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The scourge of job title inflation

155 点作者 i13e超过 2 年前

56 条评论

robocat超过 2 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;Ms9Tq" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;Ms9Tq</a>
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paxys超过 2 年前
I have seen this happen more and more in tech as well. Engineers join a company right out of college, are promoted to &quot;senior&quot; in a couple of years, and &quot;staff&quot; another two or three years after that. Now because everyone is staff you have to keep making up fancier titles – senior staff, principal engineer, technical lead, architect, senior architect, chief of staff, partner engineer, distinguished engineer, technical fellow...<p>I asked a higher up why this was the case, and the response was simply that people quit if they aren&#x27;t promoted quick enough. Titles are free, and smaller companies have zero problems handing them out like candy to keep people happy.
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jedberg超过 2 年前
I was just talking to someone about this the other day. I personally don&#x27;t care what my title is, as far as things like self-worth and ego are concerned. But what I do care about is scope of work and who I get to influence with my work. And for that, it seems like most everyone <i>else</i> cares about titles. And so I&#x27;m forced to care too if I want to get done what I need to get done.<p>Up until recently everyone at Netflix was a Senior Software Engineer if they were an individual contributor. This worked great within Netflix, as you just did what you needed to do and everyone respected that you were doing the right thing. But it was troublesome if you ever wanted to leave Netflix, because you may have been doing what Principle Engineers do at other companies, but when you apply there they tell you &quot;Well you were a Senior Engineer so the best we can do is Staff Engineer&quot;. Until it became well known what Netflix was doing, it was hard to get even an equivalent set of duties elsewhere.
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bane超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s almost beyond unreal. In the past two weeks I&#x27;ve had multiple discussions about promoting staff with 1-3 years of experience in this, their first job out of undergrad, into positions that have typically required 15-20 years of broad industry experience with various responsibilities or accomplishments (successful P&amp;L management, regarding in their field, etc.).<p>My management has basically just shrugged, &quot;it&#x27;s the market right now&quot; without considering any long-term ramifications. I&#x27;d almost be fine with it if the rising tide lifted all boats, but it seems to be highly particular to the incoming &lt;5 years of experience people.<p>Before too long, I&#x27;m going to end up working for people who know almost nothing, and don&#x27;t even have the experience to know it. That&#x27;ll be the moment I retire.
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roland35超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t see title inflation being too big an issue at large companies. At my megacorp we have fairly well defined expectations at each level and managers calibrate across teams. It&#x27;s basically:<p>- junior, fresh out of school and is basically expected to do whatever task they are told to<p>- mid, a few years in and can define their own work within a project<p>- senior (many stop here), can manage their own projects, but limited influence outside the team. Expected to mentor juniors and work with partners<p>- staff, a lot less coding, lots of digital ink spilled recently on what staff engineers do :) basically influence the entire team and help set technical direction<p>- principal, basically a mega staff engineer, influences a larger organization. Called in to solve the hairiest problems.<p>- senior principal, can bend spacetime at will
combatentropy超过 2 年前
It reminds me of Newspeak, from Orwell&#x27;s <i>1984</i>. Leaders, especially of bureaucracies, perennially hope to shape belief by just renaming things.<p>I&#x27;ve been to Wal-Mart or Target or any number of places, where I have read a sign or overheard a prerecorded announcement referring to the workers as &quot;team members&quot;, &quot;associates&quot;, &quot;specialists&quot;, &quot;customer advocates&quot;, and so on. The illusion dissipates instantaneously. I immediately see it as pretentious, and the reflex is to cringe. I suspect that most employees roll their eyes at it too.<p>I don&#x27;t believe that the executives who came up with these fancy names are fooled by them either --- and that&#x27;s part of the problem, it&#x27;s condescending. The executive thinks, &quot;I see right through these words, into the real thing, but my employees and customers are stupider than me, and I believe these names can sway their thinking.&quot;<p>Another problem is that it is just like inflation, in that it doesn&#x27;t stop spiraling upward. I believe that the word &quot;employee&quot; was once a fancy replacement for something plainer, like &quot;worker&quot;. But H.R. told me, when I was making an app for them, that it&#x27;s a dirty word: We don&#x27;t &quot;employ&quot; people. That makes it sound like we are using them. (Well, you are, but they know you are, and after all you are paying them. It was all agreed upon at the outset. Also it&#x27;s not so bad. Everyone wants, in the end, to be &quot;useful&quot;.) But no, now they are called &quot;associates&quot;. It won&#x27;t end. There is even a chance that it will go in circles. I would not be surprised if some years later, a new executive arrives, says &quot;associate&quot; is too loose: &quot;They aren&#x27;t merely associated with us in some tangential way. We need them and employ them for our success. Let us call them &#x27;employees&#x27;.&quot;
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hintymad超过 2 年前
A friend of mine, who works at Amazon as a principal engineer, also mentioned that Amazon had been inflating title too. Per his words, Sr. SDE in Amazon used to be a big deal. People usually got such title after &gt; 10 years of grinding, and they would be happy to stay in that title forever. Principal engineers were treated like demigods. There was even a page on Amazon wiki that cautioned new principal engineers not to think of themselves so. But now engineers expected to get promoted to principal in three years after being promoted to L6. An L6 engineers could be promoted to L7 if they could launch a product.
