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Just how complicated could it be to register a German company?

228 点作者 Major_Grooves超过 2 年前

58 条评论

rad_gruchalski超过 2 年前
Wow, this article is a mess. Yes, registering a UG or GmbH is more complicated than Ltd (I’ve done all three) but the process can be basically narrowed down to:<p>1. Notary. 2. Bank account. 3. Steuerberater takes over from here. Why does he even do Elster himself if he uses a Steuerberater?<p>4. No. You absolutely do not need an UG as a founder to start a GmbH. You can start a GmbH as a legal person. You do the UG intermediary stunt just for the case if you (the UG) sell the GmbH shares to avoid paying income taxes on that sale. Because every company in Germany is basically a separate legal entity (it’s equal to a person) with its own tax number and everything.<p>My UG took days to be registered, GmbH took 5 months due to international founders.<p>If he doesn’t know what a notary is, well, here’s a good British source he could find using Google: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thenotariessociety.org.uk&#x2F;pages&#x2F;what-is-a-notary" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thenotariessociety.org.uk&#x2F;pages&#x2F;what-is-a-notary</a>. Notaries absolutely exist in the UK and I used them myself in London.<p>Regarding the language. The only thing you’re going to hear as a response to that entitlement: “this is Germany, we do this the German way”. I’m not German, just fyi… you know, when I arrived in the UK in 2006, I didn’t expect that everyone will explain to me things in Polish. I actually had to learn the language.
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earthnail超过 2 年前
I have a GmbH, and I&#x27;m German. The process is more complicated than in other countries because of the notary. The notary doesn&#x27;t really add value in this process, he&#x2F;she just costs a lot of money.<p>The German Standards Setting Institute, a private organization which provides lots of standard template documents for startups, actually make it a focus to minimize the notary costs in many of their docs (and ironically, they have notaries helping them because some notaries also think it&#x27;s ridiculous).<p>It is much simpler to set up a limited company in the UK, for comparison (which I&#x27;ve also done). And everything the author describes, about the IHK for example, and the Bundesanzeiger Verlag, appears completely stupid to me, too. What value <i>exactly</i> does the IHK provide me? I asked my tax consultant that, too, and he gave me a vague answer along the lines of &quot;they do stuff for you and it&#x27;s good&quot;, and I still have no clue what the IHK does <i>for me</i>.<p>The official letter for the Bundesanzeiger Verlag states &quot;we know that you probably received a lot of fraudulent mail asking you to wire money to other bank accounts. Do not trust them, only trust this letter and send money to the following bank account.&quot; Really? Your word on your letter vs their word on theirs? WTF?!?<p>Yes, it is ridiculous.
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lqet超过 2 年前
I registered a basic company - but without limited liability - around 5 years ago in Germany. I put my name, address, and the company name onto a 1 page PDF (form GewA1 [0]), sent it via email to town hall and received a confirmation and an invoice (I think it was 30 EUR?) a few days later. I was then owner of a company. The whole process took 10 minutes in total. The registration with the IHK was done automatically (the IHK is a kind of business lobby organization, and the required membership ensures that it does not only represent large companies). The tax office was also informed automatically.<p>This article is a strange rant by someone who seems to be infinitely surprised that:<p>1) You have to register your company with some authority.<p>2) Business is conducted in the countries official language. (<i>&quot;The whole process should be in English. I don&#x27;t care that it is Germany. English. English. English.&quot;</i>)<p>3) Legal documents should be notarized (<i>&quot;What is a Notary? I’m not sure&quot;</i>)<p>4) Diverting company money into your private pocket is a crime (<i>&quot;Really, no joke, only use it for your company. Our notary did emphasise to us quite strongly that to do otherwise with that €300, would basically be fraud, and we could go to prison. Cool.&quot;</i>)<p>5) Storing company money on a bank account is usually a good idea (<i>&quot;Do you really need a bank account? I have no idea. Theoretically not, but if you dare suggest that to anyone that you won’t bother with a company bank account they foretell doom and catastrophe, so I just shut up set up a bank account.&quot;</i>)<p>6) You have to pay taxes, and it might be more complicated to do taxes for a limited liability company than for a private person.<p>Also:<p>&gt; Find a Steuerberater (Tax consultant) Yeah, you need one of these to do the tax return for your not-really-doing-anything personal holding company. This will be expensive.<p>No. You don&#x27;t need a tax consultant. You can do the taxes yourself if you want.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gewerbeanmeldung.de&#x2F;formular-gewerbeanmeldung" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gewerbeanmeldung.de&#x2F;formular-gewerbeanmeldung</a>
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odiroot超过 2 年前
Having lived in Germany, this brings back a few bad memories. So many processes feel overly complicated, frequently requiring lawyers or other highly-paid specialists. Add stacks of papers on top of that, faxes, certified translations etc.<p>Sometimes it feels, like the State there acts as a great gatekeeper instead of a facilitator.<p>Other times, you may feel, there&#x27;s a &quot;cartel&quot; between the government officials and the aforementioned specialists -- pay some agent to magically pull out a near appointment slot, instead of waiting a few months to see a clerk.<p>I could speak B2-level German, so the language wasn&#x27;t really that much of a problem. I can only imagine how much harder it&#x27;s for people just starting in Germany.
