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On the Gnome project and “my way or the highway”

67 点作者 rc00超过 2 年前

28 条评论

jcelerier超过 2 年前
&gt; When it comes to “my way or the highway”, I noticed that users mainly reference GNOME, far more than any other project. There is one main reason I can think of.<p>either this, or, bear with me for a second, maybe because GNOME unlike most big OSS projects has people going into issue tracker of other software and asking them to do things specifically for accomodating GNOME at the expense of other DEs (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;trac.transmissionbt.com&#x2F;ticket&#x2F;3685" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;trac.transmissionbt.com&#x2F;ticket&#x2F;3685</a> for the most famous example - who the f* says this really: &quot;I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app unfortunately. I&#x27;m sorry that this is the case but it wasn&#x27;t GNOME&#x27;s fault that Ubuntu has started this fork. And I have no idea what XFCE is or does sorry. It is my hope that you are a GNOME app. Yes this kind of fragmentation is unfortunate. I&#x27;m not happy about it either. Anyway, I just wanted to give you a heads up. Wish you the best.&quot;). Only other project I&#x27;ve ever seen this with is Rust people spamming RIIR issues on gh.<p>Or stuff like this insane thread: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.gnome.org&#x2F;GNOME&#x2F;mutter&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;217" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.gnome.org&#x2F;GNOME&#x2F;mutter&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;217</a>
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jchw超过 2 年前
I would be happy if they stop opposing server side decorations in Wayland. Weston and Mutter are probably going to wind up being basically the only two Wayland WMs that don&#x27;t support it, making GNOME an unfortunate and avoidable edge case.<p>I think the CSD initiative is fine if it&#x27;s a choice. However, I can&#x27;t choose to not use GNOME on behalf of my users. Libdecor is a bad and C-centric solution to the problem. I know Mutter is designed in such a way that makes this hard; that was a pretty big misstep in my opinion.<p>Likewise for other things that GNOME Project pushes.<p>Here is a great example. Wayland has a protocol for inhibiting idle called inhibit-idle. GTK won&#x27;t use it. Instead, they want you to use a DBus interface from the enormous XDG Desktop Portals API. They refuse to have any kind of discussion about it. End of story.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.gnome.org&#x2F;GNOME&#x2F;gtk&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;2202" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.gnome.org&#x2F;GNOME&#x2F;gtk&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;2202</a><p>This pattern repeats for even silly things. Like the size of the mouse cursor on HiDPI screens? No problem bro, just use this bespoke DBus API.<p>This is all assuming you want to use DBus. Why? Wayland is already the thing that you speak to talk to the display server. Why use another protocol for basic functions like this? If DBus is so great, why do we even need the Wayland protocols in the first place? (Dbus is not great.)
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jrm4超过 2 年前
Nope. I&#x27;m still going to go at them.<p>The problem is simple:<p>They used the open-source style goodwill generated by the old thing called GNOME, as it existed with Linux, to bootstrap their current popularity, and this is to me, <i>dishonest.</i><p>They used a different style and direction. Had they changed the name and&#x2F;or been clear and upfront about the fact that &quot;this new my-way-or-the-highway thing isn&#x27;t the Gnome you&#x27;re used to,&quot; then I could defend them.<p>Call it something new and let MATE have the old name.<p>But they&#x27;re not interested in doing or even acknowledging that. Let the mud slinging continue.
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yongjik超过 2 年前
&gt; GNOME is designed to avoid overwhelming the user with information overload as much as possible, which is a really important topic for usability for the average computer user. Therefore, it does not follow the traditional desktop paradigm, where there is a taskbar, desktop icons, and others - everything is put away until the user needs them.<p>It almost reads as sarcasm. Even if we skip over the fact that an &quot;average Linux user&quot; isn&#x27;t exactly an &quot;average computer user,&quot; have you met... an average computer user? Try telling them that there are no desktop icons because it will only confuse them.
