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A reason why Mac speakers sound better and louder than most

395 点作者 1915cb1f大约 2 年前

35 条评论

kkielhofner大约 2 年前
Interesting the author says “other manufacturers don’t bother”. Unsurprisingly the real reason is “Apple was granted a patent on this over a decade ago and no one is risking an Apple patent infringement lawsuit over laptop speakers”.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;patents.google.com&#x2F;patent&#x2F;US20130329898" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;patents.google.com&#x2F;patent&#x2F;US20130329898</a><p>EDIT: I say granted because that’s how most people understand patents and when they take effect. What really matters on the timeline here is the filing (priority) date and the grant (publish date).<p>It’s patents so it gets really complicated but essentially the later grant (after patent office&#x2F;authority “review”) more or less makes the effective date the priority date - which to complicate matters even further can actually be the filing date of a referenced provisional patent that (in the US) can be as long as 12 months before the non-provisional (real) patent filing.<p>Clear as mud, right?
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brundolf大约 2 年前
Love this PS:<p>&gt; This post brought to you by gdb and grep -a, because after typing all that out as a quote toot and deciding that nah, I wanted it standalone, I clicked the &quot;x&quot; next to the quote box (which implies removing the quote association) and that didn&#x27;t just cancel the quote, it deleted all the text.<p>&gt; So I attached gdb to the Firefox content process hosting this tab, took a core dump, and grepped it for the lost text. I wasn&#x27;t about to write all that again from scratch.
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bob1029大约 2 年前
I have always noted this when listening to music on my M1 MBP. &quot;There is NO way my tweeters aren&#x27;t about to explode!&quot; I recall how quickly the speakers in my Microsoft surface laptop self-destructed...<p>In my experience, the #1 prerequisite to driving a speaker this aggressively <i>without destroying it</i> is having a clean source of power. Hard distortion and clipping are what break voice coils in direct, physical terms. Thermals can be tolerated over brief durations.<p>I have found (in larger scale pro audio) that the amplifier topology can have a major impact on the amount of real power you can put into a loudspeaker. One of the most popular is Class D because it requires virtually no magnetics (i.e. no toroidal transformers). The tradeoff is that it needs to have a lot of safety nannies at the extremes and will have to attenuate aggressive program material. You almost always have to put a full-time DSP on these amplifiers.<p>Compare this to Class A,A&#x2F;B, G or H topologies which can be pushed well-beyond rated supply amperage for brief durations (i.e. your lights will dim slightly, rather than the amp&#x2F;DSP limiting its power draw). You can drive these with any kind of signal you please, filtered with nannies or otherwise. These topologies are where I go when I want to be able to reach to DC on a loudspeaker and am willing to replace the drivers if I bump a knob the wrong way.
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jasoneckert大约 2 年前
A month ago, Hector did an amazing talk on Asahi that was essentially was a talk on &quot;What it takes to make an open source project work&quot;: community, tooling, considering users (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=COlvP4hODpY">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=COlvP4hODpY</a>).<p>And one of the examples he gave regarding &quot;considering users&quot; was why they chose to disable speaker support until they could ensure user safety, as well as ensure a quality sound experience.<p>When discussing open source projects and communities in academia, we often try to categorize every aspect, as well as focus on projects that failed and why. I try to do the opposite and instead focus on what worked and why - and the Asahi project is a stellar example of how to do an open source project well on every level.
jacksgt大约 2 年前
Off topic: it&#x27;s such a breath of fresh air to read this content without 1) having to close half a dozen popups and 2) all in a single post and not painfully spread out across multiple messages.
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ansgri大约 2 年前
The post is interesting itself, but the addendum,<p>&gt; This post brought to you by gdb and grep -a<p>Where author recovers text from Firefox core dump, is just hilarious.
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andrewmcwatters大约 2 年前
Patents are interesting. IIRC, Apple has a patent on a method of creating a fast Gaussian blur by combining multiple low-radius blurs to create a large radius blur in real-time.<p>I remember looking into this because I was so confused how Apple could create a fast real-time Gaussian blur with a large radius with no latency.<p>Even game developers fail to do this, utilizing other blurs like box blurs instead to create the effect.<p>Turns out this approach is mathematically equivalent or such a close approximation that it&#x27;s visually indistinguishable.<p>Not related to laptop speakers, of course, but just a thought that came up as I was thinking about patents on small but important concepts.
