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Why I Left Rust

861 点作者 SmileyKeith将近 2 年前

93 条评论

junon将近 2 年前
Wait. Let me get this straight.<p>Someone is an expert in this field.<p>They&#x27;re asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote.<p>They&#x27;ve also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk <i>was</i> about this, but it&#x27;s also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust team&#x27;s viewpoints or support)<p>Rust members were &quot;uncomfortable&quot; with this purely technical viewpoint - not their behavior, personal beliefs, or even their demographic?<p>And then they pushed them out of the conference behind leadership&#x27;s back?<p>Did I miss something? This is indeed really childish behavior.<p>EDIT: oh. It&#x27;s not even reflection, it&#x27;s compile time reflection. As in, it&#x27;s not the next Java but instead something that might actually be very useful for the language if done correctly.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023</a><p>&gt; The sudden reversal smacks of shadowy decisions that are non-transparent to normal contributors like myself. It is a brutal introduction to the way the Rust Project actually does business that is not covered by its publicly-available Procedures and Practices and absolutely not at all mentioned in its Code of Conduct.<p>Agreed. The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester. This is incredibly stupid behavior coming from what is being regarded as the next C++.<p>Come on, Rust committee. Let&#x27;s grow up here, shall we?
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chillbill将近 2 年前
I haven&#x27;t seen anyone bring this up, so I will.<p>I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there&#x27;s nothing the could be related to that. JeanHeyd is a technical expert and not a token, I feel like introducing the issue of being &quot;a person of color&quot; (as if white is not a color, but whatever) is strange IMO and also needs to be called out. I respect and enjoy JT&#x27;s work and learned a lot from them, but this is also something that should not be just mentioned casually. If JeanHeyd was invited or their talk demoted because of the color of their skin then there&#x27;s totally different conversation to be had (and a totally different kind of accountability).<p>This behavior is disrespectful _regardless_ of the skin color of the expert! It doesn&#x27;t change it one bit.<p>Just because they&#x27;re not white shouldn&#x27;t afford them any special treatment, and I say that as a non-white person. Merit is what counts, treating experts with affordance to their biology is patronizing at the very least.<p>My two cents.<p>1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023</a>
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neonsunset将近 2 年前
I love Rust but the ideological posturing and swathes of people who in their hearts are grifters is truly disappointing.<p>Framing a technical presentation you disagree with as &quot;making you uncomfortable&quot; in highly manipulative fashion definitely deserves to be called out in public.
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orangetuba将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ve attended a few Rust conferences and events, and they have all been unusually politicized. There has been a very strong emphasis on how inclusive the community is, which raises some red flags. It is akin to someone repeatedly expressing how smart or funny they are... it makes you wonder why. I was waiting for something like this to happen.
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arp242将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ve been to plenty of conferences over the years, and I never really knew who was a &quot;keynote speaker&quot; or &quot;only&quot; a &quot;speaker&quot;. Does anyone pay attention to this?<p>You give a talk. People show up. They clap at the end. Does it really matter what some title on some conference website is? The communication was perhaps a bit more confusing and hectic than it should have been, but does that really matter? Is that really a big deal?<p>I don&#x27;t even understand why anyone would overly care about this in the first place, and now it&#x27;s also an example of systemic bias against black people, &quot;cruel&quot;, and &quot;heartless&quot;?<p>If the talk had been outright cancelled: sure, what would have been a right dick move. But from what I can see all that happened is that the &quot;status&quot; (that I don&#x27;t think many pay attention to) got &quot;downgraded&quot; and (maybe) moved to a different timeslot. I&#x27;m just confused why this would spark such strong reactions.
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pie_flavor将近 2 年前
This is certainly strangely phrased. The version I got from another member was that the content of the talk was to be about a proposed feature that may not actually end up in Rust (in my view it <i>likely</i> would not), and having that be the keynote talk would imply to a lot of people that it <i>would</i> end up in Rust and put the language in an uncomfortable position where something other than the feature&#x27;s merit would be pushing for its inclusion. Moving the talk away from being a centerpiece, in such a case, <i>makes sense</i>, and I have no idea whether this counts as poorly handled or not but saying it <i>shouldn&#x27;t have happened at all</i> seems a bit naïve to me.
