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In Defense of No-Code’s Potential

60 点作者 pgayed大约 2 年前

18 条评论

scrumper大约 2 年前
A couple weeks ago I&#x27;d have agreed with this wholeheartedly. The complexity ceiling in particular. But then I found myself having to quickly do a bunch of &quot;creative coding&quot; to come up with some realtime visuals to support a stage show. I auditioned a bunch of things like processing.js, Rust equivalents etc., but also Max&#x2F;Jitter, TouchDesigner, and something called Isadora. Those latter three are all basically no-code environments for visual and audio programming. They have building blocks like wave generators and dividers and things, they look (to a musician) like a modular synth but it&#x27;s absolutely programming, and can be at a fairly low level (you find yourself implementing logic gates naturally, for example).<p>Anyway... I thought I&#x27;d struggle without a language to call into but in fact they work really well. I settled on Isadora (on a metric of fastest-time-to-cool-output) and I haven&#x27;t hit a limit yet.<p>So my reason for writing all this is that I think, and I know I am rambling here, that domain specificity is an important factor in the success of a low&#x2F;no code tool. Generality exposes the complexity ceiling.
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narag大约 2 年前
My not so humble opinion: rather than making no-code tools, improve the usability of the yes-code tools, simplifying them and removing decades of cruft. Start by identifying the silos, including the allegedly open ones. Then, from first priciples, just trace the shorter line from ideas to drawing in the screen. Anything longer than two tokens for a &quot;hello world&quot; is an indictment against any language. If you don&#x27;t understand that, you&#x27;re unqualified to create a language.
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shireboy大约 2 年前
The most important requirement IMO is his last: a clear off ramp. Export to code would be nice, but what I think the market really wants is to go back and forth between a coded and no coded experience. Let me start a quick app in nocode editor, open in code editor to tweak something and add feature I know I can do quicker in code, then let my non-tech coworker adjust as needed, but then I edit in code when he breaks something. And be open source, popular, pluggable, etc like author suggests. All the benefits of no code, all the benefits of code, with no walled garden.<p>A guy can dream at least.
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bitwize大约 2 年前
&gt; That’s the potential of no-code: making it easier for people to do more with computers without needing to know how to program.<p>This is the critical argument against no-code, the one argument omitted from the article: No-code doesn&#x27;t make programming go away. Any time you have graphical flowchart symbols or whatever specific enough for a computer to execute, you have something isomorphic to a computer programming language. Except it&#x27;s more difficult to change, maintain, move around, read or edit with different tools, version control, etc. No-code <i>is</i> programming, with extra hassle. And the hardness doesn&#x27;t go away -- in fact, businesses that adopt no-code tools so their marketers or managers can create automation tasks, tend to throw those tasks over the wall to the software engineers once their original authors find that programming is hard and they have much better things to do with their time than debug flowcharts.
glimmung大约 2 年前
That was a good read - liked the balance, and agree with his description of the ideal product, which is very close to mine. I don&#x27;t need a desktop product, as long as it can run on premises and in the environment&#x27;s native browser and meets the user&#x27;s expectations in terms of the UI.<p>I&#x27;d add the option of commercial hosting and support to that list, which led me to Budibase - great product, although in the end I was left feeling &quot;no code - but <i>so</i> many clicks!&quot;, although I have not gone back to look at v2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;budibase.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;budibase.com&#x2F;</a><p>The author might care to take a look at Saltcorn, which is in the &quot;Goldilocks&quot; zone for me - enough of everything, not too much of anything. I should write that up myself. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;saltcorn.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;saltcorn.com&#x2F;</a><p>(edited to add line re. web vs. native)
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SanderNL大约 2 年前
It forces business people to think deeply about every detail, which is the very thing they are delegating. If they were good at that, they would be programmers themselves.
mlajtos大约 2 年前
&gt; Find all of the phone numbers of form 0001234567 in a document and convert them to (000) 123-4567<p>&gt; Reorder a photo directory from year&#x2F;event&#x2F;photo to event&#x2F;year&#x2F;photo<p>&gt; Check daily on a few airbnbs to see if any lowered their prices<p>&gt; Sending a PDF on your computer to your kindle via Amazon’s “email the file” thingy<p>&gt; Check if there’s a Cubs game today to avoid the trains<p>&gt; Take some structured data and put it into a template<p>I believe that all these kind of tasks will be fully doable through ChatGPT(-like) assistant.
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WillAdams大约 2 年前
