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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

727 点作者 jeffpalmer超过 2 年前

46 条评论

jlv2超过 2 年前
There really needs to be a distinction between an actual recall (my Model S had one to change the latch on the frunk) and this type of "recall" that is nothing more than an OTA software update.
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panick21_超过 2 年前
I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives.<p>Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases.<p>The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in &#x27;automotive security&#x27; is totally wrongly focused. What they should actually do is point out how insanely unsafe and broken the infrastructure is, specially for people outside of cars.<p>See: &quot;Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town&quot;
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apnew超过 2 年前
&gt; The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.<p>Does anyone have insights on what QA looks like at Tesla for FSD work? Because all of these seem table-stakes before even thinking about releasing the BETA FSD.
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lolinder超过 2 年前
Note that this recall just means that there&#x27;s a regulator-mandated patch, not that FSD is being removed.
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alluro2超过 2 年前
I generally root for Tesla as a former underdog who lit the fire under the asses of stagnating manufacturers, but, seeing videos of FSD in action, I&#x27;m fully on the side of people who think that calling it FSD should be considered fraud.<p>Given how much time and data they had so far, and the state it&#x27;s in, it really makes news like Zoox getting a testing permit for public roads, without any manual controls in the vehicle, seem crazy irresponsible and dangerous. Is it possible that they are just that much better at cracking autonomous driving?
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bhauer超过 2 年前
As posted on the Tesla subreddit [1]:<p>&gt; <i>Remedy: Tesla will release an over-the-air (OTA) software update, free of charge. Owner notification letters are expected to be mailed by April 15, 2023. Owners may contact Tesla customer service at 1-877-798-3752. Tesla&#x27;s number for this recall is SB-23-00-001.</i><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;teslamotors&#x2F;comments&#x2F;113wltl&#x2F;comment&#x2F;j8snxes&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;teslamotors&#x2F;comments&#x2F;113wltl&#x2F;commen...</a>
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kbos87超过 2 年前
The amount of hyperbole and completely uninformed takes around FSD is eye opening.<p>I’ll completely agree that “Full self driving” is a misleading name, and they should be forced to change it, full stop.<p>That being said, it’s exceptionally clear that all the responsibility is on you, the driver, while you are using it. The messaging in the vehicle is concise and constant (not just the wall of text you read when opting in.) Eye tracking makes sure you are actually engaged and looking at the road, otherwise the car will disengage and you’ll eventually lose the ability to use FSD. Why is there never a mention of this in any coverage? Because it’s more salacious to believe people are asleep at the wheel.<p>Is it perfect? No, though it’s a lot better than many people seem to want the world to believe. It’s so easy to overlook the fact that human drivers are also very, very far from perfect.
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woeirua超过 2 年前
Remains to be seen what the OTA patch will actually do. If they could make FSD work correctly they would have _already_ done it. So, my guess is more smoke and mirrors to mislead the NHTSA, and then NHTSA will come down with the ban hammer on FSD and require them to disable it entirely.
yawz超过 2 年前
&quot;Tesla will deliver an over-the-air software update to cars to address the issues, the recall notice said&quot;<p>A bit of a sensational title compared to what this really is.
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jonny_eh超过 2 年前
Does a recall like this actually mean owners return their car to Tesla for modification? Or would it be an over-the-air update to remove FSD?
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joewadcan超过 2 年前
Recall = Over the Air Update.<p>Not nothing, but not as big as CNBC is making it out to be.
