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Breaking up with Python

75 点作者 n8ta超过 2 年前

49 条评论

agolio超过 2 年前
&gt; Python’s documentation sucks<p>I can&#x27;t agree with this. I have always had a very good experience with python documentation. One can use the built-in &quot;help&quot; function which works seamlessly with the docstring feature of the language. The complaint in the blog post seems to refer to the UI of the website missing a table of contents for functions. Yeah sure they could add that but I don&#x27;t see it as a big point.<p>&gt; Python’s package management sucks<p>Hmm, it has some weaknesses but I wouldn&#x27;t really say it sucks. Going deeper -&gt;<p>&gt; Every project seems to use a different tool and it’s a massive headache. Off the top of my head there’s ...<p>Don&#x27;t all of these use pip under the hood? I personally use the lower-level pip and virtualenv tools, but some others enjoy the convenience of poetry. That&#x27;s a bit of personal preference. It&#x27;s a bit more akin to an IDE choice than a feature of the language. None of conda, poetry, etc. are core Python features.<p>&gt; Python’s standard library sucks<p>I have to disagree again, I think it is pretty well designed and minimal on purpose. The community additions of numpy, etc. are by design not part of the core language to reduce bloat.<p>&gt; Python is slow<p>OK sure, it is slower than compiled languages like C++, that is a concession we make when opting for the ease of readability, writability, usability, etc.<p>&gt; Python is huge, the python:3.9-slim Docker image is 118MB<p>Hmmm. 118MB isn&#x27;t really that big anymore. The docker image would presumably be cached and reused in a deployment pipeline.<p>&gt; Python syntax sucks.<p>This one I can&#x27;t even understand the reasoning for. The python syntax is what people love about it. I personally dislike the walrus operator, f-strings, and some of the other newer features (did they add the switch statement yet?) but those are my only gripes. And they are more pet-peeves &#x2F; personal preferences than complaints.
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decasia超过 2 年前
The thing is, every language has serious issues, whether usability issues, documentation issues, performance issues, community issues, standard library issues, dependency issues, whatever. And for every issue, there are some people who just don&#x27;t feel affected by it (or disagree that it is even an issue), and others who feel it deeply, to the point of outrage. So even if you ever get a consensus on what the issues are, there&#x27;s even less of a consensus on how much they matter and what to do with them. Some people can live with certain problems and others are really distracted or bothered by them. It depends hugely on the context and environmental constraints too (can your org switch languages? when? on what terms? etc).<p>I think there&#x27;s something deeply path dependent about how software people go through languages and fall in and out of love with them. Python was the first language I ever used professionally. It was amazing at the time compared to Java. But I haven&#x27;t touched it in years now and don&#x27;t especially want to. It&#x27;s not that I &quot;broke up&quot; with it -- I just went elsewhere and it wasn&#x27;t used there. You usually have to speak the local language wherever you go...<p>At a certain point, I think a lot of us give up on the idea of &quot;loving&quot; or &quot;not loving&quot; the language we use. They are all just tools. Some professional software people still have love affairs with their tools. That&#x27;s cool I guess, but I have to say, I&#x27;ve written useful software in horrible languages (PHP) and I feel good about that too, and about not caring about the lovability factor (so to speak) of my professional toolkit.
brundolf超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m at a point where I think I would turn down any job offer that required me to do anything with python (even just the occasional change). I don&#x27;t have the time or energy to fight with my tooling and environment that much<p>It&#x27;s really a shame that data science, ML, and notebooks are so wrapped up in it. Otherwise we could jettison the whole thing into space
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joromero超过 2 年前
Doesn&#x27;t JavaScript suffer from most of the same issues the author raises about Python.<p>&gt; Documentation<p>JavaScript wins here thanks to MDN, but it&#x27;s not the official documentation.<p>&gt; Package Management<p>I agree that Python&#x27;s package management has its issues, but JS is insane in this regard<p>&gt; Standard Library<p>JavaScript&#x27;s standard library is definitely smaller than Python&#x27;s<p>&gt; Slow<p>This is clearly a win for JS<p>&gt; Size<p>When comparing the slim official Python docker image with the equivalent NodeJS image, Python wins in size<p>&gt; Syntax<p>This is the most subjective point. I prefer Python&#x27;s syntax because it&#x27;s less noisy, but JavaScript&#x27;s syntax is more consistent.<p>Regarding type annotations they don&#x27;t do anything at runtime, but they are extremely useful for IDEs.