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Oddskar将近 2 年前
How petty are you as a person if you disregard your peers and screw someone over just because you&#x27;re &quot;uncomfortable&quot; with a technical article?<p>Can we just stop with this intolerance of differing opinions? It&#x27;s OK to disagree with someone. We don&#x27;t need to all share the same opinions. Why the fuck would you have a conference if not to inject some healthy discourse in your community?
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bob1029将近 2 年前
All of this drama &#x2F; culture war or whatever you want to call it is a big part of what turned me off to Rust in the first place.<p>I come from .NET background and am open to the idea of a realistic C&#x2F;C++ replacement. My experience with .NET and its &quot;community&quot; has left me with a really comfortable feeling with regard to my ability to do business, just &quot;get shit done&quot;, etc. To be clear, there isn&#x27;t really a community. I think that&#x27;s why you don&#x27;t hear a whole lot of drama come out of it. It&#x27;s more of a LARP where we pretend we have some kind of say and sometimes Microsoft&#x27;s leadership agrees and it looks like we participated openly. Most on HN hate this, but when you are trying to build a stable B2B product and signing 5+ year contracts, it&#x27;s a goddamn paradise to not have concerns about what angry corners of social media might be up in arms about today.
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FrustratedMonky将近 2 年前
Is it just me, or is this a lot of melodrama for a language. I love arguing over technical details, this seems more like &quot;house wives of rust&quot;.
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Roark66将近 2 年前
I was with you until this part: &gt;It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation.<p>Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary &quot;diversity enforcement policy&quot; horribly racist?<p>No organisation should be &quot;called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation unless that organisation is in fact discriminatory. No one should be discouraged, relegated, skipped for mentoring or removed from a membership or a leadership role in an organisation because that person is the wrong race. Regardless of the reason why you feel that race is wrong. Calling out a group &quot;for lack of Black representation&quot; is basically telling every single non-Black member of that group they are less valuable because of the color of their skin.<p>People are not exchangeable units whose defining feature is the color of their skin. How can intelligent people not see this kind of thinking leads to the worst of social divisions?<p>Personally, I was with the author until that quote. If I was a member of that organisation I too would not be OK being represented by a person that makes such horribly offensive personal opinions known regardless of their technical expertise.
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ummonk将近 2 年前
For more context, post from the previously invited keynote speaker about what happened: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thephd.dev&#x2F;i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023</a>
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bruce343434将近 2 年前
As a non-american I must say I don&#x27;t understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?
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jenadine将近 2 年前
I once got a talk demoted from a normal talk to a lightning talk at some unrelated conference to make it work with the schedule. That was indeed not nice. But also not &quot;Cruelty&quot;. I just acted professionaly and accepted the change.
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Twirrim将近 2 年前
Thanks for sharing. Lots to chew over.<p>This bit stood out to me as the main thing that&#x27;s probably at least rationally explainable:<p>&gt; Why did RustConf leadership go along with this decision and not protect the speaker? Why wasn&#x27;t Rust leadership notified of the time period in which to change the decision?<p>which feeds from:<p>&gt; A person in Rust leadership then, without taking a vote from the interim leadership group (remember, JeanHeyd was voted on and selected by Rust leadership), reached directly to RustConf leadership and asked to change the invitation.<p>I can easily picture the RustConf leadership believing that the person from Rust leadership was either operating with full knowledge of the leadership, or would be communicating with them.
meindnoch将近 2 年前
Rust could be a nice language if it wasn&#x27;t for its insufferable &quot;community&quot;.
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cashsterling将近 2 年前
This behavior is the Rust leadership team is completely juvenile. Y&#x27;all need to grow up.<p>Disagreement in technical development is highly valuable... alternative points of view should be prized and inspected, not ostracized. Quashing alternate views and opinions is a sign of a small intellect and&#x2F;or a narcissistic personality disorder.<p>For the good of the Rust community, there needs to be some transparency on who exactly did what and those people who deviated from Rust leadership rules need to apologize. It will probably be very uncomfortable for those individuals, but too bad... get over yourselves... you screwed up... you should try to make it right.<p>There is probably no salvaging this current situation, but a description of what happened, mistakes made, and an authentic apology would go a long way. If folks can&#x27;t own their mistakes, they need to evaluate their character and consider stepping aside... although, if folks don&#x27;t understand what they did was wrong, they are probably incapable of real introspection (see comment above about narcissistic personality disorder).<p>To those Rust leaders who felt uncomfortable with Keynote speaker&#x27;s probable topics of address... and decided it was okay to let your discomfort lead to this disgraceful outcome... shame on you. You need to take a good look in the mirror and learn some scientific history (remember, it&#x27;s computer SCIENCE): scientist who use politics to quash alternate theories and views almost always acted from narcissism and almost always harmed scientific progress. Your actions are probably harming Rust.
