Startup dudes: Cut the sexist crap

For context, here's the text of the audio of the guy introducing her:<p>"So Rebecca Lovell is the chief business officer of Geekwire, and I got to know– you can read the bio– what's written, but just for some personal color: So, Rebecca took over as executive director of the Northwest Entrepreneur network while I was on the board there and just blew us all away with her expertise, her knowledge, her connections, and her charm. And when we were putting together this program, we were looking for a real dynamite moderator who really knew the subject area, might know some of the potential panelists, and who could really add something– some substance to the program.<p>Rebecca's one of the smartest ladies ..."

Some of these comments baffle me.<p>Look, it doesn't matter what someone said before or after they sexualized someone in a professional context. Here's why: human beings are smart. They know that things people say matter. Thus, if you are commenting on someone's appearance or sexiness in a professional context, <i>that must matter to you.</i><p>Why is that important? It serves to undermine the person it's said about. Rather than being judged on their work, or their connections, or what not - they are now being judged for their appearance. And that steals credibility they may have had in other, legitimate arenas.<p>It says, I like you because you're attractive, not because you deserve it.<p>("Oh, Nancy's not a good lawyer - everyone just thinks she's pretty." "Well Bob got that promotion because he's so good-looking. He didn't really deserve it." Etc.)<p>And yes, in some contexts, we expect to be more casual and colloquial. But if you're in a professional setting, unprofessional remarks do insidious harm to the subject.

I don't know the context here (full audio is not loading for me), but doesn't it seem reasonable that it was just his way of congratulating her for recently getting married? I could imagine a similar intro being used for a guy that was just married too.<p>EDIT: I got the full audio to work and the introduction is longer than the quote he pulled out. Judging from his tone and the earlier part of the introduction, I really don't think he was doing anything but trying to compliment/congratulate her (though admittedly he could have done a better job).

There's another side to this as well: it distracts from your message and makes you sound weird and creepy.<p>Don't introduce people as sexy unless you're trying to make a joke about being weird and creepy. In which case, make it a guy, and compliment the way their hair smells for extra weird and creepy.

I see this shit all the time, and most men don't even realize they're doing it. Lots of startups quickly converge to a culture that's little better than a frat house.<p>If you think this is much ado about nothing, consider this: the subtle sexist parts of your company's culture will turn off any qualified woman from working there.<p>And we all know how <i>EASY</i> it is to hire in Silicon Valley these days.<p>I'd also like to add, one of the most positive experiences in my startup life was working for Brian Sugar and Lisa Sugar at Sugar, Inc.. This was my first job at a proper startup and as a male I was in the minority.<p>I joined as #10 or so, and the first non-founding engineer. One third of the founding team were female. The second engineer we hired was Lydia Wagner.<p>From #10 to #30 or so I think I was one of only two or three male hires.<p>The stereotypical Silicon Valley startup is founded by N engineers, probably male, who graduated from college in the last 5 years.<p>Put those people in a tiny room for 10-14 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a year or two and it's kind of inevitable.<p>But it's also easy to stop if you're self-aware about it, and the founders make it a priority.<p>Also, guys (if I may be so bold), this thread is acting as an existence proof for the point the article is making.

This exists in more than just the startup world. I was in a meeting today where a technology leader said, "Let's have X take the meeting notes, she's a woman." This person also had her administrative account set to a pathologically trivializing username.<p>I think the term "microaggression" gets overused, but the story referenced in the article says that what's important about the person is her gender, attractiveness, and marital status. To the point that her "lucky" spouse deserves special recognition. What?!

Is this necessarily sexist? He's not showing any belief in being superior to women, nor is he discriminating against her in any way. In fact, he complimented her at length on her professional success.<p>At one point he described her as a sexy single woman. He even mentioned her husband and asked for him to stand up. While I would consider that to be a very odd and uncomfortable way to end his introduction, it doesn't seem sexist. If somebody went on at length about how great I am professionally, and then threw in a statement about me being a sexy single man, I'm pretty sure I'd just consider it as an added complement.<p>I understand there is real sexism in the industry. I just don't think this is it. It's just an odd comment from a person who may be odd/uncomfortable around women.

Here's the male version:<p>John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he was a handsome single man. And since that time, he’s become a handsome married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up. So we’ve got not only a very talented, but a happy moderator.<p>Would someone saying that get to the top of hacker news? I do agree that this is far from a good introduction thought.

