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Artists must be allowed to make bad work

240 点作者 open-source-ux大约 2 年前

30 条评论

epiccoleman将近 2 年前
I have a page for quotes in Notion. There are only a few, I try to save it for really good ones. But this quote from Ira Glass made the cut:<p>&quot;Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years you make stuff, it’s just not that good. It’s trying to be good, it has potential, but it’s not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase, they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn’t have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It’s gonna take awhile. It’s normal to take awhile. You’ve just gotta fight your way through.&quot;
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dsign将近 2 年前
This has been coming to my mind in the context of fiction writing.<p>Today, the writer&#x27;s gold standard is publication. In fact, many readers say they won&#x27;t read anything that hasn&#x27;t been &quot;published&quot; by a publisher.<p>But the incentive of a publisher is money and sales, which means they will search for things that sell in volume, or handicap the writer&#x27;s work so that &quot;it sells.&quot; And how the publisher guesses if something will sell? They will look for things that have sold in the past, they have no other way. And they will do it even if it crushes the bibliophile&#x27;s soul of everybody at the editorial, because they got bills to pay. And it results in...more of the same. It&#x27;s not art anymore, it&#x27;s commercial fulfillment, and it&#x27;s not enjoyed to the point of being remembered.<p>There is one good thing about fiction writing though, it&#x27;s called beta-reading. It&#x27;s a thing authors do, but it&#x27;s also a great opportunity for readers to contribute to a story, to make it more to their liking. If you ever are feeling hyper-critic of a piece of contemporary fiction, as an alternative to cancel-bombing the author because they produce &quot;bad work&quot; and have the daring of publishing it on their own, consider doing some beta-reading.<p>Remember, Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown was traditionally published and an amazing commercial success[^1].<p>[^1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=xX5IV9n223M">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=xX5IV9n223M</a>
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ilamont将近 2 年前
You really see this in the music world. Nobody comes fully formed ... you&#x27;re playing covers or recording practically unlistenable demos and experiments, &quot;getting your chops&quot; and getting feedback from your piano teacher or whoever happens to be in the club that night. It&#x27;s excruciating.<p>But over time, you get better. Practice pays off. Playing with other people of varying skill levels pays off. You stop doing covers and start making your own compositions. You learn to improvise.<p>And, you encounter catalysts. It could be a recording by someone else. It could be a musician who lets you do things on your own instrument that you never thought possible. It could be a club or even a clothing store that becomes the center of a local music &quot;scene.&quot;<p>No one remembers Jimmy Page&#x27;s skiffle band, John Paul Jones&#x27; 1965 studio sessions with a half-forgotten R&amp;B singer, or Robert Plant&#x27;s and John Bonham&#x27;s first band. But when those 4 came together for the first time in the summer of 1968, BOOM!
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jcarrano将近 2 年前
I thought this was already the case, considering most &quot;art&quot; is garbage anyways (well, 90% of everything, according to that rule).<p>I do not thinks artist are &quot;punished&quot; more for making bad works, as much as they are loosing that extra &quot;excess attention&quot; that our media-high society gives them. Of course, if you put regular human beings on a pedestal and make an Idol of them then any minor misstep will be unforgivable.
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alentred将近 2 年前
I truly think of science and engineering, software development included, as an artistic feat in part. And we can easily see how the opinion expressed in this interview easily applies to what we do. Yes, we all have periods where we should be allowed to do bad work, learn on it and eventually come out with better ideas. Yes, the &quot;public&quot; pressure and the focus on novelty is there (right now on HN front page: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=35955336" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=35955336</a>).<p>P.S. I have just realized that I have the &quot;Steal Like An Artist&quot; by Austin Kleon in my library. Proves the point of being an artist I guess :D
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js8将近 2 年前
That&#x27;s the free market pressure. The free market only cares about your present performance, not about your past. And it is by many believed to be a good thing, because it&#x27;s very meritocratic.<p>But it has downsides, too. People are human, not machines, and sometimes need to rest too. That&#x27;s why we shouldn&#x27;t leave everything up to the free market (not even the one that works in liberal theory and is perfectly meritocratic).<p>It was also one of the justifications behind copyright, to give artists more stability.