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mberning将近 2 年前
Is there anything more pathetic than the internecine fighting of a bunch of nerds? The level of emotional maturity and “life experience” on display is of a 15 year old level, at best. The fact that this is still going for many days after the fact proves my point. The histrionics over a very minor slight is over the top. Just quit it.
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Blackstrat将近 2 年前
The world has become a sad and pathetic place. If you&#x27;re &quot;uncomfortable&quot;, whatever that means, don&#x27;t watch, whether we&#x27;re talking about a speech, a TV program, etc. Don&#x27;t try to ruin it for everyone else. You&#x27;re just not that important. Life is filled with discomfort. You can&#x27;t cancel them all. And as you get older, the discomforts keep coming. That&#x27;s the real world. And when you retire and the doctors tell you that you have cancer or heart disease, that too will be uncomfortable. And guess what, you don&#x27;t get to cancel that, because life really doesn&#x27;t care if you&#x27;re uncomfortable. Grow up world.
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locusofself将近 2 年前
What&#x27;s up with all the petty drama in the Rust community.. is it uniquely problematic?
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ojosilva将近 2 年前
BDFL or atomic leadership-led groups are more streamlined and decisions tend to be less questioned, dissidents are erased out and egos crushed. It&#x27;s easier because all the gravitas, and all the blame, is pinned to a monolith. &quot;When he&#x2F;she&#x2F;it woke, the dinosaur was still there&quot; would say Guatemalan writer Monterroso.<p>Participative leadership, otoh, is a pain. Every topic is a tug-of-war. Every decision has a significant party that disagrees and is unhappy with the outcome. Every ego flourishes. Even the serene will feel poised and entitled to raise endless issues. There&#x27;s a general lack of perspective and very few people celebrating what has been accomplished. All milestones are muddied by buts and ifs and people feel like shit.<p>Yet in every disagreement lies opportunity. Multiplying successes is the heart and soul of teamwork. That&#x27;s why participative groups are better because worse is better. I hope the Rust team doesn&#x27;t lose perspective and keep, as before, working hard to drive such a great language, toolchain and open community forward.
pdimitar将近 2 年前
I&#x27;ll obviously not stop using Rust over this -- and I think 99.99% of the people using Rust for work will not stop using it either -- but this looks like a case where the underlying true issue (sidestepping a democratic process) was very quickly forgotten and people started arguing over the expressions of the problem using dramatic and exaggerated language, which just makes things worse because it makes other people jumpy. And it spiraled out of control extremely quickly because you know, people are being people. Oh well. Hopefully the dust settles and they can figure it out.<p>Another thing that rubs me the wrong way: &quot;lack of Black representation&quot;. So here&#x27;s the question: is somebody <i>actively suppressing Black applicants</i>, or are there simply <i>no Black applicants</i>?<p>If it&#x27;s the former, obviously that&#x27;s a huge problem. But I suspect it&#x27;s the latter and if that&#x27;s really the case then this seems like people basically rebelling against an objective reality they can do nothing against, but still make a drama over it. If there are <i>literally</i> no black people who want to do things X and Y, how is that even a reason to feel bad about stuff? Same way as you won&#x27;t find many Japanese golfers in, say, Italy. There simply are not enough people out there with the characteristics you are focused on that do the things you feel they should feel more represented in. Nothing you can do.<p>EDIT: And before I keep receiving replies that are COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC, my question to any reader or commenter is this: where do we draw the line on what should the Rust Foundation do when relating to world-wide social injustice problems? Many people seem to think that it&#x27;s a trampoline to achieving social justice in the world and I strongly disagree with that stance. Let&#x27;s keep our goals realistic and compartmentalized; there are other organizations out there that fight injustice as their main objective. Rust Foundation is not that.
