TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Surviving disillusionment (2020)

229 点作者 precompute超过 2 年前

39 条评论

fest超过 2 年前
I guess this is why I lost interest in software that does not have a physical aspect rougly 5 years into my career doing random web development and being the tech cofounder at a shitty startup (though, successful enough to bootatrap me out of parents&#x27; nest): it just felt .. disconnected from the greater world.<p>There is something magical in watching the software you wrote sling full size wood logs around (industrial automation), control and maintain a positive pressure in painting chamber, take off and fly away somewhere.<p>And even the greater cost of failures&#x2F;mistakes or the insane hours to debug a single bit set incorrect somewhere deep in SoCs RAM controller is not enough to offset it- you learn so much about the way world works (or doesn&#x27;t- but that&#x27;s something to learn as well).<p>An off-by one error crashing and snapping conveyor belts, too large a P coefficient in pressure controller bending the doors, missing the requirement of closing the shutters for an outdoor heat exchanger leading to freezing and bursting it- though frustrating at the time leads to much better memories than debugging a PHP file deployed on a VPS with logging disabled.
评论 #34196163 未加载
评论 #34201042 未加载
评论 #34198097 未加载
评论 #34196143 未加载
评论 #34200445 未加载
jgeada超过 2 年前
The difference between medicine and engineering is that largely the AMA has endured that management is a support function and medical doctors largely remain in power in most practices. In engineering, particularly software and electronics we’ve allowed parasitic management to take over under the cover that “engineers aren’t people persons”. Look at how many of the awards in our fields go to management rather than the actual engineers that created the inventions that have revolutionized the world.
评论 #34199800 未加载
hermitcrab超过 2 年前
I have been a professional software developer since the late 80s. I was getting a bit jaded and set up my own 1-man software business in 2005. I do all the programming, testing, documentation, support, marketing and sales. The variety of work, the freedom to do what I want and the fact that the financial rewards are directly linked to my work all help to keep me engaged. Interacting directly with my customers also helps. I have stuck with the same basic toolset (Qt and C++) which have grown with me.
评论 #34195760 未加载
评论 #34200474 未加载
评论 #34195288 未加载
hyperman1超过 2 年前
I&#x27;ve seen this happen so much with IT people it became a bit of a clichė: Around 35, pure IT is not enough anymore.<p>IT people just drop out. The simple cases become managers or architects. The more advanced cases start a bakery, go work in a call center. One of the most extreme cases was a very intelligent, very cynical, very anti religion guy who just quit without warning and joined the hare chrisna. We got photos from him in red clothes doing some kind of ritual. Huh?<p>A big part for me is that IT just doesn&#x27;t learn. Every 5 years, a new generation pops up, invents completely new tooling, and makes all the mistakes from the previous generation. Now your knowledge is obsolete, and after you relearn everything your tooling is worse than where you started. Enter a few years of slow tooling maturisation with a very predictable outcome, after which a new generation pops up, declares the existing stuff too complicated, and reinvent everything again. 35 is 4 or 5 of these cycles, bringing to front the huge wastefull uselessness of it all. Learning your whole life is a nice slogan, but becomes very pointless.<p>The survivors that continue in IT, deal with it somehow. You enter a new cycle knowing it will be change but not much advancement, and don&#x27;t learn the stack as deep as you used too. You get a life outside IT: Kids, hobbies, social events. You let the youngsters run before you, smile when they do better than your old tech would, and compare with older tools when they get stuck. And you keep some of your tech enthousiasm just for the hell of it.
评论 #34195710 未加载
评论 #34195209 未加载
评论 #34195494 未加载
评论 #34195105 未加载
评论 #34197066 未加载
评论 #34203072 未加载
评论 #34200532 未加载
评论 #34196646 未加载
评论 #34195321 未加载
评论 #34195300 未加载
评论 #34197658 未加载
ergonaught超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s what happens anytime money becomes the point. Call it extrinsic motivation if you prefer. The folks running the company no longer have nor engender a sense of mission; the folks flocking to your career are chasing dollars rather than love or mission. It feels soulless because it is soulless, and if you&#x27;re one of the few who genuinely care&#x2F;love, it&#x27;s crushing.<p>It&#x27;s hardly exclusive to programming. My father was a plumber in love with the craft and even the art of it, and by mid 90s the industry had crushed the love right out of him. Happens everywhere.
