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Microtiming in Metallica's “Master of Puppets” (2014)

324 点作者 activitypea将近 2 年前

41 条评论

sickcodebruh将近 2 年前
I love things like this. It’s especially funny knowing about Lars reputation as a drummer. Things like this are found throughout the early Metallica tab&#x2F;notation books. I have a good friend who recently did a set of And Justice for All songs who encountered it and told me at the time. “That’s definitely not what they actually played,” all over the album.<p>This sort of thing happens all the time. A band gets used to the timing and they do it because it sounds cool and feels right, time signature and tempo be damned.<p>I drum in a death metal band. We play live without a metronome but we record with one. Last week, we were going through a song and programming the click track. It’s a process of playing a riff, figuring out the comfortable tempo and time signature, setting it in Reaper, then playing along to it until there’s a change and doing it again. We hit this one transition that has these odd pauses. It’s very Suffocation, for any death metal fans out there. We always hold out one of them in a subtle way and discovered that we couldn’t find a way to program the section! The timing we were used to, especially me as the drummer, didn’t sync up with the a tempo that made sense, it wasn’t a countable number of beats. But we also did it evenly as a band for the past year, every time we played it, all together.<p>We wound up just deciding that we should play it to the click, speed up the pauses just a bit. It takes away a little personality but keeps the song tight.
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ehutch79将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ve seen a bunch of comments about how the reality is that it&#x27;s not some genius microtiming, it&#x27;s that Lars just wasn&#x27;t that tight of a drummer.<p>In music, the reality is that; if it sounds good, it is good.<p>I&#x27;ve seen some youtube videos trying to analyze grunge or punk music, and you can tell they&#x27;re struggling. There&#x27;s such a reach for &#x27;i think this supposed to be an inverted diminished c minor suspended 7 missing the 4th and...&#x27;, and if you&#x27;ve ever actually been in a punk band, or seen these kids play, you know they just tried a bunch of different notes until they found what sounded good.<p>I cant imagine how that pisses off a lot of people with very expensive music degrees.
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Applejinx将近 2 年前
Absolutely. I&#x27;m listening to it right now and that section always stood out to me as a specific rhythm thing they did. It&#x27;s a GREAT example of Metallica shoving the beat around anyway they wanted, with Lars driving it (doesn&#x27;t matter what the guitars want to do, if Lars doesn&#x27;t reinforce it they won&#x27;t be able to do that)<p>I can tell you an interesting counterexample: there&#x27;s another song where if you don&#x27;t get the microtiming you&#x27;re not even close to the riff. &quot;Mmm-bop&quot; by Hanson.<p>In that one, the main drive of the song is eighths and sixteenths, but accents in the MAIN chorus hook are actually sixteenth triplets. If you overlay an insanely fast rhythm onto the song that&#x27;s doing a frantic &#x27;onetwothreeonetwothree!&#x27; it lines up perfectly with bits of the &#x27;bop-doowop&#x27; vocal. This same trick also exists in the biggest Ace of Base hits, but instead of the vocal riff, it&#x27;s the kick drum happening on triplets.<p>Hanson mentioned in interviews how people couldn&#x27;t cover &#x27;Mmmbop&#x27; properly, because they&#x27;d simplify the timing. If you covered Master of Puppets, you&#x27;d have to get the timing right as well :) this implies that Hanson, if they wanted, could do Master Of Puppets properly because they can hear timing that fast and would recognize what it was…
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civilized将近 2 年前
Very cool. It&#x27;s about the measure, repeated several times in each verse, that sounds like it not only skips a beat, but lurches awkwardly (and excitingly).<p>Punchline:<p>&gt; What makes this rhythmic idiosyncracy different from what has been studied by most music theorists is that this slightly attenuated beat is performed by the whole ensemble in unison, and it’s not a delay that is “made up for” right afterwards. In other words, it’s not a local deviation from the beat that maintains the pulse over a longer span of music, but a permanent shift of where the beat occurs.<p>Satisfying explanation for one of the more unsettling measures of rhythm in any genre of music.<p>Personally, I never thought too hard about this measure when listening but it definitely stuck out to me. It felt like some kind of slightly rushed triplet rhythm, reminiscent of that Romantic tendency to throw triplets into a melody (did anyone else play piano and struggle to master the timing of these triplets?). This feel seems confirmed by the signature proposed in a sibling comment, 21&#x2F;32, which has the decimal value 21&#x2F;32 = 0.65625 when interpreted as a fraction. Very close to two thirds, just a tiny bit sped up.<p>Rhythm is not meant to be perfect in performance, so my intuition is that &quot;slightly sped up two thirds&quot; was closer to their intention than 21&#x2F;32.