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lakomen超过 2 年前
Gnome 2 was great. Gnome 3 was 10 steps back. And the arrogance of doing it their way just because they like to, not minding usefulness. So I just am not been using Gnome anymore. Cinnamon, which does what I want and need and doesn&#x27;t get in my way. And if it does, an opened issue fixes that, quickly too.<p>Gnome is like everything from freedesktop.org opinionated, arrogant and ignorant
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bawolff超过 2 年前
&gt; I would like to explain where this mindset comes from, why this is an aggravated claim, and what you can do if you are negatively affected by the GNOME Project’s decisions.<p>&gt; ....<p>&gt; SOLUTION:<p>&gt; If you dislike the GNOME Project’s philosophy, then the solution is to simply not use GNOME.<p>lol, is this supposed to somehow convince me that gnome does not have this attitude or the claim is misleading?<p>I don&#x27;t even think &quot;my way or the highway&quot; is a bad philosophy in UI heavy software, but what is even the point in writing a response to this criticism if you are just going to end it with: my way or the highway (phrased differently)?
rcarmo超过 2 年前
Having used GNOME 41-43 on a daily basis and having had to resort to extensions (and themes) to make it usable because I _need_ the UI affordances they keep hiding away, find the UX in Nautilus ludicrously bad and loathe the Adwaita theme, the one sentence that keeps popping up in my mind whenever I read (or write) about GNOME is:<p>“GNOME continues the war against its own users.”<p>That said, I will grant that its ecosystem and application suite is now good enough for me to not consider using Elementary any more, but I think that, in my case, is as much due to switching to Fedora as it is to GNOME.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taoofmac.com&#x2F;space&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2022&#x2F;12&#x2F;22&#x2F;1300" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taoofmac.com&#x2F;space&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2022&#x2F;12&#x2F;22&#x2F;1300</a> (A year using Linux on the desktop)
tssva超过 2 年前
1. Gnome has to keep things hidden and simple so it can be used by the masses.<p>2. Members of the masses (Windows &amp; macOS users) switching to Linux annoyingly keep complaining that Gnome needs to change to make things less hidden and simple so they can use it.<p>3. These users need to be ignored so that Gnome can be used by the masses.<p>Makes perfect sense.
deafpolygon超过 2 年前
&gt; It is also why other desktop environments, like Plasma, still exist. They are designed to be user-centric and powerful. GNOME, on the other hand, is designed to be user-friendly.<p>Since you brought up KDE.<p>This is many reasons why I like KDE - they seem to value interoperability over exclusiveness. Also, leave the user in control. GNOME removes control from me. As seen in their HIG[0], &quot;Provide sensible defaults but consider optional functionality and customization options that don&#x27;t interfere with the primary task.&quot;<p>From another comment:<p>&gt; maybe because GNOME unlike most big OSS projects has people going into issue tracker of other software and asking them to do things specifically for accomodating GNOME<p>This is a pattern I dislike seeing. GNOME is fracturing the community by forcing their own way, or the highway.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;develop.kde.org&#x2F;hig&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;develop.kde.org&#x2F;hig&#x2F;</a>
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xedrac超过 2 年前
I used to complain a lot about Gnome and the big changes they made. I still don&#x27;t love some of their decisions, but it has become simple to use for the masses, and I consider that a win for Desktop Linux adoption.
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LastTrain超过 2 年前
The vision stinks. Usually the solution w&#x2F; open source is to roll up one’s sleeves and help out, but since help isn’t allowed (on that subject) people are going to complain loudly.
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wereallterrrist超过 2 年前
<i>&gt; the solution is to simply not use GNOME.</i><p><i>&gt;But, currently, I prioritize ease of use and distraction-free, so I use GNOME.</i><p>Wew, there we go!. At least it&#x27;s being said plainly and openly at this point. GNOME is for GNOME OS, we have plenty of other choices in its absence. Sorry to authors of GTK apps caught in the middle!<p>This line coming from the project that took what 10+ years to add thumbnails to the file picker? Do y&#x27;all not realize how this comes off? It&#x27;s really something.
cuteboy19超过 2 年前
&gt; This type of behavior is consistent with numerous projects, including Firefox, the Linux kernel, KDE and many, many others.<p>No, it&#x27;s not. KDE will work with you to add any reasonable feature that most people would find useful, even at risk of introducing a few bugs here and there. (Gnome ends up having a similar amount of bugs anyway). You can very easily turn KDE into any other desktop you want, even gnome or windows. It provides one preferred oob experience however
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mouse_超过 2 年前
If I were on the controlled opposition task force at Microsoft, I would consider supporting Gnome our top priority.