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Daimanta超过 2 年前
&quot;The whole process should be in English. I don’t care that it is Germany. English. English. English. I speak decent German, but the vocabulary of company incorporation was not covered in my Volkhochschule classes nor Duolingo.&quot;<p>The process is difficult because I refuse to learn the language of the country. My first reaction was &quot;What an absolute asshole&quot;, my second reaction is the same but with a paragraph of text explaining the reasons he&#x27;s an asshole.
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sdfhbdf超过 2 年前
I think the author focused too much on the “it’s in German” argumetn. All other problems listed with the process do not shine that much when people in comments focus on that: a foreigner should not expect a country to conduct its legal proceedings in a language different to their native.<p>On a different note I found the tone of the article a little appalling with author’s dismissive attitude like “What is a Notary? I’m not sure”, “ I have not checked, but I strongly doubt…”.<p>One does not start a company every other day so this process requires attention and not checking or not researching certain things demonstrates little patience and “I know better” attitude that is harmful down the line.<p>It would be interesting to see the author research why some things are the way they are, there is always a historic reason that might be valid or not in the current age, but it’s good to understand before we critique.
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quonn超过 2 年前
I did it, it&#x27;s very easy. It just requires opening a bank account and then an appointment at the notary. All in all it takes about two hours. Obviously in Germany the documents are in German, this should not be a surprise. Most people doing business there will speak German and I&#x27;m sure many lawyers would help those who do not with the setup.<p>edit: Yes, you need a tax accountant to do your taxes later, but that&#x27;s not related to registering. They also can do your normal accounting which you will need if you pay salaries. It&#x27;s normal in most countries.
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SeanLuke超过 2 年前
My wife and I live in the United States but got married in Italy at her hometown city hall. She is Italian and I am American. She wanted to do this badly, but for an American and an Italian to get married in Italy is an extraordinarily complicated process. It involved having witnesses present themselves at the US Embassy (conveniently we&#x27;re in DC) to vouchsafe that I am not already married, and to have witnesses to vouchsafe for my witnesses. It also involved a huge back-and-forth between the embassy and the local city hall in my wife&#x27;s hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority. I had to go through some weird procedure because I was having a civil and not catholic church wedding. I had to have wedding vows drawn up in both Italian and English, and have a person available to translate in real time to make sure that I understood my vows (because apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not). The entire thing required numerous notorizations, forms, and literally dozens of people along the way apologizing for the suffocating Italian bureaucray which of course, they were part of.<p>Along the entire way <i>every single bureaucrat</i> asked me the exact same question:<p>&quot;Why don&#x27;t you just get married in the US?&quot;
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mtmail超过 2 年前
Creating 3x a personal company for the founders is not a required step. Germany expects those personal companies to be conducting business so it&#x27;s all those steps like a &quot;real&quot; company. The 3 founders could&#x27;ve just created the real GmbH company and be 3 shareholders.<p>The founders also could&#x27;ve created a UG (mini-GmbH), plenty of startups do. It&#x27;s no clear from the blog post why they do the real GmbH. Possibly because a mini-GmbH can&#x27;t be owned by 3 personal companies. Well, sure, in that case you need those 25000 Euro on the bank account.<p>Transparenzregister (transparency registry) was new in 2021. The notary should&#x27;ve done that step. Germany kind of added the registry so people can&#x27;t hide behind personal companies when doing business.<p>Chamber of Commerce for an IT company is weird indeed. Makes sense for businesses that need special permissions, certifications or have regional limits (let&#x27;s say pharmacies) but not IT.<p>Think of Gewerbeamt as local taxes vs federal taxes. Gewerbeamt is your city taxes. While federal tax rate is the same everywhere, city tax rate differs and allows them to compete a bit.<p>&quot;so we had to agree with our investors that we would transfer the remaining 12,500€ over the next couple of years.&quot; Strange to have investors and then not have them pay the full amount. They&#x27;re saving money here, true, but then shouldn&#x27;t complain that this part of the process is not straight-forward.<p>Using a tax accountant for a GmbH company is not required. The author doesn&#x27;t seem to grasp even the function of some of the contracts he signed so he should of course use a professional to file the annual accounts forms.<p>If you have money from investors and skip many of the steps: buy a holding company, costs 5000 Euro. You pay 30000 Euro and receive a ready-for-you company with bank account of 25000 Euro. Then go to a notary and have, in a single document, change the company name, change the shareholders, move it to the desired city.