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visualphoenix将近 2 年前
While I’m unsure if this was true of Master of Puppets, I recall hearing an anecdote about And Justice For All…<p>When the engineers first rewound the master tapes for Justice they thought the tape was being shredded because the tape machine was making a very strange noise. When they stopped to take a look, they saw thousands and thousands of tiny tape edits. Apparently that was key to how Flemming Rasmussen got the drums so locked in. Hand editing and splicing every beat.<p>The sound the engineers heard that they thought was the tape shredding was the sound of all of those hand edits flying over the tape head.
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AndrewKemendo将近 2 年前
So the hypothesis about this from the traditional metalheads I know including myself, at least since the late 90s has been: Lars isn’t a consistent drummer and Metallica aren’t particularly “tight” of a band.<p>This isn’t really seen as bad though, more like ”despite the fact that they aren’t as tight as say… Devin Townsend, Chuck Schuldiner, Neal Pert etc…they have the heaviest music“<p>So while this theory is great, it doesn’t disprove the folk theory that Lars sucks.
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pontus将近 2 年前
Here&#x27;s a good video on this topic from a few years ago where they illustrate the difference between a pure 5&#x2F;8 and what&#x27;s actually on the album.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dRBmavn6Wk0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dRBmavn6Wk0</a>
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thatwasunusual将近 2 年前
I didn&#x27;t know this was a big revelation; we learned about this in music school (I used to be a semi-professional drummer back in the days) around 1992&#x2F;93-ish.<p>A lot of bands do this kind of &quot;crazy stuff&quot;, though, not just Metallica, and it was almost a signature thing &quot;back in the days.&quot;<p>One of my other favorites in newer times is Iron Maiden&#x27;s quite dramatic &quot;rhythm reversal&quot; or &quot;step-back&quot; in Sign of the Cross.[0]<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=FBanU-AHMqg&amp;t=347s">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=FBanU-AHMqg&amp;t=347s</a>
kortex将近 2 年前
Reminds me of Aksak rhythms in Middle Eastern &#x2F; Mediterranean traditions. If you try to translate it to Western schemas, it is roughly 9&#x2F;8. But that&#x27;s not really correct, as that would imply 9 evenly spaced notes, with an emphasis on every 3 notes, or maybe a 4+5, or something like that. It&#x27;s closer if you break it down like 2+2+2+3 (baka baka baka bakata), but that&#x27;s <i>also</i> not quite right if you actually feel the flow. It&#x27;s also not exactly the same duration eights. It really feels like a free flowing pulse (at whatever the 4&#x2F;4 tempo would be), with a hiccup, almost like 4.333&#x2F;4.<p>Master of Puppets has the same sort of feel going on. Chugging on 4&#x2F;4, and then a lurchy measure of truncated 3&#x2F;4 (like 2.5&#x2F;4 and change). It doesn&#x27;t feel &quot;5&#x2F;8-y&quot; to me at all. It&#x27;s fundamentally not on the meter - it&#x27;s a groove. Much like non-Western tone systems don&#x27;t map squarely onto 12 equal tones (or even 24). It&#x27;s just a different schema.<p>I don&#x27;t know if it was a conscious or subconscious choice, or if it just &quot;sounds sick, man&quot;, but I feel like the solid 4&#x2F;4 pulse that gets you headbanging, and then a measure which just gets <i>yanked</i> out from under, really invokes the feeling of someone who doesn&#x27;t have control, who is having their strings pulled.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Aksak" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Aksak</a>
matsemann将近 2 年前
Reminds me of a postdoc back at uni (Axel Tidemann) who was working on an AI-drummer. I&#x27;m not a musician, but he explained to me it was easy to make a drum-program play a beat perfectly. But it wouldn&#x27;t sound good. It would have no feel, no personality, no &quot;signature style&quot;. Making it play imperfectly, but in a believable way, was the challenge. (I think it even simulated the way a drummer moves, aka not just using a pre-recorded sample of someone hitting a drum)<p>Same here, if you were to play the notes based on the scores, it wouldn&#x27;t feel like the Metallica song, even though you played it &quot;correct&quot;.
