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What Korzybski got wrong about the map and the territory

29 点作者 vitabenes大约 2 年前

12 条评论

ineptech大约 2 年前
I don&#x27;t think the author quite groks the map&#x2F;territory distinction that Korzybski goes on and on about.<p>&gt; A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey. Knowing your way around a place isn&#x27;t remotely like map-knowledge. Korzybski almost gets this point. Whatever is happening as we represent the flow of sensation in words has a weak and fragile grip on things outside of the mind. Words can only express a tiny slice of what we experience of the world.<p>In other words, he&#x27;s complaining that a &quot;map&quot; (as in, paper with a drawing of some terrain on it) is a poor and limited stand-in for a &quot;map&quot; (as in mental model of some phenomenon). But that&#x27;s exactly what Korzybski was saying! All maps are poor and limited, by virtue of being maps, even the one implied by &quot;The map is not the territory&quot; which uses physical terrain maps as a model for models generally.<p>To be fair, Korzybski was prolific and most of his writing is pretty opaque and I don&#x27;t understand 90% of his output (and I consider myself a huge fan!) so I may be misunderstanding OP&#x27;s point, or misrepresenting Korzybski&#x27;s. I&#x27;m just adding my two cents&#x27; worth because I was very heavily influenced by General Semantics (the parts I can understand) and am always excited to see it discussed.
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ChrisMarshallNY大约 2 年前
I always liked the Swiss Army take on that:<p><i>&gt; When the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain.</i>
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avgcorrection大约 2 年前
This article takes a koan-like saying and both over-explains it, uses it to draw in all sorts of misc. topics (AI?), and abuses the metaphor (“A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters on a journey.”).
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probablypower大约 2 年前
&gt; Korzybski: The map isn&#x27;t the territory.<p>&gt; This article: The map isn&#x27;t the experienced territory isn&#x27;t the territory.<p>This seems over-thought and tautological. It just reinforces to me that Korzybski was wise. The article was also needlessly meandering for my tastes, but I guess some people like &quot;making their way down the trail&quot; of a blogpost.
sn41大约 2 年前
Somewhat related: I personally found Korzybski&#x27;s &quot;General Semantics&quot; approach to be useful when preventing myself from making unsafe generalizations - for example, &quot;This guy is always on a rant about something&quot;. The concept of time-binding is very useful in keeping an open mind in meetings so that past events do not color the present interactions unnecessarily.<p>I know that Korzybski is now associated with the dubious NLP movement, but I was curious to know - is he taken seriously outside of NLP?
larsrc大约 2 年前
What is the author on and where can I get some? Or is it an AI hallucinating? Can we even tell the difference? Are the AIs ready to pass the Stoner Turing test?
barathr大约 2 年前
Chapman had a good, very detailed essay on this topic:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;metarationality.com&#x2F;maps-and-territory" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;metarationality.com&#x2F;maps-and-territory</a>
bitsinthesky大约 2 年前
Just scrolling through the article, trying to get a sense of what it&#x27;s about. I see Territory and Maps (was Korzybski the man who mapped The New World?), it quickly shifts to the Bene Gesserit, and then finishes with stuff on Consciousness. Lots going on :) I thank the comments for a clearer depiction of the article&#x27;s contents.
armitron大约 2 年前
&quot;Walking out of the woods in the early hours of the night to get a tow cable for your buddy’s stuck truck is an experience that can’t translate into a map. We have contact with reality on a deeper level than the “maps” we use to navigate it consciously.&quot;<p>Farcical, Korzybski would have slapped him hard.
StrangeATractor大约 2 年前
Hell of a coincidence, I just bought a bunch of Korzybski.<p>Oddly enough, he&#x27;s kind of difficult to find nowadays.
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smitty1e大约 2 年前
I was not familiar with the source and context, but the phrase is literally true.<p>The global territory is 3D; the map is 2D. Reducing the dimensionality introduces distortion. The map is <i>always</i> a lie. A decent cartographer reduces the lie to a fib. A bad one emits propaganda and enables the worst tyranny.<p>The observation extends to all research. The only model for reality is precisely that: reality itself.<p>This is not an anti-science screed. Rather, a reminder to keep it humble. Purity is for mathematicians.
BLKNSLVR大约 2 年前
Obligatory link to Borges&#x27; story (paragraph) about the map versus the terrain:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;genius.com&#x2F;Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-science-annotated" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;genius.com&#x2F;Jorge-luis-borges-on-exactitude-in-scienc...</a>