and a single file-server&#x2F;storage. I know, because I&#x27;ve built and grown such Rails systems, with millions of users (on AWS). Certainly not thousands of servers. Definitely not thousands of database-servers.<p>&gt; Even if Mastodon were to be rewritten in Rust, tuned, and changed into a backend that can host thousands of users on a single Raspberry-Pi running on solar power, it still is inefficient. For one, because that backend would be even more efficient when employed in a centralized setup. And secondly because there is a lot of network overhead.<p>Reading these two paragraphs, I was struck by how similar it is to the argument against proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, only with the oppozite conclusions. Look how wasteful, they will say, look how inefficient, and slow, and non-green it is. It&#x27;s rare to hear someone argue that yes, a technology is wasteful, and it is a good thing.