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rapht超过 2 年前
My company is in the process of buying out a German group.<p>To do that, we needed to set up a new holding company which would own the target group&#x27;s shares.<p>Without exception, <i>ALL</i> our advisors&#x2F;lawyers (both in Germany and out) recommended that we just pay the services of an &quot;offshore provider&quot; to buy an existing shell company with an already established and registered proxy director, instead of going through the creation process of a GmbH. &quot;It&#x27;s the most complicated process in the EU, and a PITA for all individuals involved.&quot;, they said.<p>We followed their advice.
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tgsovlerkhgsel超过 2 年前
Shutting it down will also take something like 1-2 years (gotta give any creditors time to file claims, is the official reason, I think), in which you again have to file the tax paperwork, paying a tax advisor to do it for you if you don&#x27;t also want to become an expert on tax law aside from whatever your actual expertise is that you wanted to run a company for.<p>The Transparenzregister was new to me, but at least it only seems to consume an hour or so of your time and no additional money.<p>Basically, you can&#x27;t afford to start a company if you just want to try something out, because the bureaucracy costs will outstrip your actual operating costs in the first year (which, for many IT people, are a domain and a laptop) and be a significant burden. Unless you go into it with &quot;here&#x27;s my capital, and here is my plan to turn this into the next unicorn&quot;, you&#x27;re more likely to just give up before you even seriously think about the idea.
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dark-star超过 2 年前
Basically &quot;entitled American complains that doing serious business in a country that has an official language other than English is not done in English&quot;<p>&gt; I could have signed away one of my kidneys for all I know. It’s in German<p>what dod you expect? French? Why should Germany do their legal business in English? Most countries do all their legal stuff in their official language. Try buying a cellphone in Japan, you think they have their forms in English? Or German? No. It&#x27;s all Japanese.
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inspirerhetoric超过 2 年前
I went through the Elster &quot;Frageboden zur Steuerlichen Erfassung&quot; for a GmbH yesterday and can confirm that it&#x27;s a nightmare. I can find no way to register a company successfully that will not generate Umsatzsteuer (VAT Taxes) due to developing software for non-EU&#x2F;US customers. It seems that there is a difference between Steuerbare (revenues that can be VAT-taxed) and Steuerfreie (revenues that could be taxed, but per law aren&#x27;t) Umsätze, as well as Steuerermässigte (reduced tax rate) revenues, but as far as I can tell the form only covers the latter two cases and not the first one. If you try to register a company with revenues but no VAT tax expected you get this wonderfully German sentence: &quot;Der auf einen Jahresgesamtumsatz hochgerechnete voraussichtliche Umsatz im Gründungsjahr übersteigt die Grenze des § 19 Absatz 1 UStG und der Fragebogen zur steuerlichen Erfassung enthält keine Angaben zu gegebenenfalls darin enthaltenen steuerfreien Umsätzen.. Die Kleinunternehmerregelung kann daher weder in Anspruch genommen werden noch kann darauf ein Verzicht erklärt werden.&quot;. Translation: Your expected revenue is higher than the amount for the small-enterpreneuer taxation scheme but you did not list tax-freed revenues, for this reason you can neither avail yourself nor disavail yourself of the tax scheme for small entrepreneuers&quot;. LOL. I love my country but it urgently needs to liberalize its labor and capital markets - with corporate tax rates amongst the highest in the world and bureaucracy like this, it is unnecessarily slowing economic growth and opportunities for ordinary citizens.