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Taylor_OD将近 2 年前
This has always been the case and always will be. Unfortently most people feel like they have to put everything online right away now. Most art is bad and doesnt need to go out into the world.<p>The most creative I&#x27;ve ever been was when I was writing new work every day. MOST, maybe as much as 95%, of what I was creating was just okay. 4% was something that could be developed into something good. 1% was actually good.<p>That meant in 100 days of writing 95 of those days I would feel like a failure if my measure of success was creating something good or useable. I had to shift my thinking so creating something was the measure of success and creating something good only came from creating a lot and seeing what actually stood out.<p>If I was putting all of that work online right away I&#x27;m positive the negative feedback, or entire lack of feedback, would have been discouraging and I would have stopped.
karaterobot将近 2 年前
It&#x27;s worth asking who counts as an artist for the purpose of this argument. Is an artist someone primarily concerned with creating art for art&#x27;s sake, and their value is in expanding the public consciousness and deepening the discourse? Or, are they an entertainer, primarily concerned with popularity and commercial success? Are these different roles judged by the same standards?<p>For instance, we could very well say that, if you are primarily making art as a product, you are like a vendor in a marketplace. And, as a vendor in a marketplace, we consumers don&#x27;t need to nurture you, or be patient with your failures. If you make a bad batch, we just move on to the next vendor selling a similar product.<p>The definitions of art and artists have changed a lot since 1969. We used to have this concept of selling out, and if you engaged in it, you weren&#x27;t a serious artist to a lot of people. We don&#x27;t really have that concept today, at least not in the same way. You also might not have been considered a serious artist if you worked in a popular medium: popular music, television, comic books, etc., all of which I think most people consider valid art forms today.<p>I&#x27;m not saying this was the <i>right</i> way to think about art. I&#x27;m saying that&#x27;s how it was. And while I don&#x27;t know a lot about David Sylvester, I see that he was a fine art critic and curator, so I am assuming he might have been talking about a particular kind of artist when he said this.
RcouF1uZ4gsC将近 2 年前
Actually this applies to humans in general.<p>One of my pet peeves is artists (and journalists) setting themselves apart as a “high priesthood” and claiming things for themselves specially which should apply to humans in general.<p>Yes, artists should be allowed to make bad work and go through bad times because humans must be allowed to make bad work and go through bad times.<p>Yes, creativity and freedom is important for artists because creativity and freedom is important for all humans.<p>Yes the government should not be spying on journalists, because it shouldn’t be spying on people in general.
LudwigNagasena将近 2 年前
&quot;Must be allowed to” sounds like a weasel word. It is not illegal to make bad work. I doubt any contract an artist signs usually has a clause against producing bad work either. That phrase may sound sophisticated and provocative but it means nothing, at least to me.
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ivan_gammel将近 2 年前
Social pressure is not higher now than in the other periods, when art could be called degenerate or heresy. Newspapers were influential and before them it was church and favoritism in the high society. Van Gogh, Mark Rothko and many others were not happy people who enjoyed a lot of support from the public. We do not know the names of artists from earlier periods who vanished because they were not understood. Suffering is the fuel of art. Take your broken heart and make it into art - that’s how it works. If the pressure of social media is painful, you cannot do anything with it, so either you create or find something else to do, as it has always been.
qup将近 2 年前
They funded vice with like a billion dollars, right? We&#x27;re not just allowing it, we&#x27;re actively encouraging it.
pfannkuchen将近 2 年前
Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing.<p>Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind blowing.<p>Photography has probably totally destroyed our relative reaction to visual art, like someone who eats way too much sugar trying a sweet apple.<p>But now we seem to be running on cultural fumes in this area. It’s as if people still bought hand cobbled shoes for millions of dollars and displayed them pretentiously.
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NickC25将近 2 年前
Of course they should. There are countless fantastic musicians, for example, who have albums that have both great tracks and filler tracks on them. Just because someone has demonstrated greatness (even consistently) doesn&#x27;t mean that every track that comes out of their studio is destined to top the charts or win some sort of award.<p>Even the best athletes have &quot;bad days at the office&quot; (just yesterday, the #1 tennis player in the world lost to a guy ranked #133). Why should artists of any given medium?