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galmactima超过 2 年前
We need to have some kind of standard in the industry. It&#x27;s just like how here in Canada we have the plague of regulatory bodies given the legal right to make it illegal to call yourself &quot;Software Engineer&quot; as a protected term unless you have a B.Eng. and spend 3 years in gov&#x27;t controlled training programs. What a joke. What we really need to do is set up some fucking standards so that braindead developers can&#x27;t cheese their way into industry and get promoted to &quot;Senior Developer&quot; by writing mediocre, barely functional JavaScript code among other monkey-brained developers writing barely functional code of a similar caliber. It&#x27;s becoming an epidemic of self-taught bootcamp idiots who&#x27;re destroying the industry and decimating uptime and availability which competent developers are then required to fix on-call, and I&#x27;m tired of pretending it&#x27;s not.
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civilized超过 2 年前
The finance sector started this decades ago. A Vice President is just a spreadsheet slinger and there are at least five different kinds of Director.
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rapjr9超过 2 年前
Acadamia often makes up inflated titles for themselves in several ways. A professor starts an &quot;institute&quot; which is just a banner slapped on their work, and now they are the &quot;Director of the Institute for the Study of...&quot;. Or they get a donation from some rich person and they add the rich persons name as a title, as in &quot;I. Am Important, the Dovey and Sam Pekinpaw professor of Engineering&quot;. Or they join a group of their colloborators and give out awards to themselves and add the award names to their titles as in &quot;I. Also Important, the International Superior Professor&quot;. Or they give their group of grad students and their workspace a name as in &quot;Aint I. Great, Director of the Great Research Lab&quot;. Many of them collect multiple such titles which can make their titles go on to fill a large paragraph. Some of the titles have merit, some are selling their name to get donations, some are entirely made up.<p>You can do the same. Take your side project, call it a company, and now you are CEO of that company. You don&#x27;t even need to incorporate the company or give info about it (you are in &quot;stealth mode&quot;).
thenoblesunfish超过 2 年前
The article doesn&#x27;t seem to make a very strong case for the severity of this &quot;scourge&quot;. Just like grades or degrees mean little without knowing about the school they came from, job titles, especially their implied seniority, don&#x27;t mean much without knowledge of the company. Is this a problem worth worrying about, or just a fun rant?
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balderdash超过 2 年前
This has become a pretty prickly issue that I’ve seen in mergers where one company has title inflation and the other doesn’t.<p>What’s perverse is that while having an inflated title may be a benefit with regards to external lateral employment, it’s a huge detriment to internal advancement as employees with inflated titles aren’t qualified for roles their title might imply, but aren’t considered for what could actually be career advancing roles as they’re considered too “senior” on a title basis
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mberning超过 2 年前
I’m more concerned with skillset deflation. It’s super common to run in to people with 10 years experience, a nice resume, and an impressive title that can’t do much of anything.
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version_five超过 2 年前
I think it&#x27;s in &quot;Managing the professional service firm&quot; by Maister that he talks about giving people various titles so they can&#x27;t really compare themselves within a firm. Famously (maybe) there is a scene in <i>The Office</i> where Dwight and Andy square off as Assistant Regional Manager and Managing Director in charge of sales, and each thinks their title places them above the other. There&#x27;s an element of this in the article, which I think is different than the Walmart Associate &#x2F; Metamate thing which I think is somehow meant to instill comaraderie. And then there is the actual inflation - &quot;lead&quot; is the new one I see. Are you <i>a</i> lead or <i>the</i> lead. Nowadays it&#x27;s almost always the former, and it means you have about two years experience, like most current uses of <i>senior</i>
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twiddling超过 2 年前
The amount of folks with titles that contain executive, manager, and&#x2F;or director but have no direct reports or hire&#x2F;fire has truly ballooned.