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zeroCalories超过 2 年前
People joke that Python programming is &#x27;pip install solution&#x27;, but it&#x27;s honestly not too far from the truth. Until Go, Rust, or whatever fancy new language can match the wealth of well maintained libraries that Python has, I don&#x27;t see it ever getting replaced for the quick scripting that the author talks about.
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maxerickson超过 2 年前
Pretty amazing success for the Python standard library to be labeled as barebones.
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anigbrowl超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t fully agree with these arguments, but they all have some validity. I really felt his point on the documentation - it&#x27;s great that it&#x27;s reference-complete if that&#x27;s what you&#x27;re looking for, but it&#x27;s maddening if you are coming to something to find out what it does.
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macNchz超过 2 年前
I have gripes with some things in the current state of Python, package management particularly, but choosing JavaScript because Python&#x27;s standard library is &quot;barebones&quot; doesn&#x27;t really make any sense to me.<p>I&#x27;ve always found the Python standard library to have <i>tons</i> of useful stuff, and when I&#x27;m doing something in JS I often feel like I&#x27;m missing my toolbelt or something. Then I install a single npm package to do something simple and it winds up having 350 dependencies.
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iainctduncan超过 2 年前
What is such low effort post doing here? I use Python way less than I used to, but this is just unfounded whining. And imagining js is better on those points... omfg.
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pjmlp超过 2 年前
&gt; The python:3.9-slim Docker image is 118MB<p>Still smaller than most Go binaries.<p>Had to play with compiler flags to reduce trivy to a proper size (it was 300MB with default flags), and that was only the binary, without any containers.<p>And the dependency story is hardly any better than Python.
oliwarner超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m all for people finding better programming languages and explaining why they&#x27;re better for them… But without that context, without <i>any</i> context, this feels like they&#x27;re scraping the barrel to make a point to somebody with no discernable reason why.<p>Python has plenty of issues, but it&#x27;s still great for a huge pile of use-cases.<p>I&#x27;ve built a career on Python and Django. Even as my frontend work migrates into thick assemblies of javascript, I can&#x27;t imagine using anything else for the backend for complex systems, but who knows what the next 20 years holds.
taylodl超过 2 年前
Sure. If you&#x27;ve done nothing significant with the language then a breakup is easy. Easy come, easy go.<p>If you&#x27;ve spent years, or even decades, building a portfolio with Python then the breakup is going to be much harder, just like in human relationships. Some things will make sense to leave in Python until end-of-life. Other things will be worthwhile to migrate to Go. Of course your new greenfield projects can start off using Go.<p>Just know this - you&#x27;re going to go through this again in another 10-15 years, if not sooner. I&#x27;ve been writing software now for 40 years, that&#x27;s just the way it goes.
onatrain超过 2 年前
Meanwhile, it was the most used language to solve the advent of code, and the language the winning solutions tended to be written in.<p>&gt; my go-to language for a quick bit of scripting where another language might feel too heavy duty<p>So this article is not from someone who has used Python full time professionally...
iamjk超过 2 年前
&gt; Python’s standard library sucks<p>Maybe for production ready microservices, but I&#x27;ve always thought Python&#x27;s std lib was pretty expansive.
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sidlls超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s rich that the author unfavorably compares python&#x27;s docs to go&#x27;s. Go&#x27;s documentation is barely more than API auto-doc level documentation: and many if not most of the open source projects using it have followed suit. It&#x27;s some of the worst documentation out there, in my opinion.