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captainmuon大约 2 年前
I wonder how they model the energy output of the speakers. In principle you could have a function that calculates the energy of the spectrum and integrate that over time. If you put out too much energy, what do you do? Reduce the overall volume, apply a frequency cutoff, or a low-pass-filter? I feel there are so many variables here, and it is going to be hard to replicate what Apple does.<p>I know the Asahi-Linux people are very correct, but I&#x27;d be tempted to just throw the Apple libraries into Ghidra and see what they do.<p>And a completely unreleated thought, maybe it is possible to remove the safetly limits on speakers of other brands and apply the same strategy to get better sound?
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bluedino大约 2 年前
This becomes apparent when people join calls with others who are using MacBooks and iPads. Why does everyone else sound better? Why is my company-issued Dell&#x2F;HP laptop equipped with terrible speakers and microphone?<p>This can be fixed by giving them a headset.<p>It sounds dumb but one thing that keeps me from dropping my Mac for a Lenovo 100% is the speaker quality. It&#x27;s nice enough to play music at a moderate level on my desk while I work on my corporate machine.<p>This could probably be fixed by buying an external speaker but...
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graderjs大约 2 年前
When I first got my current MacBook Air the sound totally surprised me. It seemed like it was coming from places to the left and to the right of the actual device. I kept moving my head around that space to try to find the weird source of the sound! It truly blew me away. But then that sensation disappeared. Now I don&#x27;t notice this? I like the AirPod head tracking, but this &quot;spookily surround sound&quot; that I noticed at first was very fucking cool!
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blackhaz大约 2 年前
I still don&#x27;t get it why, because they drive them past the nominal volume limit?<p>MacBooks definitely sound much better than anything else I&#x27;ve tried. Just bought a new ThinkPad P14s and despite featuring the Dolby logo, speakers there are just unusable - I can barely understand words in YouTube videos sometimes, and it&#x27;s not related to volume. (Still using T430 for bedtime YouTube.)
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kilianinbox大约 2 年前
Actually, I did indeed blow out the left speaker on my back then new MacBook Pro late 2016 - no tweaks to the hardware or software. It happened while I was experimenting with Ableton and the synth operator. I think I held a pure sine tone at either 66.6 Hz or 82.222222 Hz for an extended period at near-maximum volume, possibly with some frequency modulation. Sadly, the speaker became permanently distorted as an aftermath of that little mishap.
fnord123大约 2 年前
This is curious reading since my Intel MacBook speakers crackled all the time as it grounded through me.
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thrdbndndn大约 2 年前
Is this post part of a longer one? Because after reading it I still don&#x27;t understand a thing.<p>Did they mean it&#x27;s done in software (i.e. not hardware)?
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2636381321大约 2 年前
I wonder if malware could bypass the speaker safety daemon and potentially damage hardware or even start a fire? Looks like Apple is relying too much on TrustZone and Secure Boot to prevent physical hardware damage?<p>Also, Apple can now say that jailbreaking the devices could present a physical safety issue. So one more reason for making jailbreaking illegal?
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Mizza大约 2 年前
My Mac speakers sound like shit because running a loud filter sweep in VCV Rack will break them and make them sound buzzy forever.
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amluto大约 2 年前
The idea of feedback-based <i>userspace</i> software thermal management like this seems suboptimal to me — the failure modes are nasty. (By feedback-based, I mean using V&#x2F;I sense from the amp.)<p>The goal is to prevent the voice coil from overheating, ever. So some kind of calculation runs at some interval t, and it needs to ensure that, over the upcoming time t, the input to the amp can’t possibly overheat the coil, and of course it can’t use V&#x2F;I sense data to do understand the upcoming heat input.<p>So, at best, one estimates the coil temperature and comes up with an upper bound on how much heat can be added over time t (either based on worst-case music, e.g. a 0dBFS square wave or based on the actual samples), and either allows the next group of samples to be sent to the amp or not.<p>But this is all a tradeoff with real-time performance and battery life. You want t to be long to minimize performance impact and power consumption, especially if user code is involved. But you want t to be short to maximize the ability to play loud music, especially if you aren’t looking at the actual upcoming waveform.<p>And you don’t want your speakers to burn out of you are doing something CPU intensive and your userspace daemon doesn’t schedule.<p>To me, this all suggests that an in-kernel solution could work a lot better. The kernel is involved in sending samples to the hardware anyway — it has the opportunity to look at those samples <i>right then</i>, calculate the integrated power (could be as simple as the sum of the squares or even just a constant!), and decide whether it’s safe. And fetch the V&#x2F;I sense data to figure out the status, and reduce the volume if it fails. And if the kernel code pushing samples to hardware stops running for whatever reason, the sound is inherently muted as long as the hardware isn’t configured to loop &#x27;90’s broken CD style.