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iambateman将近 2 年前
One of the fundamental principles of art is that the artist is allowed to do whatever they want.<p>To the extent the artist is acting as a true artist, the public has no say in what they may or may not do. In that sense, their work is neither &quot;good&quot; nor &quot;bad.&quot;<p>But to the extent the artist is acting as a commercial entity – one who intends to sell a consumable product – the public has every say in the value and merit of a piece.<p>The artist may do whatever kind of work she wants. The company may not.
j7ake将近 2 年前
In science the analogy is : “yeah this person did good work five years ago, but what have they done recently?” as a way to reject people for jobs, grants, and promotions.
tyingq将近 2 年前
It&#x27;s difficult for me to reason this sort of thing. Success, or even just being able to scrape out a living from art seems like a lottery. That is, there&#x27;s not really any strong correlation between talent, effort and success. Plenty of starving, yet talented and&#x2F;or hard-working artists. And plenty of successful artists with less talent or effort than their starving peers. So in this case, pushing for an environment that allows for bad periods is really only trying to improve things for those that won that initial lottery.
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meristohm大约 2 年前
Scientists, too. Anyone, really; fail faster, people! Celebrate the process of trial and error.
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cat_plus_plus将近 2 年前
At least for photography, it&#x27;s important to not take yourself too seriously. You might see something amazing, and every single shot ends up out of focus, or overexposed or with garbage bag in the foreground ruining the mood. In some ways, dedicated cameras are intentionally glitchy to achieve artistic effects, so sometimes they glitch in ways you have not intended. I would imagine that in the same ways a violin is not intended to be as precise as a digital music player and oil paints are not intended to be as true to reality as a smartphone photo. The point is to keep going without overthinking and let good stuff come once in a while by serendipity, while you gain experience to gradually increase average quality. If I was a novelist with a writer block, I would try to come up with a parody of my own writing and see if some comic relief helps me relax. Sometimes I take trippy photos through a water bottle when I am bored and can&#x27;t think of anything else to do.
leetrout将近 2 年前
In case someone wants to skip a click:<p>&gt; Artists must be allowed to go through bad periods! They must be allowed to do bad work! They must be allowed to get in a mess! They must be allowed to have dud experiments! They must also be allowed to have periods where they repeat themselves in a rather aimless, fruitless way before they can pick up and go on. The kind of attention that they get now, the kind of atmosphere of excitement which attends today the creation of works of art, the way that everything is done too much in the public eye, it’s really too much. The pressures are of a kind which are anti-creative.<p>I think the same applies to developing technology. Certainly resonates with me and the phases I go through.
hathym将近 2 年前
who told you they are not? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vogue.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;the-120000-art-basel-banana-explained-maurizio-cattelan" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vogue.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;the-120000-art-basel-banana-ex...</a>
ChrisMarshallNY将近 2 年前
There’s even a museum for them: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;museumofbadart.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;museumofbadart.org&#x2F;</a>
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coldtea将近 2 年前
Between the collapse of the music industry, GPT&#x2F;Midjourney, big tech penny pinching ad-sponsored artists, copyright strikes for BS reasons, smaller attention spans, and a long recession (affecting disposable income), artists probably wont be allowed to make any work at all...
noam_compsci将近 2 年前
It depends on both the hit rate (success &#x2F; attempts), the churn rate (length of time a success is successful for) and finally the output rate (length of time it takes do one attempt).
devmor将近 2 年前
Everyone needs to be able to fail sometimes. You don&#x27;t grow and learn from nothing but successes.<p>Failure is an essential part of life and learning.
paultopia将近 2 年前
How could we stop them?
markusstrasser将近 2 年前
he&#x27;s been following his own advice religiously for years
amelius将近 2 年前
Yes, even Leonardo da Vinci made some very bad stuff.
paulpauper将近 2 年前
Fortunately for me this is not a problem , my problem is making good work.
nikanj将近 2 年前
But must they be paid for bad work?
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