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thaumaturgy超过 2 年前
I&#x27;ve been recommending Python to the occasional aspirational young programmer. Is it already passé? What would you recommend instead for a starter language? Looking for beginner-friendliness, widespread use, and longevity.<p>edit: to be clear, I hope this won&#x27;t devolve into a language flamewar. I&#x27;m sincerely interested in other devs&#x27; opinions, and hoping that either Python is still a good recommendation (which seems to be the consensus so far) or that there&#x27;s a better alternative.
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wpnx超过 2 年前
I agree with some of the sentiment here, but at the end of the day i’m not sure i’d be able to make a clean cut like OP suggests.<p>Python is used in so many places that’s it’s part of the lingua franca of programming. I’ve worked at multiple ruby shops over the last few years and pythons still been there in force for data applications.<p>I much prefer other languages (Ruby, Kotlin), but at the end of the day i need to be comfortable with the language that will be spoken for years to come.
Lyngbakr超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m getting stuck into Go at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it, but can it really fill the same niche as Python as the article suggests? (Sincere question.) Doesn&#x27;t the absence of an out-of-the-box REPL hinder quick scripting? As I say, I&#x27;m new to Go so would love to hear about people&#x27;s experience using it in this context.
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atomicnumber3超过 2 年前
I don&#x27;t disagree with any of his points, actually, and agree with almost all of them. The standard library has some holes - though I think that&#x27;s true everywhere. I don&#x27;t know that eg Ruby or java don&#x27;t have holes either.<p>I do think the packaging Story in python is nuts. Why does gem just work for Ruby but python&#x27;s story is such a disaster? Though imo my modern advice is &quot;just use poetry and ignore everything else&quot;.<p>Pythons main draw for me is some combination of:<p>Type hinting is good enough. It has a big escape hatch to be able to do C stuff if you need to. Numpy. The language is still straightforward enough that beginners can approach it and the experienced can wax reasonably eloquent with it. And it&#x27;s pervasive.<p>So when I sit here and I&#x27;m like &quot;ugh I need a thing to sit here and hit an api and dump it to a file every day in a cron job, and I don&#x27;t want to spend a whole day writing this&quot;. I go for python. And while go and java and rust etc would be just fine, I still end up taking longer than I&#x27;d like.<p>Somehow python is just the shortest, sanest route to just getting a small to medium sized doodad out the door and running reliably in a small footprint of time without needing to remember boilerplate (java) or think way lower level than I&#x27;d like to (go&#x2F;rust). Python just lets me do it with low cognitive overhead. Sometimes while I&#x27;m half-listening to a meeting I&#x27;m in!<p>Honestly my biggest gripe with python is it&#x27;s really hard to tell early enough when your program is on a trajectory to be too big for python. And I don&#x27;t mean from a perf perspective or anything, I just mean when it goes from being &quot;easy python&quot; to &quot;oops it&#x27;s spaghetti now.&quot; There&#x27;s a tipping point and I think even seasoned people end up <i>well</i> past it by the time they pause and rub their eyes and think &quot;ugh I wish this were in java.&quot;
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haaryball超过 2 年前
For me the greatest pain point with Python is that you are never sure about what any line of code does, because basically everything can be redefined.<p>It might not be a big issue in a small script, but as soon as you get a biggish codebase, with mixins or magical utilities written a couple of years ago by a developer who in the meantime left, it takes hours just to track the control flow in the mess of patched methods, dunder stuff calling nested supers, etc.<p>To say nothing of big frameworks like DRF. There isn&#x27;t even an agreed-on way to mark methods that are overridden from a base class.<p>Plus, simply changing the order of imports can violently change the semantics of the exact same code.<p>A fetish for hidden magic, state everywhere, and basically global coupling of code vastly override the supposedly simple syntax: it might be easy to read, but it is impossible to understand, locally.