I&#x27;d really like to see someone get this right, but the problem is we don&#x27;t seem to know the answer and are asking the wrong question:<p>&gt;What does an algorithm look like?<p>Flowcharting and diagramming pre-date computers and used to be popular ways to define software workflows --- why hasn&#x27;t that directly translated into coding?<p>The Drakon Editor folks short-circuit this with the idea that the desirable option is always straight down --- is that a viable solution?<p>The Node Editor folks have solutions which some folks use, but there are also sites filled with literal visual spaghetti code:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com&#x2F;</a><p>It&#x27;s been the better part of a century since Herman Hesse wrote _The Glass Bead Game_, but the most flexible systems still end up as a wall of text, which can be hard to format, or which one limits to plain text --- all-too few programmers avail themselves of:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;literateprogramming.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;literateprogramming.com&#x2F;</a><p>One promising development is Nintendo&#x27;s _Game Builder&#x27;s Garage_:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nintendo.com&#x2F;store&#x2F;products&#x2F;game-builder-garage-switch&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nintendo.com&#x2F;store&#x2F;products&#x2F;game-builder-garage-...</a><p>(which when I gifted it to a co-worker&#x27;s son was described as &quot;This is the greatest game ever!&quot;)<p>These days I mostly do 3D, so have been using BlocksCAD:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blockscad3d.com&#x2F;community&#x2F;users&#x2F;67750#&#x2F;?_k=7br97u" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blockscad3d.com&#x2F;community&#x2F;users&#x2F;67750#&#x2F;?_k=7br97...</a><p>and OpenSCAD Graph Editor:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;derkork&#x2F;openscad-graph-editor">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;derkork&#x2F;openscad-graph-editor</a><p>I&#x27;d love to see a similar tool for making a GUI program.
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Dowwie大约 2 年前
It doesn&#x27;t need a defense. It has been recognized since the beginning of computing as playing an important role. University in late 90s early 2000s called it rapid application development. RAD tools have come a long way since then. ChatGPT is being used as a RAD tool with mixed success. I&#x27;m optimistic about where it will be in 5 years. Great potential.
creshal大约 2 年前
Most of the arguments seem alright enough, but<p>&gt; Native &gt; &gt; I can see some of the benefits of cloud-based no-code, but then you can’t work with the computer. Ideally it should also “feel” like a native program, too.<p>That would&#x27;ve made for a good argument in 2000, maybe in 2010, but today? Corporate computers are usually locked down too much to allow installing native programs (and for good reason); while more and more households no longer bother with a full-on computer, relying more and more on phones and tablets.<p>If you really want to bring no-code in the form of easier automation to the masses, it has to be accessible from a web browser. Especially if has to run regularly to check on things; even among those who still have a desktop, many wouldn&#x27;t want to keep it running 24&#x2F;7 nor can necessarily guarantee good enough network connectivity.
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aae42大约 2 年前
The article mentions VB6 but I would think Microsoft Access would be the much more widely used platform
ralala大约 2 年前
Software development is easy, maintenance is challenging. When your system integrates with other systems and you want to make changes, it&#x27;s critical to understand the details. I doubt people without IT background should be in charge of such processes.
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thunderbong大约 2 年前
From the article -<p>&gt; Step one, take a paragraph of text, any paragraph, and uppercase everything. No catch here, just make it allcaps.<p>&gt; Step two, find a bunch of friends who don’t know how to program and ask them how they’d do the same thing.<p>This is so, so true. Even amongst programmers. I&#x27;ve lost count of the number of experienced developers I&#x27;ve seen who go to an online JSON viewer site [0] to parse the server response!<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jsononline.net&#x2F;json-viewer" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jsononline.net&#x2F;json-viewer</a>
dusted大约 2 年前
I&#x27;ve always felt the hardest thing is not to write the code to do the thing.. The hardest thing for me has always been to figure out what the thing to do is..
peter-m80大约 2 年前
Building a flowchart with events and conditions is programming. Just a visual domain language.<p>But harder to maintain. Harder to version and see diffs, harder to test....
32gbsd大约 2 年前
No code fails because its promises &quot;coding&quot; like features. I think it would be more successful if it did not try to be a gateway drug into programming. Its best if it just does its own thing.
smitty1e大约 2 年前
The Famous Article: &gt; So basically Visual Basic 6. VB6 was great! But we’re not going to get a better VB6 because the economics just aren’t there anymore. As programmers we expect all of our languages to be free and open source, but that’s actually super super weird. Most of the time people try to sell their software for “money”, and the clients with “money” are businesses. VB6 just happened to be released at a time when businesses needed to make desktop applications. Now all the money is in the web applications, so no-code people are selling tools to make web applications.<p>This is one of my standing questions. In a purportedly capitalist system, why does unfilled demand exist in a market?<p>The reason that comes to mind is non-capitalist drivers affecting the market. Do we need to address those, or confess that we&#x27;re less capitalist than the press releases say?
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danielvaughn大约 2 年前
It sounds like what he is proposing is a native Zapier.