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mfontani将近 2 年前
According to a video I watched about this -- <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=dRBmavn6Wk0">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=dRBmavn6Wk0</a> -- it&#x27;s apparently 21&#x2F;32, which is ... definitely odd.<p>I appreciate it might &quot;just&quot; be a matter of Metallica &quot;playing it by feel&quot; rather than having sat down and composed it on a scoreboard first.<p>If one composes things &quot;by feel&quot; it becomes then pretty difficult to transcribe them precisely.
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gooseyard将近 2 年前
a big part of my jazz education was transcribing solos and then comparing them to other students transcriptions of the same piece with an instructor. it&#x27;s an interesting process because there is almost always variation in the way players notate sections when the time or the harmony gets tricky.<p>my observation is that transcriptions of recorded music are a lot like text that tries to convey the sound of the spoken word, for example when an author intentionally spells (misspells) words phonetically to capture a speaker&#x27;s accent or manner of speaking. It&#x27;s an approximation that tries to split the difference between accuracy and scrutability; you want to try to capture the essence of the sound but if nobody can make sense of the words on the page then it doesn&#x27;t work. So in the case of Master of Puppets, you have a sound on the record which doesn&#x27;t really correspond to anything, Metallica weren&#x27;t writing scores, and so if you create a transcription you have to use context and your judgement with the notation. But really the main goal is not to produce notation which is scrupulous in its accuracy but rather to have something that won&#x27;t be a pain in the ass for sight readers, and if you&#x27;ve ever worked with something like The Real Book, its very subjective and it takes a lot of experience to know what makes some notation better than others.
gjulianm将近 2 年前
I think that another example of Metallica doing &quot;whatever&quot; with the timing is just in the previous song in the album, Battery. If you try to follow the beat, it mostly follows a 4&#x2F;4 but sometimes they just cut it short. I feel it&#x27;s more accentuated in Battery, because it&#x27;s a little bit more random and contributes to the rushed feeling of the song.
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eigenvalue将近 2 年前
If you like this, you might be interested in hearing &quot;micro articulations&quot; in baroque harpsichord music. The most talented harpsichordists, like Scott Ross (RIP), use incredibly minute pauses and lags to add expression to the music, which is otherwise hard to do with a harpsichord, since it does not allow for dynamics like a piano-- the string on the harpsichord either gets plucked or it doesn&#x27;t, whereas the piano hammer can hit with varying intensity based on how hard the key is pressed. A good example:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=vkQp_QIzd7w">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=vkQp_QIzd7w</a><p>and playing my favorite, Scarlatti:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=sQm8I8EXZf8">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=sQm8I8EXZf8</a><p>If you did a similar analysis using Audacity as in the article, I&#x27;m sure you could find some interesting patterns. Would be nifty to have a deep neural net learn how to mimic this based on a &quot;straight&quot; midi file that doesn&#x27;t use micro-articulations.
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ben7799将近 2 年前
Maybe not so weird for 2014 but if you wrote this article today it&#x27;s super weird to try and analyze it in audacity with fractions of a second.<p>Today you&#x27;d throw it up in a DAW and see Lars just can&#x27;t stick to the groove (everybody knows this).<p>Metallica like a lot of bands was just self taught and figured out a lot of things intuitively. In the end music theory takes a back seat to &quot;it sounds cool&quot; when you&#x27;re talking rock &amp; metal.<p>Metallica does a bunch of stuff like stick a big portion of a song on one chord and not even bother changing then play some notes that don&#x27;t make sense with that chord&#x2F;scale and it&#x27;s all &quot;whatever&quot; cause it sounds cool. Or typical stuff like go to a chord that doesn&#x27;t necessarily make sense but it doesn&#x27;t really matter since they&#x27;re just playing root-5th chords and it doesn&#x27;t sound off the way it would with more fully voiced chords.