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polotics超过 2 年前
I do not understand the incentive structure that would lead anyone to believe such a low effort blog post brings anything to anyone. The points raised are very standard, have reasons and counterpoints, and finally just invoking Go and JS without any details is so meh...
beardog超过 2 年前
Don&#x27;t forget how much of a pain packaging apps for end users is. There are helpful tools out there for it, but nothing that comes close to the ease of Go&#x27;s default static builds that I have found.
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cutler超过 2 年前
Python&#x27;s lambda sums up everything that sucks in Python. It&#x27;s a crippled, half-assed implementation of something which is considered a basic requirement for any programming language aiming for mainstream adoption. Even Java 8 did a better job after realising it wasn&#x27;t too late in the day. Python&#x27;s virtualenv requirement is also another admission of failure, IMHO.
Dove超过 2 年前
I want to break up with Python, too. The one-size-fits-all philosophy that runs through the language from end to end leaves me feeling like I&#x27;m typing with three fingers. Sometimes its Right Way really is okay or even right, but sometimes I&#x27;d really, really, rather use something else. I worry about a generation of programmers for whom this is the first, main, and possibly only thing they&#x27;ve learned. I worry about them being brain damaged.<p>But where would I go? I clicked through hoping to find a good suggestion, and found none.<p>Python has become the lingua franca of programming, in many contexts, in many fields. You don&#x27;t have a choice. You have to be able to read it, if you want to read what people are doing. You have to be able to write it, if you want people to read your stuff. It&#x27;s where the libraries are. It&#x27;s where stuff is happening. For better or for worse, Python <i>won</i>.<p>Even if I don&#x27;t care about any of that, I really don&#x27;t know where to go.<p>I really loved perl. I loved the powerful expression and conciseness. I miss it. But perl 5 is old, and it shows -- a lot of good ideas have come along in the last couple decades, and a lot of things that seemed like good ideas at the time really haven&#x27;t worked out. A decade or so ago, I was excited about perl 6, but it doesn&#x27;t seem to have worked out.<p>I don&#x27;t like python. But I don&#x27;t know what to replace it with. Javascript and Ruby seem like the serious options to me, and it&#x27;s hard to take the one seriously, and the other is so niche that that itself feels like a serious drawback. I want a general purpose scripting language that can do small scripts well (Messes allowed! Shortcuts encouraged! Power in a small space!) and grow to large projects well (Thoughtful object system! Good package management! Good support for alternative paradigms!)<p>I just can&#x27;t figure out what that would be.
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college_physics超过 2 年前
If you try to please everyone you end up without personality. Python has plenty of flaws but it feels also as a very distinct way of solving a vast range of problems. But its longevity will depend on how well its community can address legitimate complaints (which do not require it become all things to all people)
kissgyorgy超过 2 年前
This is a very weak rant, dude having a bad trying to get off on Python. Why is this on front page? So lame.
samuell超过 2 年前
My solution to the docs problem (which the OP describes well btw... The problem is how everything is on miles long pages), is to use:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;devdocs.io" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;devdocs.io</a><p>It does excellent fuzzy search-as-you-type, and is typically a pinned tab in my browser most of the time.
BenGosub超过 2 年前
If you chose JavaScript over Python for backend scripting, sounds like you want to hurt yourself.<p>If JavaScript is your goto language, then ok. But, otherwise, Python is the most used language for writing backend scripts, so it&#x27;s pretty good at this, but also there&#x27;s a lot of material online.
rihegher超过 2 年前
I have just started getting into python as I&#x27;m experimenting with pytorch and after a lot of googling I&#x27;m still trying to figure out how to use conda properly. Could anyone point me to the best way to manage python environments and packages?
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brrrrrm超过 2 年前
I feel similarly. However, Python has<p>- reference counted objects with predictable scoped destruction. this keeps the maintenance of huge resources quite simple and memory usage steady<p>- operator overloading (infix, like +&#x2F;*-)<p>I really wish other languages (like JS&#x2F;Go) had this stuff.
kens超过 2 年前
The article mentions using JavaScript in place of Python. I use JavaScript a lot for browser stuff but can JavaScript be used for the random command-line scripts that I implement in Python? (Genuine question, not rhetorical.)