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mgaunard将近 2 年前
All of the &quot;social&quot; aspects of programming are full of drama.<p>There isn&#x27;t a conference where I don&#x27;t hear about a LGBTQ person not being offended by so and so.<p>Then you have the politics of who gets to set out the true vision or be a chair at this or that committee.<p>If you&#x27;re serious about programming, you just stay away from both of these. Being a language expert is pretty irrelevant anyway, it&#x27;s just some ego-boosting in case you can&#x27;t be successful at your business domain.
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julienfr112将近 2 年前
It looks like JeanHeyd is unwittingly used as a weapon in a conflict internal to the Rust leadership. It look to me as an escalation of the conflict : - First, a power move to invite someone outside of the community that have a strong point of view on a technical subject. As any organisation, you have to make move to make your agenda move forward. - Second, an escalation with the uninvite. Not polite, but asserts the power you have within the organisation. - Third, a resignation with a strong post that is another level of conflict.<p>What will happen next ?
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oytis将近 2 年前
As someone who doesn&#x27;t follow very closely, the amount of drama around Rust seems to be something unseen among open source projects before.<p>Is it that BDFL-based governance just works better, or do people have higher expectations from Rust community than from, say, Linux one?
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Yasuraka将近 2 年前
&gt;I wept because of the cruelty. But I also wept because I helped create the system that could do this to someone.<p>I believe these must&#x27;ve been Oppenheimer&#x27;s words
mtzet将近 2 年前
&gt; as best as I understand it, because of the content of JeanHeyd&#x27;s blog post on reflection in Rust.<p>I&#x27;m having trouble finding it. Can anyone link this post?
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Havoc将近 2 年前
With this and the trademark drama it sure looks like leadership could do with a change of guards
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pyrelight将近 2 年前
Even if none of this was rooted in retribution or racism or unilateral decision making, the fact that a group representing some of the brightest developers working today did not have the foresight to see how this would play out in today&#x27;s social climate, is too bad.<p>Event organizers need someone who can think through all the angles of decisions made and how it affects attendees and the communities being represented. The fact that a group made up of logical thinkers couldn&#x27;t foresee this (or maybe they did and just don&#x27;t care), is sad.
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distcs将近 2 年前
For the Rust ignorants like me can someone be kind enough to explain who jntrnr is? The only info I can find is that he worked on Rust core. Can&#x27;t find an about page or any other information about this personality?<p>Is his role significant enough that his departure from Rust will force Rust leadership to fix their internal problems?
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zamalek将近 2 年前
Is this the same group who conjured up that _top-notch_ trademark policy? If so, how would the community go about removing them?
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thiht将近 2 年前
I swear there’s more (public) drama in the Rust community than in every other language’s combined. This is really not engaging, it feels like the core team (what actually matters with a programming language) could implode at any time because someone sneezed wrong.
artyom将近 2 年前
Jeez, I miss the days of strong open source leadership.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=i2lhwb_OckQ">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=i2lhwb_OckQ</a>
WhereIsTheTruth将近 2 年前
That&#x27;s what happen when you fanboy for a product, instead of using tools for what they are when you need them, you become their puppet, and they leverage you to push whatever BS they have in their pocket<p>The people with a crab or the electric zig on their social media profile thing are all the same and will end up being disappointed the same way at some point<p>Don&#x27;t fanboy, stay critic and reevaluate your tools needs whenever possible
JdeBP将近 2 年前
There&#x27;s more discussion at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36090512" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36090512</a> .
da39a3ee将近 2 年前
The article notably avoided the topic of WHY the technical talk was objected to.<p>Are we to surmise that some people in the Rust leadership felt that the speaker was invited because of their race&#x2F;skin color, and objected on this basis?<p>Or is it less dramatic than that -- simply that some people in leadership felt that the technical content just wasn&#x27;t good enough, and the author of the article we&#x27;re reading can&#x27;t bear someone being judged on technical merit?<p>Either way, to put it in simple terms, I think we&#x27;re reading an article from someone on the woke&#x2F;progressive side complaining about the actions of the other side, right?<p>Perhaps it&#x27;s actually this article (a complaining article with bizarre overly emotional language) which is evidence of problems with Rust&#x27;s leadership community and the decision being complained about was reasonable?