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theshrike79超过 2 年前
In my opinion titles should be for communicating your approximate skill&#x2F;experience level to people inside and outside the company who already don&#x27;t know you.<p>But this falls down when I, with over 20 years of actual work experience, am a &quot;Senior Server Engineer&quot; and I talk with a &quot;Principal Server Engineer&quot; from India who has problems logging in to AWS and checking CloudWatch logs.<p>Titles shouldn&#x27;t be a reward used instead of pay rises or just for being in the company long enough. You shouldn&#x27;t become Principal Software Architect just by being in the same job for a decade.
bitwize超过 2 年前
I switched jobs recently and took a step down in title. My pay increased and the team dynamic and management is decidedly less toxic than my previous job, so... win overall!
mkl95超过 2 年前
Job title inflation is an inverse function of compensation and inequality. When a few people are getting paid a ton of money and you are not being paid much, getting a &quot;promotion&quot; is one of the few ways to land a highly paid position. If your current company gives you more responsibility without increasing your pay, you can usually switch jobs for a higher salary.
pflenker超过 2 年前
Fun fact: one of the accused in the fraud scandal around Wirecard claims that he had no important role in the company, as evidenced by his „fantasy title“: Deputy CFO.<p>Source in German: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;wirtschaft&#x2F;wirecard-prozess-verteidigung-103.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;wirtschaft&#x2F;wirecard-prozess-vertei...</a>
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BurningFrog超过 2 年前
One of the perks of working at a tiny and probably doomed startup is that everyone can be &quot;Senior VP&quot; of whatever they want :)
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mouzogu超过 2 年前
&gt; &quot;When money is tight, a bump in title is a way of <i>recognising someone’s efforts cheaply</i>.&quot;<p>that&#x27;s the real scourge right there.<p>&gt; &quot;Baristas at Starbucks are called “partners”...to create a sense of shared endeavour and <i>to disguise the cold reality of corporate hierarchies</i>. &quot;
alfalfasprout超过 2 年前
This is already a rampant issue in software engineering and means that there&#x27;s an enormous gamut of what &quot;Sr. Software Engineer&quot; means between someone who knows how to &quot;code&quot; and someone who can solve large technical problems at an organizational level.
jemmyw超过 2 年前
That was something that could have done with analysis rather than a very short article pointing out that its a thing. I&#x27;d be interested to know if it really is a thing. For all I know this has always happened and the language around these titles are just a little different.
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trilobyte超过 2 年前
This was a headache for me when I had teams reporting to me from Mumbai. I had to create artificial layers of job titles that didn&#x27;t exist in any of our other regions because there was an expectation of moving up on a regular cadence.<p>On one hand it rubbed me the wrong way personally, but that&#x27;s not a big deal and something I could get over, but on the other hand I was regularly having to explain to team members in other regions why promotions in Mumbai were happening so much faster than everywhere else. It was a people and perception problem, but still had people who couldn&#x27;t let it go.
rabuse超过 2 年前
I absolutely abhor job titles, but in the corporate world, especially when seeking new employment and building that buzzword-laden resume, it&#x27;s an unfortunate reality.
jschveibinz超过 2 年前
If you could specify, model, design, build, document, promote, test and verify a solution—-whether that was in software or any other field—-then you were an “engineer” in the sense that the title was used in the 20th century.<p>In the 21st century, the term “engineer” has lost that meaning and it is now used mostly to identify programming professionals of various skill levels.
gtramont超过 2 年前
Reminds me of the late David Graeber&#x27; BS Jobs: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20220901173213&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.strike.coop&#x2F;bullshit-jobs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20220901173213&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.strik...</a> and the book that followed.
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tabtab超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m not a troll, I&#x27;m an &quot;agitation engineer!&quot;
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dave4420超过 2 年前
&gt; Puffed-up titles may put good candidates off.<p>This is absolutely true. If someone is advertising for a VP of software engineering but asking for a skill set that matches mine, I conclude that they don’t know what they’re doing.
theBobBob超过 2 年前
I work in a smallish company (around 150 employees I believe) and we recently went through this career framework development and standardisation and as part of that we came up with standard levels and titles across the company but we had to make an exception for our USA office. They would all still have the standard titles internally for pay bands, career progression etc but because of customer expectations, everyone had to be a VP of this or Senior VP of that where VP elsewhere in the company was a very senior position. Kinda funny really.
epage超过 2 年前
My first job out of college had 3 basic titles that broke down into<p>- New grad, takes more than give<p>- Individual contributor<p>- Team technical lead<p>I really liked it as it was clear what the roles where and how to move up. We kept running into problems with people wanting smaller career milestones. Unsure if it was due to smaller milestones from college, gamification, or what.<p>Since that company switched titles to match industry and at each job since, job titles have been a mystery to me.
glonq超过 2 年前
I just left a project where I architected the system and managed multiple dev teams for two years. The manager who replaced me is doing maintenance and updates with a pared-down team, yet took &quot;principal software architect&quot; as his job title -- which is definitely a loftier title than I took.<p>Maybe I need to ask my boss for a &quot;title raise&quot; ;)
jmclnx超过 2 年前
Years ago I realized titles mean nothing these days. Everyone new hire out of school where I work is hired as a &quot;senior programmer&quot;.<p>About the only thing that does not happen is a significant pay increase, but the titles with promotion keep getting more grandiose, pay, maybe a 0.5% increase if any.