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quonn超过 2 年前
Being German myself, German government sucks at all things digital and that would be my main complaint. They still work with FAX machines and you often have to either use that or show up in person. Should be replaced by apps or similar.<p>The processes themselves are actually quite easy and efficient. Certainly not more difficult than in other countries. I have lived and dealt with paperwork in the US, various European countries, Asia and South America, so I think I can compare.
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fefe23超过 2 年前
Do put this into perspective a bit: The 25000€ are the capital up to which you limit your liability. Yes you have to have it because you are liable up to it. GmbH is not just a promise that you won&#x27;t be liable for more. It is also a promise that you have the money to cover your liabilities. If you don&#x27;t, you have to tell the authorities immediately and your company is insolvent.<p>No you don&#x27;t need a UG for each founder.<p>Yes, this shit is complicated, but it&#x27;s that way for a reason. In Germany having a GmbH is like a badge of honor and reliability. It means you are an upstanding businessman. People usually trust a GmbH more than a non-limited-liability company (GBR) even though with a GBR the founder is liable with his personal wealth without limit. Because for a GmbH you know they at least put down the 25k.<p>The IHK stuff is very unpopular in Germany, too. Nobody likes the IHK. It&#x27;s like a guild thing from the middle ages. It&#x27;s here for historical reasons. It&#x27;s legacy shit we haven&#x27;t gotten rid of yet.<p>The forms and the registers are there for a reason, too, even the Bundesanzeiger stuff. That means if you deal with a GmbH, you know the founder needed to pull their pants down in front of a public register. If you get scammed, you can find out who the proprietors are, the authorities know who they are, and they can actually be held liable.<p>The British tradition is very different from the German one. In Britain you could historically change your name just by using a different name. Criminals and scam artists made use of this.<p>The German tradition is that your name is known to the state, in fact you get an ID card with your name and photo on it. If people don&#x27;t trust you, they might ask to see it. Your name is serious business. It carries weight. If someone knows your name, the law can get to you. There are no credit cards accidentally issued to dogs in Germany.<p>So while to you this may look like useless bureaucracy, it is really a cascaded &quot;Are you really sure you want to do this? You will be liable for your actions. There are rules here. They will apply to you whether you know them or not.&quot;<p>All that said: You can actually buy a &quot;GmbH-Mantel&quot;. Someone else did all the leg work, and you just buy the empty shell of a company which will be renamed and assigned to your name then. This can be done within a few days AFAIK.
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WalterBright超过 2 年前
The last time I started a business in Washington State, it involved putting the company name and address on a form, attaching a check for $50, and mailing it to the government.
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7373737373超过 2 年前
Recent discussion: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020) - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31601638" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31601638</a><p>The entire process is a disgrace
throwaway2037超过 2 年前
&quot;Germany is ranked 22 among 190 economies in the ease of doing business, according to the latest World Bank annual ratings.&quot;<p>Ref: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradingeconomics.com&#x2F;germany&#x2F;ease-of-doing-business" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradingeconomics.com&#x2F;germany&#x2F;ease-of-doing-business</a>
watwut超过 2 年前
I find it super normal that forms are in the official language of the country. That is whole point of official language - language in which you communicate officially.
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vikramkr超过 2 年前
That is a wildly complicated process - but it sounds like the advice was to incorporate somewhere else where it&#x27;s easier instead? I guess that&#x27;s fine with the common market? Why not just do that instead of going through all this hassle?
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formerly_proven超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s German bureaucracy, of course it&#x27;s incomprehensible, slow and in person.