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thayne超过 2 年前
Let me jump to the conclusion. I already don&#x27;t use GNOME. My problem with their &quot;my way or the highway&quot; attitude is its impact on the broader linux ecosystem. A great example of this is client side decoration (CSD). Since gnome uses client side decoration, non gnome apps often don&#x27;t have any window controls in gnome, and conversely gnome apps draw unwanted, redundant client side window decorations in environments with server side decorations (or in my case, no decorations).<p>Another example is, from what I&#x27;ve seen gnome has had a lot more resistance to standardizing new wayland protocols from wlroots than KDE, because minimal compositors have a very different paradigm than gnome, and gnome isn&#x27;t interested in supporting other paradigms.
bee_rider超过 2 年前
I feel kinda bad for Gnome. I don’t use their main program, but I’m sure it’s fine for what it is (Desktop environments seem like a kind of over-complicated unnecessary idea).<p>They seem to have, by sticking to their guns, become an absolute punching bag for the type of person who cares to complain about tedious UI issues.<p>It strikes me that they provide a pretty major community service by distracting that group.
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renewedrebecca超过 2 年前
The real problem with Gnome is that the user that they are targeting simply doesn&#x27;t exist. People who need a user friendly environment probably don&#x27;t need Linux in the first place.
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nickcox超过 2 年前
&gt; GNOME is the most used desktop environment<p>I find that pretty hard to believe without a citation.
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cbsmith超过 2 年前
&quot;While the GNOME Project is without their faults&quot;<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure that should be &quot;While the GNOME Project isn&#x27;t without their faults&quot;.
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PixelForg超过 2 年前
The only reason I&#x27;m still using Gnome is because their UI is consistent plus it&#x27;s easy to theme it as well(through Gradience), but I can&#x27;t deny that I hate the CSD initiative. I&#x27;m eagerly waiting for the new Cosmic DE from PopOs!
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chris_wot超过 2 年前
lol - this is why Gnome doesn&#x27;t have a volume slider:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.gnome.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=728585" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.gnome.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=728585</a>
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bitsavers超过 2 年前
Whoever wrote this managed to poorly express the design philosophy and also didn&#x27;t mention that the fork of the earlier version exists. At first it wasn&#x27;t even clear about what version of Gnome they were even talking about.
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kimixa超过 2 年前
If you don&#x27;t like Gnome, and it doesn&#x27;t cater to your requirements, there&#x27;s plenty of other options that may.<p>I don&#x27;t really understand people who keep saying they wish gnome was much more like KDE, for example - there&#x27;s already KDE existing in that space for users.<p>And it&#x27;s not like Gnome are paying distros to ship it as default - they ship it because the maintainers think it&#x27;s a sane default. Petitioning the distro maintainers would likely be a much more direct path if you disagreed with that and want to change it.
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xalt7x超过 2 年前
&gt; &quot;The goal is for the user to be able to do their job without being distracted&quot;<p>Please, enlighten me how notifications position on the top center of the screen is supposed to help with concentration on some task? It&#x27;ll rather distract and annoy me (as sometimes I accidentally misclick while switching browser tabs etc).
rektide超过 2 年前
&gt; There is one main reason I can think of. GNOME is the most used desktop environment, therefore it is the most susceptible to gain demands and pressure from users and companies.<p>Being the biggest isn&#x27;t cause enough for this perception.<p>GNOME, in the past decade, put itself in a remarkable position of prioritizing a perpetual-neophyte persona, who did not &amp; didn&#x27;t want to understand computers, and rebuilt the product around that persona. For a corporate desktop, where random people are handed GNOME &amp; told they have to use 1 app or maybe 2 or 3 on a computer, this is perhaps reasonably well calibrated. Look at many who fund GNOME Project, and this vision makes sense. But GNOME is a Linux desktop environment, and they have Linux users, and it turns out this chosen persona GNOME Project fixated on doesn&#x27;t only not line up very well, it actively rejects the premise of supporting the explorer, the tinkerer, the hobbyist, the learner. GNOME Project is quite literally the most visible open-source project on the planet, yet it has the most actively anti-open behavioralism &amp; targeting of probably any open-source project. It&#x27;s chosen a bounded mission, a narrow one, with incredibly bounded behaviors, and that runs counter to the open-source spirit of possibility &amp; exploration.<p>&gt; If you dislike the GNOME Project’s philosophy, then the solution is to simply not use GNOME.