评论 #34198393 未加载
fsloth超过 2 年前
One of the things not mentioned here is that doctors are genuine professionals.<p>Software developers, on the other hand, are in this weird limbo where some consider themselves as professionals and others do not. I am using the term &quot;professional&quot; in the wikipedia sense <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Professional" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Professional</a>.<p>Similarly, some organizations treat software engineers as professionals, and other consider them closer to manual labor.<p>The result is there is no shared understanding what it means to be a software engineer. Therefore it&#x27;s quite hard to discuss software engineers as a single body of professionals, as the loose definition of the field means there won&#x27;t be a single definition everyone could fall into.<p>What I read from the article is that the author defines his &quot;professionalism&quot; as &quot;inhabiting the monastery&quot;. That is fair and good, but there is no reason this definition and feeling should be shared with anyone else in the field. This lack of shared definition probably drives a lot of disillusionment.<p>Someone thinks they are entering a monastery, but the next guy is there just to sweep the floors for a living.<p>In monasteries most people are there to search for the higher purpose. But in software industry, &quot;sweeping floors&quot; is the most plausible job description, where no holy insight is expected to be gained.<p>The described disillusionment might not be because the business is pathological (which it may very well) but because the practitioner entered the field with false expectations, imagining perhaps grand technological projects to move humanity forward, but founding themselves in the &quot;sweeping factory&quot;.<p>Another thing that comes to my mind - generally once you&#x27;ve been in the industry for a decade or so you are middle aged, and probably entering your middle age crisis where steretypically people re-evaluate their priorities and life goals. Which, given generally sofware people are not the dumbest people around, means there are lot of displeased people trying to search more meaningful careers, and given their general aptitude in complex tasks, can find lot of other fields (that don&#x27;t need years of complex studioes) where they are quite good as well.
评论 #34198878 未加载
评论 #34200920 未加载
评论 #34196336 未加载
rockbruno超过 2 年前
&gt;world of corporate politics, bureaucracy, envy and greed— a world so depressing, that many people quit in frustration, never to come back.<p>I think one reason people get disillusioned is not simply because those things are depressing, but because those things exist at the same time that there&#x27;s a strong disconnect between what&#x27;s the right thing to do and what will bring the company most _money_.<p>The depressing part is having to go through all of these hoops and realize that it was all for nothing, because the end result is either not what the user truly needs or outright evil. I just want to build things that helps others.
评论 #34195523 未加载
评论 #34195693 未加载
jordanpg超过 2 年前
I left software engineering after about 10 years to become a patent attorney. I&#x27;m about 3 months in (post-law school).<p>I left software engineering because I just couldn&#x27;t see myself doing it for another 20 years, especially if it was going to involve even more meetings (ie. management). I chose patent law because it seemed tech-adjacent.<p>I&#x27;m in biglaw now. Too early to say if this was a wise move or not, but I do find myself fondly reminiscing about my cushy life as a SWE often, already. I have work <i>much, much harder</i> as a patent attorney and have much less free time and time off. Yes I get paid more, too. This is partially a function of biglaw, and partially a function of the legal world in general that is tethered to the billable hour.<p>I guess my point is to take careful stock of the lifestyle being a SWE affords you relative to the workload and compensation before making any drastic moves.
myth_drannon超过 2 年前
Funny, I did exactly the same. Bought 486 off the ebay, got me some Turbo C and bunch of old books on computer graphics. It&#x27;s very satisfying feeling vs even working on some hobby ML projects or some other new web fancy thing.<p>My day job(web dev) is like everyday the same house is flooded with sewage and I need to clean it quickly and also put a smile on my face and tell how great is that and that I managed to do it all today and suggest new ways of cleaning sewage better.
mothsonasloth超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m in the same boat, that I have contemplated starting a business making houmous as a street food vendor.<p>The author&#x27;s article does resonate with me but to add, I think the software game has changed a lot since the dot-com era. It has changed for worse, we are disconnected from the hardware and the users.<p>We are just middleware integration specialists, depending on an ever decreasing amount of pioneers building systems, frameworks or low level processes.<p>I want to build Dijkstras algorithms not write integration tests for APIs made terribly by Stripe
评论 #34200683 未加载
breck超过 2 年前
&gt; My dad introduced me to the genre with Jules Verne&#x27;s The Mysterious Island, in which a team of five end up on an uninhabited island, and use their knowledge and ingenuity to rebuild a technological civilization from scratch.<p>Now I gotta read this. (link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gutenberg.org&#x2F;ebooks&#x2F;1268" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gutenberg.org&#x2F;ebooks&#x2F;1268</a>)
评论 #34289798 未加载
评论 #34199958 未加载
adbachman超过 2 年前
For me this manifests as changing jobs about every two years.<p>I also keep a Fred Brooks quote taped to the wall behind my monitors:<p><i>The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. They build their castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination. Few media of creation are so flexible, so easy to polish and rework, so readily capable of realizing grand conceptual structures.</i><p><i>The magic of myth and legend has come true in our time.</i><p><pre><code> Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man Month </code></pre> It doesn&#x27;t fix alienation, but it helps. I particularly like to share it during interviews to get the vibe of the people I&#x27;m talking to and potentially going to be working with.