zokier将近 2 年前
Its kinda embarrassing, but I have no idea how all this rythm stuff works in music. I mean I get the basics of the notation, but I don&#x27;t understand the idea of dividing music into small chunks. That is to say that to me you could do away with the time signature numerology and bar lines in sheet music and it&#x27;d be all the same. And indeed you can make music like that, notably Satie composed music in &quot;free time&quot;[1].<p>These days I realize that my experience is atypical and many (most?) have some sort of intuitive feel for this thing, it&#x27;s not just me being dumb for not understanding fancy music theory but that my experience&#x2F;perception of music is different.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Free_time_(music)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Free_time_(music)</a>
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standardly将近 2 年前
I see some music&#x2F;drummer nerds in here so I have a recommendation. Check out the drumming on Mound by Phish. Any live version (obviously). They get the audience to clap in 4&#x2F;4 and then introduce a different time signature while the claps continue, it&#x27;s hilarious seeing people try to stay on the 4&#x2F;4. Maybe you&#x27;d have to hear it. Also, the jam on Split Open and Melt is essentially in 33&#x2F;32 (it&#x27;s 3 bars of 8&#x2F;8 and 1 bar of 9&#x2F;8, but the snare never deviates from 4&#x2F;4 time so that its relative placement changes every 4 bars).<p>I&#x27;ve shown these to drummers and they geek out on it. Sorry for going off topic but there is a recent Metallica video where they are talking about Phish&#x27;s 13-night run at MSG, so this reminded me of that.
RajT88将近 2 年前
This comment thread is filled with all the things I love about Metallica posts:<p>- People discussing their love for the music<p>- Geeking out about Metallica&#x27;s songwriting, and playing in general<p>- Trashing Lars
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vondur将近 2 年前
No way the guys in Metallica ever thought about doing a measure in 5&#x2F;8 time, it&#x27;s all by feel. Side note, Master of Puppets is one of the best metal albums of all time, and I was fortunate enough to see them on this tour with Cliff Burton before he passed.
crtified将近 2 年前
Related, a lot of modern&#x2F;rock guitar players learned these songs not by sheet music, but by what is colloquially known as tablature (or &#x27;tabs&#x27;) - a pared-back, fingering-based system of written musical notation which often omits timing information entirely.<p>It&#x27;s like learning a complex dance as a set of bland, unguided position changes, and having to rely upon observation of the actual performance in order to replicate the rhythm, timing and other fine detail.<p>The early years&#x2F;decades of the internet saw a particular boom in this style of self-learning. A state-of-affairs which means that a sizeable portion of self-taught musicians - certainly guitar and bass players - from the 90&#x27;s and 00&#x27;s, would navigate these, shall we call them &#x27;rebel phrases&#x27;, with a certain advantage born of unconventional learning approach. That is to say, a significant amount of playing-what-you-hear was de rigeur with the tablature-based style of learning. They never learned the traditional notation conventions in the first place, and thus had no need to break from them, in order to replicate these weird parts.<p>All that said, experienced players have long known that &quot;official&quot; music notation publications in this style of music (rock&#x2F;metal) almost always require imbibing with a few grains of salt. To paraphase Dimebag Darrell, a renowned musician in this area: the extra magic, the X factor, it comes from the fine detail, the slurs and variations, the things that are by nature more difficult to define and achieve.
tibbon将近 2 年前
I think rhythmic quirks like this are interesting. Sadly, most music today is over-edited to a click for machine-like perfection. Producers and engineers now are quick to snap anything that&#x27;s &quot;near&quot; a 4&#x2F;4 timing to a grid and cut off any extra bits. There&#x27;s artists that deviate from this, but even great drummers like Jimmy Chamberlin are now being smashed onto a grid for the sake of tightness and expediency.
bheadmaster将近 2 年前
Awesome!<p>This was one of the first metal songs I&#x27;ve ever learned on guitar, and learning from Guitar Pro, I&#x27;ve never questioned the timing - but listening carefully now, the 5&#x2F;8 bar seems to actually fit in 3&#x2F;8. It&#x27;s like they had the metronome on when playing (or just Lars being a bozo), then tried to fit the riff into the time.<p>Whatever it is, the real recording definitely sounds better than the surgically-precise Guitar Pro playback.