What the hell?! Someone has really stretched the definition of sexism here or the alleged problem exists in some alternate universe only.<p>I took the time and listened the audio recording. What happened is:<p>- The guy spends minutes talking about how good and smart Ms Lovell is and how she suits the role perfectly<p>- And in the end makes the short remark about that a sexy single lady who is now a sexy married woman, obviously to celebrate the recent happy event.<p>- He even pointed out how lucky her new husband was instead of, say, drooling at her sexiness himself.<p>- Everybody laughed.<p>- Ms Lovell laughed, and made some witty comments before starting with the real business.<p>And <i>then some third party guy gets upset</i> because he thinks there's a problem somewhere. Excuse me but this reeks of steep hypersensitivism.<p>It might certainly be sexist to say somewhat that would expand to "she's so smart that we picked her for this role eventhough she's only a woman" or "we chose her and that is because she was just too sexy to pass". That would be somehow implying that women are lesser but at least they can look good.<p>But this was clearly not the case in this event. What happened was a compliment, both on her recent marriage and related to that, her good looks.<p>Emphasis on the word "good". It was a compliment: the man stated what he thought were positive facts about her, and especially not pointed to anything negative nor exhibited, say, disturbing personal interest in her.<p>The strange thing is that it's not only that as if women couldn't take compliments anymore—I think most of them can
—but, rather, it seems that some <i>men</i> can't take it anymore to observe women being complimented. This is just crazy.<p>We're all men and women and men do pay attention to good looking women and women do pay attention to good looking men (at least if only they let themselves). That is perfectly normal and there's generally nothing wrong in making a compliment about one's good looks. While there are subtle but complex rules about social interaction, flirting, including making comments about good looks or of even sexual nature, most of all that used to be the norm, and generally well received and lavishly given, without the slightest hint of sexist nature.

I'll be the first to admit that before I had my daughter, this type of stuff never really bothered me (shame on me). Now that I have a little girl, I'm much more sensitive to it and really, really don't want her to grow up in a world where she gets introduced to a professional audience as "sexy".

Argh. This continues to happen. Was in a boardroom meeting with a company recently with my female cofounder, and she was all but ignored by the CEO (others were fine). On the surface, nothing will come of it. In actual fact though, the behavior spoke volumes about what kind of environment they offer in terms of a deeper integration/commitment, and who knows what opportunities were lost for them (and, in theory, for us).

How about this: Cut the unprofessional crap!<p>The programming world is so used to breaking the norms, revolutionizing industries, and wearing T-shirts and sneakers to work that we forget, sometimes, that some aspects of "professionalism" actually do serve a purpose. There's a reason that senators don't call each other by name (hint: how vitriolic can you sound when yelling "I respectfully disagree with the senator from Kentucky"). Respect is a currency in the world of intellectual pursuits. At one time, we showed that respect in the way we dressed. At the very least, shouldn't we show that respect in the way we speak? You might be surprised how far a little respect can go.

"And if you see someone doing this, call them on it. I didn’t… that was my nervous laughter in the background of the recording."<p>"Here’s what the man introducing Rebecca chose to say"<p>So, who is this "man"?<p>Easy to say but hard to do depending on your relationship to the "someone".<p>Let's say the person doing this is of the stature of PG and you are looking to get into YC.<p>Is it safe to stand up to him?<p>Sure that might get you points for taking a stand, he might actually like that.<p>Or maybe not. It's double or nothing.<p>It's easy to take a stand when the person being sexist is of no significance to you. Much harder if you have something to loose.<p>This is why things like this happen many times. And important to keep in mind. Power.

Being sexist, racist, or anything else really distracts from the mission of the startup.<p>That being said we take the same approach that south park does. Everything is on the table or nothing is on the table. Everyone in my group constantly rags on each other for everything including some off color jokes. However we've been friends for years, and when we work with other people we cut that stuff out immediately. The comments he made were fairly demeaning, and I guess a strong lesson here is know your audience or if you can't figure that out then don't do it at all.<p>To clarify I judge a person based on their ability and how they treat others. It's really the only way to go about things.