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rsp1984超过 2 年前
Sounds challenging but in fact this is only playing on intermediate difficulty!<p>The <i>real</i> fun begins when you want a GmbH as a subsidiary of a foreign parent company (HQ is in the US for example). Now no bank will accept you as a business customer due to money laundering &#x2F; compliance reasons -- that is unless you&#x27;re already incorporated as GmbH. But guess what, to get the GmbH formed you need to show proof of deposit of the EUR 25k in share capital - in a bank account!<p>There&#x27;s a trick to break this chicken-and-egg and it involves a notary (of course!), putting 25k in cash in an envelope, writing down some numbers into a notebook and then storing that envelope in a safe place until you can deposit it in your bank acct.<p><i>Receive letter from the Bundesanzeiger Verlag (this translates to “people that send letters that look like a scam, but are in fact not a scam”).</i><p>Live long enough in Germany and you realise that it is, in fact, a scam. Just a legally sanctioned one. Same as IHK, Rundfunkgebuehr and overpriced mandatory work insurance for office workers.
DannyBee超过 2 年前
If you really believe business should only be conducted in the official language (ie not both official language and English), then it better be worth the cost. Nobody is going to go to trouble of learning your language to deal with your market unless it is worth it. Multiply this by lots of counties and languages and it means you are missing out unless you are large or important.<p>If your country wants foreign investment, you don&#x27;t attract people unless you meet them where they are (or, again, your market is really worth it).<p>On top of that, basically all international business between two companies will be done in English.<p>So in practice, it will be your countries&#x27; loss to establish these sorts of barriers.<p>Now, if your country is happy with the level of investment it gets from foreign small businesses, then great, nothing to do. But you won&#x27;t get to have it both ways.
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ho_schi超过 2 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tilores.io&#x2F;company" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tilores.io&#x2F;company</a><p><pre><code> ... were working together in the technology team of a German consumer credit bureau. </code></pre> I wonder about this paragraph. I assume someone with experience around consumer credits should be familar with bureaucracy. I assume also that everywhere in the world you will contract a company lawyer in advance as guidance?<p>The bureaucracy in Germany is overwhelming. The tax system is a daunting. And bureaucracy provides a common set of rules, protects people, environment and keeps frauds and bribes low. For example the strict notary system protects normal people.
sooyoo超过 2 年前
Thanks for posting this. I now know one more person who I&#x27;ll make sure to never work for. Such a chaotic, ill-informed and partially self-contradictory mess.<p>Yes there is some bureaucracy involved. No, not all of this makes sense. (Especially to somebody with only partial language familiarity despite the repeated claims to the contrary, but you are making it obvious that there are quite some deficiencies in your knowledge. Fun fact: A foreigner in the UK also won&#x27;t know all the English legalese.)<p>One of the points of all of this is to reduce the risk of something like FTX happening. That&#x27;s why those guys are in the Bahamas, not in Germany.
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wink超过 2 年前
Yeah maybe I&#x27;m either too old school or doing it wrong, but most of the people I know have not made a personal holding company. And not knowing that a GmbH needs a certain amount of capital is just... I dunno, did the author want to start a company and not even read the English Wikipedia article? But I have to admit all those GmbHs were founded before UG was a thing, so maybe my examples are bad.<p>The rest sounds accurate and I&#x27;m not happy, so I&#x27;m not defending anything here. But maybe read up for an hour before you go complaining.
iamsaitam超过 2 年前
Germans are completely unreasonable when it comes to their language. There&#x27;s no point in arguing with them. Next time, just open your company in Portugal (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;eportugal.gov.pt&#x2F;en&#x2F;servicos&#x2F;criar-uma-empresa-online" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;eportugal.gov.pt&#x2F;en&#x2F;servicos&#x2F;criar-uma-empresa-onlin...</a>), we don&#x27;t mind that you don&#x27;t speak our language (which has far more speakers worldwide than German).
Temporary_31337超过 2 年前
I can’t think of many reasons why a startup should incorporate in Germany sine you can have the company registered in any other EU country and have access to the same common EU market.
sai_c超过 2 年前
As someone who started his own company fifteen years ago I can relate. Being german, the process itself was not that much of a hassle. But the financial aspect of having to pay for so many things i do not need or want (IHK membership, Genossenschaft membership) was mind boggling.<p>There is a joke they tell you in Germany when you think about creating a company:<p>How do you make a million Euros in Germany? Take two and create a company.
fxtentacle超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s actually not. But you need to speak the language... Duh.<p>You make a notary appointment to sign a default company contract. You pay in the 25000€ for a GmbH (or less for an UG) onto a newly created bank account. You send the confirmation from the bank to the notary office and they&#x27;ll inform all relevant government agencies. About a week later you get a letter that your new company is ready to use.