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zamadatix大约 2 年前
I wonder how much energy&#x2F;CPU all this uses compared to not monitoring and compressing the sound channels per speaker. It seems like “don’t run the daemon and let it go to -14db” is a valid option if it’s problematic though. I don’t really listen to music, I’m just looking forward to terminal dings and conference calls without headphones so will lean towards battery life.
wyager大约 2 年前
I&#x27;ve noticed that my M1 MBP provides a seemingly implausible degree of stereo width (the left and right channel sound as if they are at a physically more extreme angle relative to your head than they actually are) but only if you are in the right place relative to the laptop. Also, if you play a pure R tone, you will hear it in the L speaker (wlog). This leads me to suspect they are doing some phasing tricks to increase the perception of stereo (again, assuming you&#x27;re in the right place relative to the laptop).
tiborsaas大约 2 年前
I&#x27;ve given this 3 reads and I still don&#x27;t understand what he wants to say and I&#x27;m producing music since 2001, not a professional level, but still :) Is it a software or a hardware trick by Apple? I&#x27;m totally confused :)<p>I&#x27;ve assumed that Macbook Pros sound great because Apple put decent speakers into it and the alu-body picks up resonances much better than plastic ones.
ofrzeta大约 2 年前
I was expecting to learn more about the hardware (planar magnetic speakers as far as I know). There&#x27;s surprisingly little info on this.
eimrine大约 2 年前
The article gives an answer to &quot;louder&quot; question but not &quot;better&quot; one.<p>As far as I have understood the screen after the text, Mac speakers are not 1-way but at least 2-way (every channel contains a speaker for bass and a speaker for higher frequences). That is the answer about quality of sound, there are no speakers which can play both highs and lows in nice quality.
golergka大约 2 年前
&gt; during the dubstep parts of the song, the snares sound nice and crisp. At those points, the tweeters are probably putting out 2-4x the amount of power they could handle without melting - briefly. But then when the nasty clipped lead comes in, that overloads them a lot more and the safety daemon clamps down on the tweeter volume.<p>That&#x27;s called compression.
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endorphine大约 2 年前
Kinda off-topic: I remember reading that Apple laptops from 2021(?) onwards got a DAC (digital-to-analog converter) upgrade, making their DAC a pretty decent option with which you can avoid buying an external one.<p>Anyone knows how much truth there is to the above? I&#x27;m sure the answer is more nuanced than that and depend on various factors.
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RicoElectrico大约 2 年前
Dell bundles Waves MaxxAudio Pro with its laptops and apart from cheesy stereo widening it does the job of boosting bass and making the sound louder.<p>Theoretically it&#x27;s possible to replicate it using Windows filter drivers. It&#x27;s something I would like to do - some multi-band compressor is what&#x27;s probably needed.
ksec大约 2 年前
281 Comments and no one has yet touch on what I thought was the more important topic;<p>&gt;Oh yay, HN found my post. I don&#x27;t do HN any more, but to answer some of the comments there:<p>We now have fewer expert on HN and HN is fast becoming another Reddit.
retskrad大约 2 年前
I keep trying out Android phones and Windows laptops but the hardware are always inferior to Apple products. The competition has caught up and even surpassed Apple in Software but Apple has a big lead in chips, speakers, build quality.
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causality0大约 2 年前
Most laptop speakers can be significantly improved by applying a calibration profile using a program like Fxsound. Took mine from &quot;godawful&quot; to simply mediocre.
harby2000大约 2 年前
I’m always amazed how big the soundstage is on a MacBook Air. Sometimes in certain content I hear things coming from left and right of me, as if it’s surround sound.
thefz大约 2 年前
IDK, it pales in comparison to any decent monitor speaker. Even the cheapest.<p>Laptops unfortunately always sounds &quot;from inside a cardboard box&quot;.
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alright_scowl大约 2 年前
Except they don&#x27;t? I hate the speaker sound on the Mac I use for work.<p>Unless &quot;so good&quot; in the title means &quot;not as awful as other shitty laptop speakers&quot;, but even that is a poor statement, when the text in the link makes only mentions some vaguely interesting technical musings, without comparing it to anything else.<p>The way the title is written makes it sound just like any other inane data point of people gushing over Macs.
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fortran77大约 2 年前
They’re “louder and better״ for techno fans who like the sssssst ssssssst ssssssst.
creddit大约 2 年前
Meta comment: the UI of mastodon is really bad.
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singularity2001大约 2 年前
The speakers of the mac mini sounds absolutely horrendous!
jbverschoor大约 2 年前
Ok, buggy software might explain why my M1 speakers, and the motherboard had to be replaced within a year?
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