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fnordpiglet将近 2 年前
I see so much angst here, an awful lot of it hinging around:<p>* it’s a language and technical thing so human emotions and feelings don’t matter HTFU<p>* there’s a race and diversity aspect and anything that has to do with race and diversity offends me HTFU<p>Or some variant.<p>These are people doing stuff they’re passionate about. You may be an end user and don’t care about the internal politics, but for these folks it’s a group of humans working together with all the emotional complexities of such things. It’s more like a job for them than a technical project - with all the HR issues those entail. If you’ve ever worked on a standards effort it’s <i>even more</i> the human complexity roller coaster than a job. Add in they’re a bunch of socially maladjusted nerds, and the thresholds for drama are lower and the ability to navigate is even worse.<p>So, I think empathy for those who are hurt and their reasons isn’t uncalled for. Hearing the other side would be useful too.<p>On the race and diversity side: having a black person give a key note at a conference of this technical depth would be good. Arguing it shouldn’t matter doesn’t consider black engineers in a field where there are no peers like them that are visible. In your life where you’re surrounded by people like you everywhere you go it’s likely hard to understand directly, but as a nerd remember when you were in middle school and you just wished for one other person who loved assembler as much as you. That scratches the surface of the feeling of exclusion minority engineers feel - except it didn’t end in middle school, it happens every day in every interaction. Then when someone dares say “hey yeah I get you,” they get shouted down for “making it political,” which sounds an awful lot like “I don’t like black people standing up for themselves” to black peoples ears - further isolating them. I’m sorry you find that inconvenient and you feel like it shouldn’t matter. But as the person who doesn’t fit in and is made to remember that in situations and discussions like this, it’s bound to hurt. Hence, hence the emotions of hurt and betrayal on display.
stcroixx将近 2 年前
Languages that don’t have a built in police squad don’t have issues like this. The ‘community’ around Rust is its biggest handicap right now.
lamontcg将近 2 年前
How come we can&#x27;t have a technical discussion about reflection in a language without it degenerating into this kind of a shitshow?<p>And all the people who immediately started accusing rust of being &quot;woke&quot; are equally at fault here--don&#x27;t think for a moment that I&#x27;m on your side. This whole thread is a disaster.<p>How did we get here in the first place that people seem to have religious beliefs over a language feature and want to scream at other people that they&#x27;re heretics (and see the wailing and moaning in the Go community over generics for another example).<p>All of you, grow the goddamn fuck up, please.
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znpy将近 2 年前
So basically “I don’t like your article” is enough to get a speaker removed in the rust conf &#x2F; rust leadership space?<p>Ngl, that looks like teen drama.<p>Really poor leadership, it seems there wasn’t even an attempt at mediation, or a vote, or anything.
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wyldfire将近 2 年前
I wonder if Rust would be better off with a BDFL. It sounds like the antithesis of some of the governing goals that were established but perhaps it would deliver some consistency.
veidr将近 2 年前
This looks to me like a shitty situation, handled badly, <i>but</i>... having read this thread backwards, starting with the HN comments, then JeanHeyd Meneide&#x27;s own blog post about it, and finally the &quot;Why I Left Rust&quot; post being discussed here... I mean, shit happens? It&#x27;s easy to fuck up when planning a big conference and sometimes you end up wasting the time of presenters, or (arguably worse) the audience, or (maybe the worst) sending the world the opposite of the message you intended, or some combination of those.<p>Or sometimes, yes, you end up exposing your organization as the cabal of racist authoritarian illegitimate corporate-sellout puppetmasters that it actually is.<p>But I mean... I don&#x27;t see strong evidence of the latter, unless there is more to the backstory than I gleaned from the process above, which is:<p>1. No non-white person has ever given a keynote at RustConf (according to the linked &quot;Why I Left Rust&quot; post)<p>2. This one was going to be that.<p>3. But then the conference organizers canceled it, in a ham-fisted way.<p>4. But also, the topic was controversial, in the sense that at least some stakeholders may have felt &quot;this kind of compile time reflection will definitely not be added to Rust in the foreseeable future&quot;<p>So... it is absolutely understandable that the Meneide was highly irritated by the way it was handled, and ended up declining to present at all.<p>But did the Rust organization &quot;disgrace&quot; this expert in the field? Did Rust act as a &quot;cruel, heartless entity&quot;?<p>I will concede the late rejection (of the talk as a &quot;keynote&quot;) was &quot;unprofessional&quot;, but... was it &quot;vindictive&quot;? That implies the organization wanted revenge for something... what?<p>It&#x27;s not clear to me after clicking and reading for almost an hour. But it seems to be consistent with the pattern of the various entities around Rust stepping on their own dicks. I&#x27;m reminded of the Rust Foundation taking out full-page newspaper ads like &quot;IMPLEMENTING A CRYPTO PONZI SCHEME? DO IT FASTER IN RUST!&quot; and then actual Rust core team people were like &quot;:fuck-you-emoji: :barf-emoji:&quot;.<p>I would be perhaps relieved that they are apparently making a significant effort at reforming their governance (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;rust-lang&#x2F;rfcs&#x2F;pull&#x2F;3392">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;rust-lang&#x2F;rfcs&#x2F;pull&#x2F;3392</a>) were it not for the fact that one of the authors of that PR is the author of the post we&#x27;re discussing here, who just quit the Rust project entirely. :grimace-of-regret-emjoi:
neilv将近 2 年前
Rust is supposed to help keep the programmer from shooting themself in the foot, but lately the Rust community&#x2F;leadership keeps shooting itself.