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TheLoafOfBread超过 2 年前
Register a company in Estonia or Netherlands and do business in EU through there.
haywirez超过 2 年前
Registering already seems daunting but it&#x27;s nothing compared to what comes after - payroll, health insurers, taxes, dealing with import duties, various registrations, fax, constant cold sweat from missing important snail mail. The admin ordeal intensifies with unexpected twists and turns. Ask me in a few years if it was worth it.
secretsatan超过 2 年前
The UK is hardly a good example, the simple registration process made the UK a world leader in money laundering.
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germandiago超过 2 年前
Bureaucracy and wish of control is sinking european economies in my opinion. In Spain it is also a hell to do business, worse than Germany I think.<p>Many of the things that happen in Europe are the consequence of slow decisions, lack of capacity, yet the taxes are high. This is destroying the economy in a great measure, together with high tax rates.<p>In Spain for example, court is suuuuper slow, medical care is slower than before, we have a really relevant problem with property occupation, yet the law does not let you even put them out your own home and you have to pay the bills! Even a private company became really famous for doing this, that should be done by the administration.<p>To open a company, get ready...<p>And things are just getting worse, not better.<p>I hate bureaucrats, politicians and taxes with all my soul. I think they create a lot of problems.
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KingOfCoders超过 2 年前
&quot;I have heard it is even the same for buying a house &quot;<p>I bought a house in Germany. It felt safe.<p>By coincident there was a story about the UK how there is so few process to sell a house, that it&#x27;s a common fraud to sell houses you do not own.<p>I prefer the German way to the UK way.
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19h超过 2 年前
The difference to other countries is that the notary essentially can revoke their notarization of your company and thereby voiding it (which I am not aware has ever happened), if they at any point decide you lied to them.<p>Germany has companies going back to the 15th century so a lot of the company founding processes have been grandfathered in over hundreds of years.<p>I’m actually somewhat happy about the notaries because they essentially commit to keeping a copy of your contract in eternity (until they dissolve), so you can always be assured that you can get a copy of your founding contract at any time.
charlesdm超过 2 年前
Perhaps it&#x27;s more streamlined in the UK, but generally in Europe you will have to go to a notary.<p>The process is often 1) notary (incorporation deed creates the entity), 2) followed by setting up a bank account (get the initial capital in) and 3) do some additional registrations for your new entity, such as corporate and VAT number.<p>While it can take a while depending on the country, it in all honesty isn&#x27;t as bad as portrayed. But since he was setting up a holding entity to hold the shares before he could incorporate his actual operating company, he had to go through it twice.
cranium超过 2 年前
In Switzerland you also need to have a notary to register the company. However, some companies saw the opportunity to streamline the process and offer a Notary-as-a-Service so you create the company from home (mostly) and don&#x27;t need to interact with the notary. You have to sign a Power of Attorney so the company takes care of most of the paperwork. The process is quite easy if your company structure is simple (eg. initial balance of 20kCHF is only cash, shares split equally between founders, one type of shares,...).
AHASIC超过 2 年前
I can confirm that it takes around 6 months to open a GmbH, having done it myself here in Germany. It is a complex process even though I had an accountant the whole time as well as a notary.
choeger超过 2 年前
Founding a limited-liability company with a builtin tax-evasion scheme is more complicated than it needs to be? I. am. Shocked.<p>Here&#x27;s a suggestion: Pay your taxes or hire some consultant or lawyer to do the oh so complicated process for you. If you want things nice and simple you can simply <i>buy</i> a prefab GmbH:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gruenderplattform.de&#x2F;unternehmen-gruenden&#x2F;vorratsgesellschaft" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gruenderplattform.de&#x2F;unternehmen-gruenden&#x2F;vorratsges...</a><p>Oh, sorry, that&#x27;s in German again.