<p>In case you missed it the first time the author said it, the author comes back to re-confirm: GNOME is &quot;my way or the highyway.&quot;<p>GNOME is uniquely unflexible in almost all open source software in being so narrowly focused. Unlike most open source software, where adding features &amp; options is usually acceptable in some form or another, given compromise, GNOME believes in their one and only one persona, in the overarching vision of an extremely limited capabilities user. I can think of no other project that makes anti-flexibility such a priority, except maybe suckless, and frankly their extreme conservatism &amp; excess of attitude &amp; loudless is quite a turn off as well.<p>I&#x27;ve painted a pretty grim picture of what I think of GNOME Project, and I&#x27;m sorry to shove them under the bus like this because I think there are noble ideas mixed in with the totalitarianism. But I think their objectives are delusional &amp; off-base, and need re-assessing dearly, not just because many users don&#x27;t fit their model, but because their model of what a user is is actively bad &amp; harmful &amp; condescending &amp; makes things worse.<p>To give a nod to GNOME though, the author&#x27;s other article on the GNOME libadwaita controversy[1] is fairly good in many ways, &amp; talks through some of the pain &amp; complexity &amp; how difficult it is being such a highly visible project that other folks push-the-boundaries on. Freedom leads to &quot;mis-use,&quot; what GNOME Project seemingly lives in mortal fear of. The article isn&#x27;t perfect; I think their KDE examples are 98% horseshit justification (the first qt5ct example feels like strong support that themes work to me, not that they are bad, and most of the rest of the examples are of bad hardcoding that apps should fix, not systematic issues. And the net positive of not needing fractional scaling &amp; being able to adjust your theme seems enormous.). But the support burden experienced by GNOME seems legitemate &amp; real: flexibility has problems. Being an absolutist project that believes in yourself &amp; picks a way &amp; tells everyone else to hit the highway, we don&#x27;t want to do it is indeed a powerful technique to maintain quality &amp; reduce support burden.<p>This all circles back to a topic I mention time and time again: the Cathedral and the Bazaar. The &quot;Bazaar&quot; model of software development is complex &amp; hard &amp; there&#x27;s always unpolished things happening at the edge &amp; sometimes pieces of it stop making sense. There&#x27;s a alluring temptation to centralize, to pull in, to stop exploring, to obstruct users from going off the careful paths you&#x27;ve built for them, to marshal control. Many people in the world cry out that we must give up the Bazaar and instead build &quot;Cathedrals.&quot; GNOME Project decided at some point to become Cathedral builders. And that means telling a lot of people to hit the highway. And alas, it often seems like a Cathedral built primarily corporate users, not actual living flesh &amp; blood humans.<p>Postscript: as with most do-we-or-don&#x27;t-we software discussions, I highly recommend &quot;Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus&quot;[2] for more framing, that talks about stances of acceptance vs control. It&#x27;s helpful to think of GNOME in this framing &amp; it&#x27;s helpful to think of your own &amp; others around you&#x27;s approach to code. Recommend.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theevilskeleton.gitlab.io&#x2F;2022&#x2F;07&#x2F;28&#x2F;libadwaita-fixing-usability-problems-on-the-linux-desktop.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theevilskeleton.gitlab.io&#x2F;2022&#x2F;07&#x2F;28&#x2F;libadwaita-fixi...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;cornchz&#x2F;3313150" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;cornchz&#x2F;3313150</a>
brnt超过 2 年前
Why is it the default on nearly every distro is what I want to know.
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nycticorax超过 2 年前
Gnome keeps making big changes that hurt users and app developers, at least in the short term. (Presumably in pursuit of the Gnome developers&#x27; vision.) If you do that often enough, users and app developers find themselves basically in a continual state of pain, always adapting to the latest change. But the Gnome developers either don&#x27;t recognize this or don&#x27;t care (or care more about other things), because they keep doing it. Thus: &quot;My way or the highway&quot;.<p>I got tired of it, and the relentless dumbing-down of <i>everything</i>, and switched to KDE (in the form of Kubuntu). It&#x27;s nice! And the developers seem to understand that it mostly works OK, and they don&#x27;t need to force a UI paradigm shift on you (and their third-party app developers) every few years.
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traverseda超过 2 年前
&gt;The GNOME Project has a vision that it wants to push and perfect. Their philosophy, simply put, is “stay out of my way”.<p>Who&#x27;s way are they trying to stay out of? Like why do I need a keyboard shortcut in order to type out a file path when I try to upload a file in Firefox?<p>There&#x27;s some imagined user Who&#x27;s way they&#x27;re trying to stay out of, and it&#x27;s not my way, and it&#x27;s not any of my family Who&#x27;s computers I set up...
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