评论 #34196853 未加载
alkonaut超过 2 年前
If you like programming like a craft or something almost magic, then work on something like that. There are jobs where the ratio of algorithms and problem solving to plumbing is perfectly fine. You don’t have to work with apis and databases and and yaml.<p>I think too many get into software because of that magic feeling but then end up doing plumbing. <i>Of course that’s not going to be as fulfilling as what you did on your ZX</i>. But people plumb along or think that maybe it’s just time to go into management, they feel “done” with development. And that’s sad.
评论 #34195703 未加载
082349872349872超过 2 年前
It can&#x27;t be all work; one also has to hack.<p>cf &quot;what is the little man there for?&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;books.google.ch&#x2F;books?id=V3ByEAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA575&amp;lpg=PA575&amp;dq=for+fun+maxwell+little+man+kelvin&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZoqvPNlu_F&amp;sig=ACfU3U3OIHwEqUeCfjoj94GrhrazU444Zg&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiasJCjwqP8AhUIg_0HHRChD8YQ6AF6BAgfEAM#v=onepage&amp;q=for%20fun%20maxwell%20little%20man%20kelvin&amp;f=false" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;books.google.ch&#x2F;books?id=V3ByEAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA575&amp;lpg=P...</a>
omarelb超过 2 年前
I believe that the more fundamental issue is that too many devs are 1) working on the <i>wrong</i> thing and 2) too disconnected to the users of their product, especially in larger companies.<p>1) I work at an early stage startup, and besides the tech challenges, what brings me most joy is our mission and vision of the product: to reduce the amount of time healthcare professionals are stuck doing administrative work, in turn allowing them to more effectively deliver care. I admit I was lucky to find a place building a product I <i>can</i> care about, and that it&#x27;s a privilege. But for the love of god, please (try to) work on something you <i>actually</i> care about. For me that means building something that adds value to society, instead of e.g. trying to make [big corp] more money by ad optimization. I don&#x27;t think I would feel fulfilled working on something like that, even if the engineering challenges of working on such a project could be great and fun.<p>2) The author mentions that doctors avoid leaving the sector, because they can see the impact they&#x27;re having on their patients. It seems to me he missed the obvious analogy to us developers and the users of our software. If you never engage with the users of your product (which I do believe happens a lot, especially at larger companies), how will you know what value and joy it brings them? Staying close to the user, trying to understand them, is imo one of the most important (and fulfilling) things we can do as developers. It also allows us to do a better job, not in the least as a result of actually <i>caring</i> how your software will affect people.<p>TL;DR try to work on something you actually care about
评论 #34195536 未加载
tomr75超过 2 年前
I feel the exact same way as a doctor... I wonder if every profession loses its charm after 10 years<p>For me it&#x27;s losing the challenge&#x2F;being disillusioned with the remaining goals
评论 #34195752 未加载
rightbyte超过 2 年前
I think disillusionment in software development is mainly about the social interactions at companies rather than about the technology itself. Sure, all these hype cycles are annoying and if you believe in them and they turn out bad. But they are only truly annoying if you are forced into them too early by the usual dogmatic evangelists using social shaming, management force or what not.<p>But in the end the old tech is still there for you.
neilv超过 2 年前
&gt; <i>Yet I haven&#x27;t heard of a single doctor who quit his practice and moved to Colorado to run a ski lodge. When I ask why, they all give the same response: the patients. Every day they see patients brought back to health, the bullshit recedes into the background, and they&#x27;re reminded why they got into medicine.</i><p>That kind of actual positive impact isn&#x27;t the norm in tech.
评论 #34196031 未加载
hermitcrab超过 2 年前
Accountants seem even more disillusioned than developers: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Accounting&#x2F;comments&#x2F;zza7el&#x2F;accountants_and_auditors_declined_17_between_2019&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Accounting&#x2F;comments&#x2F;zza7el&#x2F;accounta...</a> We&#x27;re the <i>cool</i> nerds. ;0)
评论 #34196139 未加载
wiseowise超过 2 年前
A lot of personal anecdotes and projection on others.<p>&gt; Yet I haven&#x27;t heard of a single doctor who quit his practice and moved to Colorado to run a ski lodge.<p>How many doctors do you know?