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t8sr超过 2 年前
During covid WFH, my partner and I moved to Berlin for three months to study German. We stayed on the seventh floor of a nice apartment building, where the elevator broke on the second day of our stay. The owner of the apartment offered us some money as compensation, but kindly informed us that repairing the elevator would require a vote by all the people who own the building together and might take a few months to organize. (By the time we left three months later, it still hadn&#x27;t been repaired.)<p>One day I was in the same classroom with someone who later tested positive for covid19, and the school told us to go home and check with the health authorities about self-isolating. They started us off with a website and a covid hotline phone number, and off we all went. None of the students had the German covid app, because Robert Koch Institute (German CDC) hadn&#x27;t made it available outside of the German App Store because of invented reasons that no other country in Europe apparently had.<p>I spent the rest of that afternoon trying to find out how long to isolate. The information wasn&#x27;t available on any website, and the COVID hotline was disconnected, Finally, after finding a phone number at the city health office that was connected to someone who wasn&#x27;t on vacation (which, at any moment, is about 50% of German government employees), I learned that the rules differed per Borough of Berlin. I had to isolate for 48 hours. My classmate, three blocks down the road, for a week.<p>The same classmate later told me that she had moved to Berlin to work at a German company, but still hadn&#x27;t finished setting up her residency paperwork. The latest step at that time was receiving a letter from some German department, which she had to put in another envelope and send back, in order to receive another letter inviting her to set up an appointment to come and be interviewed.<p>A friend of mine visited Berlin while I was there - he was looking for a job and had an interview with a German company, who ended up having to hire engineers in the Netherlands, because the German government had banned the sale of some VR headsets in the country, which were needed for the job.<p>Our way back out of the country was through Prague by train. The train was several hours late, but a Deutsche Bahn employee told us we should feel lucky: the day before, there was no train.<p>Now, I&#x27;ve dealt with US government bureaucracy, I&#x27;ve dealt with Czech and Swiss bureaucracy, and my partner has had to deal with residency permits in the UK. None of these experiences compare. (Except, maybe, getting a Czech construction permit.) German bureaucracy is so, so much worse than people think. The Germans mostly have nothing to compare it to, and think it&#x27;s normal: it is not. And it&#x27;s costing the country real opportunities: companies that don&#x27;t get started, people who don&#x27;t end up moving there, repairs that don&#x27;t get done because it&#x27;s hard to organize some stupid paperwork. And it doesn&#x27;t have to be this way.
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odysseus超过 2 年前
Your rant reminds me about this article ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;superr.in&#x2F;economy&#x2F;i-tried-starting-a-manufacturing-unit-in-india&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;superr.in&#x2F;economy&#x2F;i-tried-starting-a-manufacturing-u...</a> ) - it might be even harder than what you went through.
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hoseja超过 2 年前
You can take colonies from the englishman but you can&#x27;t make englishman want to stop colonizing.
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marstall超过 2 年前
Curious what the process would be like to start a comparable company (an LLC maybe?) in the US? Certainly a bank account, notary, and town&#x2F;city official would have to be involved, and probably a lawyer and accountant.
mattymf超过 2 年前
Interesting article. This seems like a normal experience for any regulated industry selling abroad. Maybe this is the writer&#x27;s first professional working experience ever? Maybe I&#x27;m overly critical.
charcircuit超过 2 年前
I feel like this could be made automated. Why isn&#x27;t a forming a company harder that making a company account on YouTube, TikTok, etc. Does the government not care about the sign up flow?
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i5heu超过 2 年前
I have registered a UG in Germany as a 18yo and it was no problem at all. The taxes although... you don&#x27;t want to do them yourself.
superphil0超过 2 年前
Wow, i can&#x27;t believe that it is easier in Austria than in Germany. However, still way easier in UK..
etaioinshrdlu超过 2 年前
Surely the author is exaggerating every time he mentions &quot;go to prison&quot;?