aigoochamna将近 2 年前
I can try to summarize my understanding of events.<p><pre><code> 1. Dude gets invited to do a keynote. 2. Dude gets his keynote invite withdrawn because some members of the rust team were &quot;uncomfortable&quot; with the content of dude&#x27;s blog. The content which was technical and not of the standard Twitter&#x2F;cancellation variety. 3. Second Dude leaves rust leadership because he seen how the rust community treated first dude. </code></pre> Totally understandable. Why waste more time with a community that can&#x27;t discuss things critically even if they go against many ideas of the tech in question? Maybe a bit of an over reaction, but it&#x27;s likely he knew a lot more of the community and what it&#x27;s really like. This was likely the last straw.<p>Alternatively, look at the Go community and leadership. The Go team discussed generics and eventually implemented them although leadership and the community was often against it. They certainly didn&#x27;t cancel keynotes or speakers that were pro-generics.
coldtea将近 2 年前
&gt;<i>A couple team members had strong opinions&#x2F;discomfort against JeanHeyd being selected as a keynote speaker, as best as I understand it, because of the content of JeanHeyd&#x27;s blog post on reflection in Rust</i><p>Any project with such people in it would succeed despite of them, not because of them. It&#x27;s sad to see a project burdened by egos and bureaucracy.
jokoon将近 2 年前
I guess one real benefit of rust is that it will encourage C++ to find way to be a bit more safer. cpp2&#x2F;cppfront is one such initiative, and there are a few other programming practices that encourage safety.<p>But other than that, rust is just a &quot;modern ADA&quot;, nothing more. It cannot easily get interfaced with existing UI API either. Having verifiable code is a niche thing, it is very important, but most programmers don&#x27;t need it.<p>Not to mention that rust is generally more difficult to read than C, and a language will always fail to be largely adopted if its learning curve is too steep. At least in C++, you can write code that resembles C, so it&#x27;s still approachable to beginners. Not in rust.<p>I wish rust was easier to learn and had a syntax closer to C, while retaining its secure features. It has too many weird specific features and syntax that are too alien. A big reason python is popular is because it retains this &quot;C style&quot; and is so easy to deal with. Rust is the opposite of that.
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lr1970将近 2 年前
First, the entire moderator team (BurntSushi et el) resigned citing inappropriate actions of a Rust core team member (details were not made public). Now JT resigns for a similar reason. Rust project governance has been a problem for a while and it seems to be getting worse.
mfru将近 2 年前
Can someone explain to me the reasoning the original persons [1] blog post is flagged but not this one?<p>(I don&#x27;t agree with flagging either)<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36091242" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=36091242</a>
chrishare将近 2 年前
Can we acknowledge that we, software professionals, crave drama just like soap opera junkies?