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sklivvz1971将近 2 年前
It&#x27;s what the &quot;groove&quot; of a riff is made of -- together with the micro changes in palm muting, the way the pick is held and used... these make up the Metallica sound the way it is.<p>More in general, it&#x27;s absolutely wrong to think that modern music, especially rock, is adequately represented on a score or tablature, there&#x27;s so much missing information on timing, volume, color...
danparsonson将近 2 年前
See also the theme tune to the first Terminator film, which has a really strange signature, and the theme tune to the Transformers cartoon from the 80s, which has a weird break in the middle of it: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;4Lk1d1PbHYY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;4Lk1d1PbHYY</a>
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e40将近 2 年前
Not the same song, but I really, really love this and it is Metallica:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Zd_UcjMusUA">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Zd_UcjMusUA</a><p>Larnell Lewis Hears &quot;Enter Sandman&quot; For The First Time (and plays the drum part)
wallstprog将近 2 年前
King Crimson has several songs where different players are playing different time signatures -- check out <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;GDFHtlbhqzA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;GDFHtlbhqzA</a>
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ThinkBeat将近 2 年前
I am pretty sure the guys were not sitting down and doing all this theory when making the song.<p>They found something that kicked ass and worked and went with it. Or they just sort of lucked out with errors that worked well.
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jredwards将近 2 年前
I think the comments are the most revealing. It&#x27;s not that it&#x27;s in a 5&#x2F;8 with some odd microtiming, but that it&#x27;s some kind of additive rhythm: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Additive_rhythm_and_divisive_rhythm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Additive_rhythm_and_divisive_r...</a><p>This reminds me of the famous Dave Brubeck Quartet song Blue Rondo a la Turk, which has a 2+2+3 rhythm, and I always remember the rhythm by remembering, &quot;Taco taco taco burrito.&quot;
Scandiravian将近 2 年前
An added point about this (and other similar weird) timing is that they have essentially gone extinct at this point<p>The use of click tracks have become so prevalent that the ability to do something that does not conform with the western &quot;way&quot; of making music is severely hampered<p>Personally this saddens me, though I&#x27;m not blind to how much the barrier of entry has been lowered for creating music
udev将近 2 年前
In my opinion Metallica&#x27;s Eye of the Beholder produces an even more powerful effect with unusual timing.<p>See the first minute of the song: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pEBp9ulELLA">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pEBp9ulELLA</a><p>If you have good speakers, the effect can almost feel like the source of the sound is rotating around you.
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pkulak将近 2 年前
I love it. This is the kind of thing we lose by moving to electronic-only music. Not ragging on electronic, but sometimes you just need a bunch of human beings getting together and doing what sounds awesome to them, even if it becomes nearly impossible to transcribe later (I guess, in this case, that measure would be 21&#x2F;32, which... no thank you).
oriolid将近 2 年前
It would be interesting to know where the transcription with 5&#x2F;8 originally came from. If you listen to the record, it&#x27;s not clear what it is and if it was ever supposed to have a nice written form, but it certainly doesn&#x27;t fit in with the sequence of even length 8th notes.
code_duck将近 2 年前
I would just like to recognize Wolf Marshall. We thought he was some sort of joke in middle school, but in retrospect, the guy taught us so much about guitar by being the transcriber for so many metal albums. I would think he must have a very interesting life story.
dwringer将近 2 年前
Looking at those time durations it is tempting to interpret this as switching to where the sixteenth note triplet becomes the new beat for a bar, which has 16 beats in it. Thus the downbeat gets shifted 2&#x2F;3 of a beat when returning to the original meter.
Nbadal将近 2 年前
This is just an example of poor transcription. The &quot;odd&quot; bar is 11&#x2F;16, with a rhythm of: 8th-8th-8th-16th-8th-8th where the 16th note is a rest
mynegation将近 2 年前
(1) Should have (2014) in the title. (2) Youtube video mentioned in few comments actually refers to the blog entry posted.
TaupeRanger将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m afraid the truth is more boring: it&#x27;s just a slightly misplayed 3&#x2F;4 bar. It occurs during the guitar solo section and is actually very clearly 3&#x2F;4 there. During the verses they just play it a little faster, probably because they weren&#x27;t actually fully aware that they were turning it into a 3&#x2F;4 bar, they just found a riff they liked and played it slightly faster because it sounded cool. That&#x27;s really it.
smitty1e将近 2 年前
This is the sort of thing that one doubts a *GPT system will ever produce creatively.<p>Advantage, humans.
mkjonesuk将近 2 年前
“If you don&#x27;t have ability, you wind up playing in a rock band.”<p>- Buddy Rich
De_Delph将近 2 年前
So it turns out Ulrich is not a terrible drummer at all!
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pseudosaid将近 2 年前
the click track is where music goes to die.