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jillesvangurp超过 2 年前
I went through the process of registering an UG for the second time last year. So, this time I was better prepared for the process.<p>First, I got a lot of value out of this web site: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.firma.de&#x2F;en&#x2F;company-formation&#x2F;registering-a-limited-liability-company-in-germany-gmbh-or-ug-heres-how&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.firma.de&#x2F;en&#x2F;company-formation&#x2F;registering-a-limi...</a><p>It explains the various steps that are needed and their inter dependencies. In short, you are expected to know and act on this stuff and not be caught by surprise by any of it. Failing to act means the process derails for a few weeks&#x2F;months until you fix it. And fixing it is exclusively your problem. So, read up.<p>Getting angry at the process is pointless. It is what it is. There are no short cuts. But the flip side is that it&#x27;s a very predictable process. This is Germany after all and unquestioningly following convoluted processes to the letter is what they excel in. Yes, it doesn&#x27;t make any sense whatsoever but if you play along and it ends up being fine.<p>A few things to be aware of:<p>- There&#x27;s a chicken egg problem where you need a paper with stamp to open a bank account, a bank account to prove that your company has enough means to pay it&#x27;s bills, and that proof to go to notary so they can register your company. Typical German solution: wave some cash at the notary and they&#x27;ll wink at you and take your word for it and register your company. Likewise you can actually open the bank account before you get the paperwork done.<p>- Then the real work starts of registering with the Gewerbeamt, the transparency register, and the tax office. They all need the company to be registered first of course.<p>- German banks are pretty bad. Use one of the online more modern outfits. I&#x27;ve had a Commerzbank (I used them the first time, big mistake) employee explain to me once that the paper I needed was archived on microfiche in some basement. This was after weeks of trying to get them to produce said paper work which I needed for my taxes. Classic &quot;the dog ate my homework&quot; situation. We showed up in person to basically ask WTF?! and then they grudgingly admitted they could actually send somebody down to the basement to sort it out. So, this time, I used an online company called Penta (since merged with another player) and the whole process was super smooth. Bank account ready for action after a simple online verification process. By far the fastest thing in the whole process. I actually had this ready before I even went to the notary. I still had to wave cash at them because that&#x27;s the process. And then I sent them confirmation that I put that cash in the bank account. Which unblocked the registration.<p>- Speaking of money, this whole process has a lot of hidden cost. Make sure you capitalize your UG to pay for: IHK (chamber of commerce), the notary, the accountant, your company bank account and a few other things. A personal loan is the way to do it. Put 3K aside for this.<p>- The process is not quick. Even doing everything in the right order, it took me nearly to the deadline my bank set for getting the right paper work to them (in digital form). The tax number and the ihk paper with the stamped company registration. Both took many weeks for some reason. End to end, it took me nearly 4 months. Most of that is just waiting for bureaucrats to do whatever it is they do and push the right buttons.<p>- I tracked all the steps in an issue tracker. It starts out simple but every step generates more steps. Basically all I did was track the known but unsolved steps I knew I had to take. Fill in this form, get that paper with a stamp, contact this or that agency. About 20 steps.<p>As for language. It&#x27;s a mix of German and English. Get some people to help you with the German stuff. No way around that.
callamdelaney超过 2 年前
25,000euros to just register a company? That&#x27;s hilariously stupid.
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nilslindemann超过 2 年前
Ob wir Deutschen wohl Weltmeister im Einfach-sein werden könnten?
eisbaw超过 2 年前
Turns out bureaucracy is just real-life micro-services.
KingOfCoders超过 2 年前
Founding a UG to own a GmbH is for tax avoidance.
INTPenis超过 2 年前
I know people who have left their european country for another just to start their business, because it was way too much bureaucracy. It&#x27;s kinda sad because they want a more free market so they leave their welfare state for this reason. But I kinda understand it too. So as a proponent of socialism I&#x27;m kinda torn. I just think we could still allow these companies the freedom to operate as long as we had safeguards in place to ensure the freedom and dignity of citizens first and foremost, always before corporations.
SuperSandro2000超过 2 年前
and despite all this crap, Germany somehow is still relevant in the world. Baffling.
personomas超过 2 年前
Welcome to socialism. Everything has to be &quot;fair&quot;, so we give the money to the Notar, IHK, Berufsgenossenschaft, etc etc
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Stention314超过 2 年前
I did this and found it reasonable easy to create it.<p>It has a sensible layer of complexity for what you get out of it.<p>Your German rant is still stupid, no one would do that manually or would otherwise just take the time and effort to learn what is necessary.<p>Unfortunately for this discussion I have no clue how the UK version really compares to the German one and I also don&#x27;t know from a statistical point of view if this is a real problem.<p>After all just creating some company implies a lot of things you need to know anyway like doing the taxes right and doing all other critical things like the yearly get together with all participants.
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