I'm a girl in tech, and I think nothing in that introduction is offensive.<p>I feel that there are five points here that need addressing.<p>1. Women rarely become attractive by doing nothing. We have to work at it. You have to take care of yourself, go to the gym, eat right, choose appropriate clothing, and etc. I have never laid eyes on Rebecca Lovell, but if she's attractive then I think it is a safe assumption that she is <i>trying</i> to be attractive. If I were Rebecca, I would be pleased that my efforts had been noted and approved of.<p>2. If the fellow who introduced Rebecca had implied that her attractiveness was her <i>only</i> useful quality, I would be more sympathetic to Dan's complaint. But the introduction didn't do that. In fact, he led off by saying how smart Rebecca was, and then he went on to describe her as "perfect" (for the position) and "talented." At no point did he imply that Rebecca was chosen for her looks or that her looks were her claim to fame. On the contrary, his introduction seems genuinely kind, respectful, and affectionate.<p>3. Even if this introduction <i>had</i> been offensive -- if the introducer had said "Rebecca is hot and stupid and we will enjoy looking at her while she moderates" -- is it really that big a deal? Men insult each other all the time in similar contexts, and it's very rare that they get criticized for it as when women are insulted. If we women are worth a damn, surely our egos should be sturdy enough to handle this sort of thing like adults.<p>4. I have often heard men say "No wonder there aren't more women in tech; they get treated like sex objects!" It should be news to no one that men like sex -- least of all to women. People in all industries and with all interests are insulted all the time. Can it really be true that womens' interest in tech is so fragile and tenuous that vague insults and sexual innuendo are enough to discourage them from it entirely? I don't believe that, and I'd further venture to say that women who <i>do</i> say that are just making excuses because they're interested in something else. I got my CS degree from Georgia Tech, and in the College of Computing men outnumbered women 9 to 1. I was often the only girl in my classes, and sometimes I was exposed to immature male freshmen being immature male freshmen. This wasn't a trial for me; it wasn't difficult. I wasn't alienated. It sounds crazy to even <i>consider</i> that references to breasts or sex (gasp!) would make me leave my chosen field of study. Who cares if I know that someone wants to have sex with me?<p>5. Dan Shapiro is clearly trying to do right by women and be a good man, and I respect and appreciate that. But I think he is selling Rebecca (and all women) short by suggesting that that introduction should hurt her feelings.

A lot of the comments here compare this to saying a man is sexy and conclude "it sounds a little weird, it's out of place in a professional setting."<p>This completely misses the point that in our culture women are frequently (practically _always_) objectified sexually in some way. There's a gulf between what it means to call a man sexy and what it means to call a woman sexy.<p>I think this is what men so often completely miss. The male equivalent of this is not "John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he was a handsome single man. And since that time, he’s become a handsome married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up"<p>it's something closer to: John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he's a single man with just has a gigantic penis. And since that time, he’s become a married man with a gigantic penis, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse, who gets all that in bed, to stand up"<p>It's not 'out of place' it's appalling that something like this is acceptable _anywhere_.

It's staggering that in 2012 we still have to remind people about this.

I look at remarks like this as a result of not practicing in advance. As programmer types, we don't typically get up in front of people and make personable comments. If we are up in front of people, it's discussing something technical, which is something we are qualified to talk about. But introducing panel moderators -- when have you ever done that before? All you have to go on is cliches you've picked up from TV or movies, and you saying something that sounded funny when a comedian said it might not sound as funny. You don't know until you try. You don't know until you practice.<p>(Personally, I think the best way to navigate uncharted waters like this is to stick to the facts. "Here's our panelist, she has a PhD from Harvard and likes skiing." I'm not going to get any laughs or win any awards for that sentence, but I'm also not going to make anyone feel bad. And that's more important to me.

I guess part of the problem is how women are presented in the tech industry. Whenever you see women on a tech event they tend to be booth babes, or they have been send to the event to attract men.<p>I was at a career event last week. None of the women representing a company could give a clear story of what the company does from day to day. They where just there to be pretty.<p>If we want to stop sexism we have to stop this, but i don't think this will happen any time soon.

So someone explain this to me.. how is this "sexist"? That to me takes on an air of discrimination. I didn't see any undertones, nor would those (assumed by the author) undertones exist if the gender roles were reversed.<p>This "controversy" seems like a lot of bunkola, to me.

I would be very complimented if an introducer said these things about me, replacing 'woman' with 'man'. Maybe I'm sexist - I think (those who are upset) are a little too uptight. It feels like (they) would like to take sexuality out of the workplace entirely.

I apologize for this (my) post because it adds no real value to this topic. But I just have to say, as a male, I am disgusted when guys talk like this in a professional environment.<p>I do not know anything about the person who said it or the companies involved, but I associate this kind of talk to a particular type of person, which may or may not be an accurate portrayal of "guys who talk like this", and I guess it is this very archetypal man that rubs me the wrong way. Here I am no longer talking about the person who said this sexist comment, but the image of a guy in my own head: a yuppie, clean-cut, trendy, smooth-talker, that thinks (and certainly can be) cutting edge in the IT or business sector, that also thinks he's got it all figured out and knows exactly what each person (not just women) is worth. He's got us all "figured out", but is really just full of himself. I've met a couple, and again, I'm not saying this person is that type, but having gathered extremely little information on him, he reminded me of this "theoretical" person, and I just have no tolerance for these "slick" smooth-talking men.<p>If my post is inappropriate because you deem it to be an overreaction, please delete it or advise me to, and I will follow through. I just feel very strongly about this.<p>I can write a whole essay on how calling anybody "sexy" sends the wrong message. Good on him for going for the un-PC, hip talk, but it absolutely fuels the image of what our society deems to be a standard/pre-defined sense of beauty or a definitive definition of "success". And the problem is that many people point out what "sexy" is to the point that we start seeing a pattern and assume "Oh, this is what sexy is", or "Oh, this is what beauty is". It takes all types to make the world go 'round.<p>And just to add a point that is not contentious: Calling anybody sexy in a business environment is disrespectful, regardless of gender, or how in-tune/hip with the kids you may feel you are. I feel women in power tend to downplay it or act like they don't mind for the very reason that they may be blamed for falling into the "typical sensitive, overreacting" woman role. It's like they can't escape it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. A catch-22. So might as well make the best of it and put on a smile. (Or talk about it privately with your bestfriends.)<p>I'm new here, so if this rant is inappropriate, please let me know and I'll remove it or edit it, instead of getting a flood of down-votes.