oblib超过 2 年前
Splitting hairs on the definition of &quot;recall&quot; of a potential deadly flaw in 362,758 automobiles is silly. But is is the correct word for that industry when there is one.<p>I worked at a Oldsmobile dealer in the 80s and fixed all kinds of issues on cars that were &quot;recalled&quot; and that is what we called it way back then and long before it. Some were trivial and others were serious safety issues.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kbb.com&#x2F;car-advice&#x2F;what-do-i-need-to-know-about-recalls&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kbb.com&#x2F;car-advice&#x2F;what-do-i-need-to-know-about-...</a>
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robomartin超过 2 年前
If Tesla are not careful with this, drivers of other vehicles will have serious reservations being anywhere around a Tesla. I have to say, I already do.<p>I will not stay behind or next to a Tesla if I can avoid it. I&#x27;ll avoid being in front of one if the distance is such that I cannot react if the thing decides to suddenly accelerate or, while stopping, not break enough or at all.<p>In other words, I have no interest in risking my life and that of my family based on decisions made by both Tesla drivers (engaging drive-assist while not paying attention, sleeping, etc.) or Tesla engineering.<p>Will this sentiment change? Over time. Sure. If we do the right things. My gut feeling is program similar to crash testing safety will need to be instituted at some point.<p>A qualified government agency needs to come-up with a serious &quot;torture&quot; test for self-driving cars. Cars must pass a range of required scenario response requirements. Cars will need to be graded based on the result of running the test suite. And, of course, the test suite needs to include an evaluation of scenario response under various failure modes (sensor damage, impairment, disablement and computing system issues).<p>I am not for greatly expanded government regulation over everything in our lives. However, something like this would, in my opinion, more than justify it. This isn&#x27;t much different from aircraft and aircraft system certification or medical device testing and licensing.
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1970-01-01超过 2 年前
I found an interesting phrase in the official report. NHTSA formally says that not respecting &#x27;local driving customs&#x27; is a defect:<p><pre><code> ...the feature could potentially infringe upon local traffic *laws or customs* while executing certain driving maneuvers... </code></pre> Do they want Tesla to create a DB with &#x27;allowed&#x27; and &#x27;locally faux pas&#x27; driving maneuvers? It sure reads like they do.
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sergiotapia超过 2 年前
I thought emperically, statistically, the number of crashes from FSD was drastically lower than human drivers. Was this number hogwash or is this just lawboys saying the number must be 0 before it&#x27;s allowed on the road?<p>If so, that&#x27;s pretty crazy and people will die because of this decision.
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alberth超过 2 年前
Dumb question: why would anyone sign-up for a beta program, that could kill you if gone wrong?<p>(maybe people just don&#x27;t think through ramifications)
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rootusrootus超过 2 年前
Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more <i>confident</i> in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would release an L3 capable car too.<p>To be fair, though, Tesla has no sensors other than cameras, and I believe the Mercedes has a half dozen or so, several radars and even a lidar.
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supernova87a超过 2 年前
I wonder what severity &#x2F; frequency of incidents or regulator awareness required them to actually come out and say that they&#x27;re issuing a recall, rather than just quietly putting it into an upcoming release like they probably would otherwise do?
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moralestapia超过 2 年前
That&#x27;s 4-5B USD worth of fraud. This thing could actually be quite dangerous for TSLA. One class-action lawsuit around this and they&#x27;re bankrupt.<p>Edit: Dang, you&#x27;re all right, they could eat this and still be alive.<p>My whole sentiment comes from FSD being their big shot (and everything that comes with that, like the robotaxis and whatnot). Without FSD, they&#x27;re &quot;just another car company&quot; and the market is already thriving with good alternatives (Audi&#x27;s EVs are jaw dropping, at least for me). Excited to see what they announce on March 1st, though.
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clouddrover超过 2 年前
It&#x27;s irrelevant anyway. None of those cars will be retrofit with Hardware 4:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;electrek.co&#x2F;2023&#x2F;02&#x2F;15&#x2F;tesla-self-driving-hw4-computer-leaks-teardown&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;electrek.co&#x2F;2023&#x2F;02&#x2F;15&#x2F;tesla-self-driving-hw4-comput...</a><p>So much for the &quot;full self-driving&quot; fantasy all those people paid for but will not get.
can16358p超过 2 年前
So are they recalling, or releasing a software fix?
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w0mbat超过 2 年前
An automatic software update is not a recall.
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jeffbee超过 2 年前
The word &quot;assertive&quot; does not appear in the comments but this recall is about the &quot;Assertive&quot; FSD profile, which speeds and runs stop signs. It is not a defect it is a design flaw.