chris_wot超过 2 年前
I got enormously disillusioned with Wikipedia. Then I decided to contribute to the Women in Red project. All my disillusionment went away! I wrote articles about Australian women - my last one being Kate Baker who championed the first truly quintessential Australian writer, Joseph Furphy.[1]<p>Then I got banned and all of that came to an abrupt end.<p>Now I’m using Wikishootme to document South-West Sydney as it’s unloved by politicians and those from the East and North Shore of Sydney. I’ve discovered the area I live in through the act of taking photos of the place I live in. It’s fantastic again!<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Kate_Baker" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Kate_Baker</a>
WantonQuantum超过 2 年前
I like to work closely with the users of the software I’m working on. I volunteer to attend their meetings. I ask them how new features are working. I solicit feedback. It’s very rewarding even if sometimes it can be uncomfortable when things aren’t going well.
ulnarkressty超过 2 年前
Wonderfully written, I think most software developers born in the 70s-90s started like that. I&#x27;m not sure I understand the advice at the end. If one becomes so cynical as to consider pursuing manual labor instead of their life passion, wouldn&#x27;t all manner of reading, hobbies and hacking end up in the &quot;what&#x27;s the point&quot; hole? What&#x27;s the point in coding a game of Pong that will end up on a shelf being used by nobody? What the point of being inspired by an old book if you&#x27;re still writing CRUDs?<p>The AI revolution can&#x27;t come soon enough. We&#x27;ll all be out of a job, but perhaps we&#x27;ll all be better off.
评论 #34195637 未加载
vgyhui超过 2 年前
I got around this feeling of disillusionment by changing track to vulnerability research and exploit development. Now I spend my days figuring out how things work and how to break them to do things they were never designed to do.<p>It&#x27;s so much more satisfying that the tedious, unfulfilling, run-of-the-mill software development crap that I was doing prior to this. The nice thing about this switch is that all my previous experience in the field comes in very useful, unlike if I changed careers to something entirely different.
评论 #34198879 未加载
breck超过 2 年前
&gt; One reality is the atmosphere of new technology, its incredible power to transform the human condition, the joy of the art of doing science and engineering, the trials of the creative process, the romance of the frontier. The other reality is the frustration and drudgery of operating in a world of corporate politics, bureaucracy, envy and greed<p>To any programmers feeling similarly disillusioned with the &quot;world of corporate politics&quot;: there is a war going on (the War to Liberate Ideas). Join the fight.
评论 #34196371 未加载
评论 #34195364 未加载
nemo超过 2 年前
&gt;The internet desensitized me to text and video. Anything that happens in front of a screen doesn&#x27;t help with perspective anymore. But I discovered that getting away from the screen and handling physical items does.<p>A little late on this one, but I&#x27;ve been recapping and fixing an old SE&#x2F;30 I&#x27;ve had since &#x27;98, and it&#x27;s been rewarding to do. I&#x27;ve also connected with old friends while doing it. Doing things in meatspace that are tied to computing has been really fun and running System 7.5.5 on an SE&#x2F;30 also reminds me of how far things have progressed from back then while still some things seem timeless. It used to run NetBSD and run as a server ages ago.<p>I also collect Roman and Ancient Greek coins (there are cheap ones), have a Roman emperor list filled out, and have a lot of lovely Greek art I&#x27;ve picked up over the decades. I just started a new Byzantium &amp; the Middle Ages building out an eastern Roman emperor list. Holding each coin and learning about the era depicted and the people of that time is fascinating for me. Won&#x27;t save you from burnout over tech, but it&#x27;s always good to have hobbies that keep your spirits up.
fedeb95超过 2 年前
Just don&#x27;t make your life revolve only around software development. Try to limit at the necessary extra hours, knowing that yes, they may boost your career for a while, but they both diminish your work quality and get you closer to burnout. In your free time, try to do other activities. Reading, fishing, hiking, learning a new language (not programming) through books and not the internet. That&#x27;s what I do if anything.
eulers_secret超过 2 年前
Wow, I read “Once you observe the darker side of human nature in the technology industry, you cannot forget or unsee it.” And then I hit the (skippable) paywall.<p>I laughed, goddamn this is funny. An article about how exhausting this shit is and there’s fucking dark patterns shitting all over it. It’s so perfect, like a grand satire. Performance art done in software, but fully unintended and shockingly cynical.
iceflinger超过 2 年前
If being in tech requires crafting your own rituals in order to stay engaged, what&#x27;s the motivation to not simply quit and start brewing beer and growing tomatoes while still keeping your own tech rituals? If the fulfillment of working with technology is coming from outside having technology as a career, why stay in technology as a career? Compared to the feeling mentioned between doctors and patients I still don&#x27;t see any actual compelling reason that staying in tech as a business in its current state is worth it even to the most enthused about technology.