harimau777超过 2 年前
I think that a lot of the problem is that programmers are treated like expendable cogs to be run as fast as possible until they burn out and are replaced. So people desperately race up the title ladder in an attempt to get to the point where they aren&#x27;t treated like crap.
jcolman超过 2 年前
This is a rant in search of a problem to solve. It doesn’t make a strong case for a “scourge”. The issues it points out have less to do with title inflation and more to do with bad leadership, planning, and comms.
qwertyuiop_超过 2 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bullseyeinteractivegroup.com&#x2F;forms&#x2F;B2B-Email-Marketing-List-of-Titles.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bullseyeinteractivegroup.com&#x2F;forms&#x2F;B2B-Email-Mar...</a>
ugurnot超过 2 年前
There are people who join to chess tournaments in small countries, just to obtain the GM or IM titles. Those titles are hard to obtain in bigger tournaments. Not the same thing, but they belong to the same cluster.
cowlby超过 2 年前
Obligatory &quot;The Inflation of Everything&quot; from 2012<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.economist.com&#x2F;leaders&#x2F;2012&#x2F;04&#x2F;07&#x2F;the-perils-of-panflation" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.economist.com&#x2F;leaders&#x2F;2012&#x2F;04&#x2F;07&#x2F;the-perils-of-p...</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;mrEtL" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;mrEtL</a>
noyesno超过 2 年前
Reminds me of my favorite Dilbert comic on promotions in title: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dilbert.com&#x2F;strip&#x2F;2000-08-02" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dilbert.com&#x2F;strip&#x2F;2000-08-02</a>
pfoof超过 2 年前
There was that meme about LinkedIn:<p>- LinkedIn: Blockchain Evangelist, Serial Entrepreneur, AI in Web3 Enthusiast, ex-IoT Devices Department Manager<p>- Reality: unemployed, failed in 5 businesses, but bought some Philips Hue lightbulbs
pizzaknife超过 2 年前
when i was 16, i held a position at now defunct Kmart, which i candidly referred to as &#x27;Stock Logistics Technician&quot;<p>yes, i was a stock-boy. i suppose i was part of the problem from an early age.<p>on topic - my only real complaints about title inflation are 2 fold: first, interview screens; second, annimosity generated within departments between engineers holding the perception they &quot;are better&quot; than x yet x has a &quot;higher&quot; title. both are frustrating situations
xyzelement超过 2 年前
I learned a while ago to ground the seniority conversation in comp. Titles are whatever, how much you are willing to pay me is a better indicator of the scope and impact you expect.
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welder超过 2 年前
In bay area big tech, eng titles are tied to levels and if you don&#x27;t move up then you&#x27;re let go. Naturally people work hard to level up, which also comes with a new title.
jdlyga超过 2 年前
I get this a lot. On paper, I&#x27;m a technical director of software development. This sounds like I&#x27;m a manager, but in practice I&#x27;m a senior software engineer.
jmclnx超过 2 年前
Deleted, I was aming for an emacs thread<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33951866" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33951866</a>
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dhosek超过 2 年前
When I was hired to work for a bank, the offer had a title of “Vice President.” I almost turned it down because I was worried that they were offering me a management role.
jdmtheNth超过 2 年前
&quot;Sanitation expert and a maintenance engineer<p>Garbage man, a janitor and you my dear<p>A real union flight attendant, my oh my<p>You ain&#x27;t nothin&#x27; but a waitress in the sky&quot;<p>Waitress in the Sky, by The Replacements.
politician超过 2 年前
I wonder if anyone has ever tried negotiating an inflated title as a severance benefit. That would really push this to the next level.
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smadge超过 2 年前
Does this apply to big tech companies, which usually have generic numbered “levels” which have a relatively fixed distribution?
RunSet超过 2 年前
When I encounter the term &quot;engineer&quot;, I take it to mean someone who, if they screw up, people die.<p>I know a &quot;Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer&quot; is a thing that exists, but it seems to me rather a contradiction in terms, suggestive as it is of an engineer who is expected or even required to make mistakes.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;CNr1vdD.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;CNr1vdD.png</a>
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MarchM超过 2 年前
You’re forgetting Chief Solution Architect… at an advertising agency.. wtf?
tigerlily超过 2 年前
Anyone think of any good joke job titles?<p>Here&#x27;s mine: Executive Professor
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t312227超过 2 年前
imho. this is an old wisdom:<p>titles are free<p>(and they are much cheaper than a pay-rise :))
1vuio0pswjnm7超过 2 年前
That opening paragraph is great.<p>&quot;Greetings Engineer II&quot;
Patrol8394超过 2 年前
Unfortunately, titles do matter.
no_wrk超过 2 年前
The Economist complaining about people having fancy job titles despite not doing the work is rich coming from the boot-lickiest of the capitalist bootlickers.