Taking the focus away from intellectual and professional capacity with something else is just that, indirectly downplaying and trivializing the person.<p>The interesting thing is many guys probably wouldn't say something like this about a close female they knew themselves, be it their own wives, girlfriends, sisters.<p>Nor would we want anyone speaking like that about our wives, girlfriends, or sisters.<p>0.02

Typical men, all sexists ...<p>Shouldn't the title be "startup people" if we're "cut[ting] the sexist crap" - unless of course it's a documented fact that no female involved in a startup has ever made a sexist comment.

Regardless of the merits of this blog post, we seem to have to discuss this at least once a week on Hacker News. At this point I'd classify it as a "classic flamewar topic". Flagged.

Way too many conflicting messages in this American culture of ours. I can understand the frustration felt by those who feel that their qualities are not recognized because of one reason or another, but honestly, I don't think it was the speaker's INTENT to sexualize the woman. It is an important topic but poor guy!! Why not focus on more subtle messages like the fact that CNN or your local news hires women to be on camera that do not look like the average woman you may see on the street?

How to do introductions 101:<p>1. Say something about why the person is here. Speak to their credentials and establish credibility. 2. Know your audience. Let them know why the person being introduced is important to them. 3. It's okay to make a small personal comment. It establishes rapport.<p>If the entire intro is #3 you've screwed up. This intro was clearly out of line. My guess is that the moderator didn't even realize it which is twice as bad.

I think he chose a pretty bad example to lead in with. Yeah, the comment to Lovell lacked taste, but it was hardly the worst thing that could have been said.<p>That said, there was a good point here:<p><i>Think before you open your mouth.</i><p>Couldn't agree more. Far too many faux pas (including some that I've made) could be avoided just by thinking about what you're about to say before you say it.

Somebody was (reportedly) rude. This is only news when the person being rude is male and the person on the receiving end is female. THEN it's proof of how horrible men are.<p>Kind of like the reverse of: <a href="http://xkcd.com/385" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/385</a>

Terrible introduction. Gives insight into how that man's brain works around women, causing him to trip over his tongue and mention what he saw - "sexy" - vs. what qualifications she had for moderating.

low cut shirts, mini-skirts, hose, lipstick, eye-liner, perfume...<p>seems like being sexy matters a lot to women. you just better not acknowledge it out loud.

I agree, but I flagged for the headline.

I am not sure I understood this post correctly: is it the phrase "<i>a sexy married woman</i>" that is a crime against humanity?

Flagged; flamebait.

I'm disgusted at the amount of sexist crap everywhere and I'm horrified when I see it here on HN and am still surprised at its persistence on reddit (ie the trainwreck #1 post this morning). It's been a while but here on HN there was a series of posts and discussion about women's pay and negotiations that left a bad taste in my mouth from the dripping sense of entitlement and ignorance that resulted from posters arrogantly asserting that "women should just ask for more", revealing their ignorance of the complications of sexism in various tech industries.<p>Sadly this reaction is typical when confronting a majority about their taking advantage of minority groups. "It's just a joke". (Hint, this response has already been offered up more than once <i>in this thread</i>). It doesn't affect males and it's a male dominated industry, thus the issue has low visibility and personal impact to those who are causing the problem or have the influence to fix it. This all compounds to make this issue hard to solve unless people are willing to vocally confront these incidents <i>as they happen</i>, <i>when they happen</i>, and take responsibility for treating people with respect and equality.

If someone called me a sexy single man, I would be flattered.<p>I don't see a problem.

Really? Women do not start or get involved with tech companies because the male programmers make sexist jokes?! Get real. Women are just as competitive as men, and the reason they stay out of tech has not much to do with sexism. I am all for women and men being equal, but putting men on the burning stake for something like this seems unfair to me.