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the_af超过 2 年前
Last time I argued, like the TFA does, that Python&#x27;s typing system is both too complex for casual users and useless for power users (&quot;it doesn&#x27;t do anything&quot; is about right), and that this makes it hard to evangelize its use to other devs who aren&#x27;t sold on type systems (&quot;but this doesn&#x27;t do anything!&quot;), I got into a 30-level nesting flame war with some HN regular who <i>just wouldn&#x27;t let go</i>.<p>So that&#x27;s still my line of thought, but I&#x27;m already regretting typing this on HN.
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molly0超过 2 年前
I don’t agree with anything in this rant except for “Python is slow”.
dijit超过 2 年前
my friend made a write up before about the inadequecies of python: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dustri.org&#x2F;b&#x2F;friends-dont-let-friends-write-production-software-in-python.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dustri.org&#x2F;b&#x2F;friends-dont-let-friends-write-producti...</a><p>Personally, I’ve been pretty happy with python, I think it works wonderfully as a glue language (like bash); I.E: you shouldn’t write a lot of it, you should use it for plumbing. Its fantastic for that.
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emrah超过 2 年前
Every language that&#x27;s been around long enough has issues. Python has its own of course, and the ones the OP listed are real. But none of them are show-stoppers or as big a deal as to stop coding in Python.<p>Here is my take on what the OP is actually trying to say: &quot;I don&#x27;t want to code in Python any more (because there are newer cooler languages like Go?) and here is my list of reasons for rationalizing my rather irrational decision&quot;
th3o6a1d超过 2 年前
JavaScript as a more coherent alternative to python?!?!
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zmmmmm超过 2 年前
Agree with syntax and slow, the others not so much.<p>But my bigger reason for avoiding Python when I can is I just think the days of dynamic languages are behind us. Which is to say, we are past the tipping point where the ergonomics of adding typing are less costly than the benefits, and that applies even for short scripting use cases (in part because so many short scripts grow their way into real production code that needs to be maintained).<p>I went down the rabbit hole of adding type hints but at the end of the rabbit hole it was a lot of work and the value realised was still only 50% of that from having a real type system. Vast numbers of type errors still not getting caught in my editor, autocompletion stymied at shallow points where the type system gets lost, and as the weight of the project grows the tools like MyPy getting slower and slower as they have to process massive amounts of the dependency tree just to infer the type of the single line you are typing.<p>These days even for short scripts I am preferring to write them in languages like Groovy which get me all the benefits of Python from the dynamic language point of view but built on a foundation of a real type system which means I have a pathway to grow the code into full static typing using any of the JVM languages if I want &#x2F; need to. And it also largely solves the problem with performance.
version_five超过 2 年前
This was awfully generic. Not necessarily wrong, but certainly not a meaningful blow against python that&#x27;s going to show anyone the light and give them tangible thoughts about using another tool. (Especially given the breath of what python is used for. Does it suck at everything?) What are we supposed to get out of this?
igtztorrero超过 2 年前
I tried python in 2010 because looks easy, but Go came on stage, and changed backed tools.<p>Go is the way to better backend, CPU and memory optimized.<p>I read an article that Dropbox save thousands just by change from Python to Go.<p>It&#x27;s difficult, especially handling shared variables in go routines, but it&#x27;s worth it.
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theLiminator超过 2 年前
Python is the shittiest option, but the only one for a wide variety of tasks.<p>Everyone loves to hate it, but you gotta use it.<p>I disagree about the documentation&#x2F;syntax&#x2F;std lib gripes, but everything else is a pretty reasonable issue.
323超过 2 年前
&gt; <i>For years, Python has been my go-to language </i><p>&gt; ...<p>&gt; <i>Python sucks. I mean the syntax itself.</i><p>So author notices that syntax sucks afters years of usage?
smitty1e超过 2 年前
The package management riff is a fair cop.<p>It would be swell if rationalizing the packaging story were a priority for 3.12.