评论 #34197631 未加载
pydry超过 2 年前
&gt;Yet I haven&#x27;t heard of a single doctor who quit his practice and moved to Colorado to run a ski lodge. When I ask why, they all give the same response: the patients. Every day they see patients brought back to health, the bullshit recedes into the background, and they&#x27;re reminded why they got into medicine.<p>&gt;The default in engineering is different. We don&#x27;t have a daily ritual built into our jobs that reminds us why we got into the field.<p>This is just <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation</a><p>The difference between doctors and software engineers is just that it&#x27;s easier for us to be alienated due to the nature of our work.
harimau777超过 2 年前
This article misses that for most software engineers there is no monastery. Unlike a doctor who actually is doing the thing they care about, healing patients. Most software engineers aren&#x27;t doing anything related to expanding technology or even using technology in a skilled way. It&#x27;s just an empty race to the bottom.
pnf超过 2 年前
The whole setup of expectations in tech is contrary to happiness for most people. The ideal of &#x27;building the future&#x27; and other silly values such as &#x27;change the world&#x27; are without content. Build which future? Change the world how? These empty values cannot hide the inherent meaningless of most tech jobs.<p>Moreover, the pace of innovation in tech can burn people out for sure; trying to upskill all the time is no way to live as your brain changes and family life competes for time and attention. But more than that, the constant mini-revolutions in tech shorten history and reveal to anyone who cares to look the graveyard of innovation in miniature. It takes a strong will to consider without flinching that years of effort, success, and failure were transient curiosities to the world.<p>In a tech career you must plan for your own obsolescence unless you move into the &#x27;stable&#x27; trajectory of management. That&#x27;s rough on the ego of any healthy person. That&#x27;s not even to mention the challenges of soulless bureaucracies that constitute most of the job options these days. The solution is to find sources of power and leverage for oneself. This is admittedly hard to do in management-dominated jobs unless you also have the skills for management. If you have management skills, you can avoid burnout by avoiding notions of &#x27;fixing organizations&#x27; or &#x27;improving processes&#x27;. These are dead ends. Find opportunities of expanding the things you control and minimizing the things that control you. If you are a technician who is loath to become a manager, understand you also need to maximize your leverage. This comes with control through skill and ownership, not skill alone. People who want to see this advice as cynical are narrow-minded. Nothing about having leverage means you can&#x27;t help people succeed, or be a team player, or be a &#x27;good&#x27; person. In fact, unless you are a sociopath, you must have friends and allies and be committed to their well-being to be happy. What it does mean is you having the power to do all those things and not be helpless. Helplessness is the mind killer. The whole &#x27;beginner mind&#x27; business is, paradoxically, a hack to put yourself back into an expansive state of power (the opposite of powerless). But it cannot last. Unless you are a happy hermit you will want to be in the world, with people, with organizations, with politics, with friends, with enemies, with family. Technical competence, among its many uses, is a kind of armor you put on to conquer, but it isn&#x27;t terribly useful to hold on to what you&#x27;ve gained for long.
评论 #34199934 未加载
amelius超过 2 年前
&gt; Maybe it’s an emergent property, maybe it’s an accident, maybe it’s by design; it doesn’t matter why, but the industry burns through people.<p>It&#x27;s by design. Employers want only young people because they are still gullible and don&#x27;t question the politics.
dang超过 2 年前
Discussed at the time:<p><i>Surviving Disillusionment</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24896650" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24896650</a> - Oct 2020 (170 comments)
pelasaco超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s all matter of mindset, changing work and challenges often, learning something new and stay away from all non-core discussions, specially politics.
评论 #34197119 未加载
评论 #34195660 未加载
agumonkey超过 2 年前
two things come to mind:<p>- I think part of this is related to this era. even MIT reopened glass smelting fabs. People need more stimuli than digital projections inside chips<p>- All we really want is to contribute to others. Do something nice that is never gonna be of use to anybody and you&#x27;ll feel down, do something super trivial that gives someone his smile&#x27;s back and you&#x27;re proud of your day.
lilboiluvr69超过 2 年前
That was beautiful.
lapcat超过 2 年前
(2020)
draw_down超过 2 年前
I don’t think professional software development is worthy of being compared to monasticism. You shovel the shit and get paid. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. No use pretending otherwise.<p>There are so many other things to pursue in life besides computers. It’s ok to leave computers behind. It’s not a sad thing, it’s a happy thing. If it’s time to move on, realizing that is healthy and good. You don’t have to hate it to move on, just decide that there’s more to life.
评论 #34195313 未加载
评论 #34195694 未加载