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maxdo超过 2 年前
FSD beta is a super weird beast. I managed to go in New York with 0 interventions to my friend 3-4 miles away one day, yet another day it can act stupid, and barely handle a trivial intersection.
tevon超过 2 年前
These articles really need to add a denominator to their numbers.
londons_explore超过 2 年前
This just a few days before the much anticipated &#x27;v11&#x27; software release...<p>V11 supposedly uses neural nets for deciding the driving path and speed (rather than hand coded C++ rules).
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peoplearepeople超过 2 年前
So at what point is a refund required?
cfr2023超过 2 年前
Head and shoulders above even QC problems at DeLorean Motor Company. Impressive, really.
ubermonkey超过 2 年前
Both predictable AND overdue.
totalhack超过 2 年前
Thanks to the Tesla owners on the front lines risking their lives for the greater good (of Tesla)!<p>Jokes aside, it&#x27;s gotta be damn tough to QA a system like this in any sort of way that resembles full coverage. Can&#x27;t even really define what full test coverage means.
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stainablesteel超过 2 年前
i&#x27;ve never understood why people were excited for self-driving to begin with, i would never feel safe even if it was fullproof
bdastous超过 2 年前
They should rename it KSD.
coding123超过 2 年前
Lets all guess on the countdown to the laser approach being announced.
swyx超过 2 年前
is this the largest car recall in history? holy crap<p>edit: looks like no.. the largest was 578607 cars... also by Tesla lol
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armatav超过 2 年前
It’s a software update
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ckwalsh超过 2 年前
I have a Model 3, and was excited to get the FSD beta access about a month ago. I don&#x27;t use it super regularly, but it&#x27;s neat.<p>This morning I tried to turn it on, and the car immediately veered left into the oncoming lane on a straight, 2 lane road. Fortunately, there were no other vehicles nearby.<p>I immediately turned it off in the settings, and have no intention of re-enabling.
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adoxyz超过 2 年前
I still can&#x27;t believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I&#x27;ve had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.
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causi超过 2 年前
I&#x27;m astonished consumers are <i>still</i> paying fifteen thousand dollars to be guinea pigs for this bullshit. No car that currently has tires on the road is going to let you fall asleep in your driveway and wake up at work.
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saudade97超过 2 年前
The amount of Tesla apologism in HN is nasueasting. Per the NHTSA, a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards. On its face, Tesla&#x27;s situation clearly calls out for classification as a recall.
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thepasswordis超过 2 年前
It seems like there is a huge disconnect between people who know about FSD from <i>using it</i> and people who know about FSD from things they read on the internet.<p>I have FSD, I use it every single day. I love it. If every car on the road had this the road would be a <i>substantially</i> safer place.
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jdelman超过 2 年前
The confusion from multiple HN posters here confirms that the &quot;recall&quot; language is inadequate to capture what is happening here.<p>Obviously attention should be drawn to the fact that there is a critical safety update being pushed OTA, but &quot;recall&quot; is too overloaded a term if it means both &quot;we&#x27;re taking this back and destroying it because it&#x27;s fundamentally flawed&quot; vs. &quot;a software update is being pushed to your vehicle (which may or may not be fundamentally flawed...)&quot;<p>I do think something beyond &quot;software update&quot; is necessary, though - these aren&#x27;t your typical &quot;bug fixes and improvements&quot; type release notes that accompany many app software releases these days. I don&#x27;t think it would be too difficult to come up with appropriate language. &quot;Critical Safety Update&quot;?
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idlewords超过 2 年前
I love that this is the same guy who wants to send people to Mars one-way and then figure out the return trip later.
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nmca超过 2 年前
Because this is a mandatory OTA patch and does not involve stock being physically returned or taken for repair (as is typically implied by &quot;recall&quot;) this headline is clearly very misleading.
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slt2021超过 2 年前
Knowing how software engineers write code - I would never ever trust my life to the BS that is FSD.<p>It is not so much software, as well as &lt;other people on the road&gt; problem.
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pellucide超过 2 年前
Folks with Tesla FSD, please find an empty parking lot and drive all you want. It helps Tesla&#x27;s mission. Please don&#x27;t test it on real roads. At least not on busy roads
auggierose超过 2 年前
You must be really stupid to use any kind of self-driving feature. I wish you would die in your bed before you can try it on the road.