Euphorbium超过 2 年前
Out of all of that only packaging criticism is valid, it does suck. But poetry almost solves that.
zhenyakovalyov超过 2 年前
feels very emotional, which means that it’s not too rational. why discuss someone’s emotions?
fargle超过 2 年前
This is garbage. It typifies a kind a drive-by rant disguised as a rational opinion that is basically insulting to the intelligence of everyone, regardless of language preference. The level of narcissism and pettiness is high, and the level of rational discourse is low. Entitled spewing of garbage.<p>&gt; Python’s documentation sucks<p>Dead giveaway. Well, it doesn&#x27;t suck. It&#x27;s pretty great, pretty comprehensive. OH... Wait, ot isn&#x27;t formatted with a index pane. <i>that&#x27;s</i> why it sucks. The author probably has problems with the font-kerning too.<p>&gt; Every project seems to use a different tool and it’s a massive headache<p>Um, no. Everything really uses pip. I don&#x27;t even really like pip, but everyone uses it so I use it. You know why? Because it&#x27;s never, ever a pain in anything at all. It just works.<p>&gt; Python’s standard library sucks<p>What? is this satire?<p>&gt; Python is huge<p>This has got to be satire. Author prefers &quot;go&quot;. Nothing wrong with go, but nothing wrong with Python either.<p>&gt; Python syntax sucks.<p>Nuts! this guys is legit insane. The only really controversial thing is the whitespace-indent vs. delimited thing. Guess what? I really dislike the indentation scheme. You could have a reasonable debate over that relatively unique syntax scheme. But the entire syntax as a whole is cleverly regular, predictable and tidy.<p>&gt; Python is slow<p>Well, as the author said, &quot;Python has been my go-to language for a quick bit of scripting&quot;. Slow is a perfectly acceptable trade-off there. And you could certainly come up with a different set of trades that also make sense. To say &quot;SUCKS&quot; implies it&#x27;s just stupid and sub-optimal everywhere; a lose-lose-lose-lose. Which it isn&#x27;t.<p>&gt; It’s like everything under the kitchen sink has been jammed in.<p>I though you said that the standard library &quot;sucked&quot;; is there too much sink or too little? &quot;let that sink in&quot;<p>The author seems to be infatuated with javascript and go (at the moment), but neither is really in the same niche as python. That doesn&#x27;t make any of those other choices &quot;suck&quot;.<p>Larry Ellison and his company and products suck. Software patent trolls suck. Python does not &quot;suck&quot; because you like other things at the moment.
sigmonsays超过 2 年前
There is no reason to start a new project in python IMO. Existing ones should be deprecated.<p>the packaging ecosystem alone is enough to make anyone mad. I maintained a production system in python for a few years a while back and code refactoring was extremely painful.<p>I hope I&#x27;ll never touch python again.
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northisup超过 2 年前
python is terrible, but it&#x27;s the best language we&#x27;ve got.
mgaunard超过 2 年前
Just some guy whining on the Internet.<p>Python remains the most popular programming language worldwide.
pdimitar超过 2 年前
Oh yeah, &quot;every language has issues&quot;, or &quot;if you just invest a little effort you&#x27;ll get it&quot;, sure. But those languages that I use don&#x27;t prevent me from installing a CLI tool and have me fighting with its half-witted package manager to do so. And they don&#x27;t (or they very rarely do) mandate me to learn idiosyncrasies so I can do basic activities.<p>The only thing that keeps Python alive and well is the fact that many people don&#x27;t know anything else -- and never will know anything else -- and that&#x27;s one of the reasons it&#x27;s widely taught in universities. The AI&#x2F;ML stuff can be replaced with its underlying C&#x2F;C++&#x2F;Rust libraries in a week so that&#x27;s not an argument in Python&#x27;s favor at all.<p>I wish people stopped pretending Python is OK. It very much is not. It&#x27;s a collective delusion kept alive by network effects.
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