frankfrank13将近 2 年前
Bro wtf is happening at rust. How does a programming language have this much drama WEEKLY
epistasis将近 2 年前
For completely unrelated reasons, I got into Rust this week again for the first time in years. I had to write a small bit of code that went really fast, but have sworn off C. It was really really fun, and I want to write more rust! (Though I don&#x27;t get to write much code these days)<p>I&#x27;m actually really glad to see this sort of stuff be aired in the community, and I hope it strengthens the Rust community and makes the language stronger. I really hope that Rust gets greater adoption. The syntax with lifetimes is a bit painful, but everything else is really amazing for making super fast code when needed.
ok123456将近 2 年前
If Linus suffered this sort of dictatorship of the code of conduct, where would the Linux kernel be today?<p>My guess is that it wouldn&#x27;t have conquered every arena of computing outside of desktop computing like it has.
june_twenty将近 2 年前
Let&#x27;s take a step back for a moment. All of these people involved are working on the language that would&#x2F;might be one of the big languages in the future. It doesn&#x27;t fill me with hope.
overgard将近 2 年前
I haven&#x27;t started using Rust, but I feel quite concerned about getting invested in it if the leadership acts like this. The people responsible need to step down or make amends.
bsenftner将近 2 年前
This continual tech industry drama, doesn&#x27;t matter if one is talking Rust, Go, Node, or pretty much anything, technology industry members will treat their personal situations and perspectives as litanies of outrageous violations of their integrity.<p>Fact of the matter: our entire industry is never taught how to professionally communicate, and these constant drama fests are the manifestation of immature communication skills, across the board, our entire industry.
0xbadc0de5将近 2 年前
When presented with a vast malicious conspiracy, I try to default to Hanlon&#x27;s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained as stupidity.
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Capricorn2481将近 2 年前
The irony of people in this thread bemoaning humanity, how we can&#x27;t all just get along, while simultaneously blasting &quot;woke&quot; politics is palpable
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malkosta将近 2 年前
When is the Taylor swift concert?
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ianzakalwe将近 2 年前
Organization that is “uncomfortable” with being criticized is always going to struggle to expand and adjust.<p>I have being part of rust community since 2013, I have seen lots of oddities over the years in this community. While it is inspiring to see such a dedicated and passionate community it is also upsetting to see same community kill off its own members based on disagreements and inability to carry any sort of constructive discourse.
encody将近 2 年前
Everyone involved seems... petty and immature at worst, overly sensitive at best.<p>Conference organizers sucked at communication, both internally and with the speaker.<p>But the speaker doesn&#x27;t take the affront in stride, instead choosing to make a stink on Twitter, complain, swear about a ruined weekend, and call people racist. Not the kind of professionalism I would expect from a prospective keynote speaker.
say_it_as_it_is将近 2 年前
&gt; It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers.<p>JeanHeyd race-shamed their way right onto the main stage for a global tech conference? I can&#x27;t imagine why anyone would take offense to that agenda. Yes, must be related to a blog post about compile-time reflection.
unixhero将近 2 年前
I see. The proposed keynote made it about identity politics. I am going to side with the Rust Board on this one.<p>To me this was a great and necessary decision.
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greesil将近 2 年前
So this person didn&#x27;t get to speak at the conference, and they quit? But their technical contributions are still being added?<p>Did I get that right?
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nbittich将近 2 年前
After the Kardashians, the world needs a new reality show: the rustaceans. Somewhere btw Dallas and the youth and the restless.
revskill将近 2 年前
Emotional is cheap. Show me the algorithm (to resolve the whole process).<p>More empathy is welcome (from the keynote person, too). Instead of giving up, let&#x27;s try to improve things and avoid blaming instead. Blaming is not the best way to improve things, even if it hurt you.<p>Input: Presentations on some topics from some people.<p>Output: Fuzzy logic here right ?
babbledabbler将近 2 年前
It seems this is a case of poor decision and communication management rather than a machiavellian plot, however, it&#x27;s no less harmful or toxic in the outcome.<p>I&#x27;m actually working on an app for organizations to make clear, fair, and transparent decisions systematically so things like this don&#x27;t happen.
slackfan将近 2 年前
A member of the rust committe (Uber for C) well known for their histryonics makes a hystrionic blogpost about another rust community member acting hystrionic. The comments divide into two camps among US political lines and spend the rest of the time debating woke culture. No tech is discussed.
kazinator将近 2 年前
&gt; <i>A person in Rust ... reached directly to RustConf leadership and asked to change the invitation</i><p>Programmers are control freaks.<p>If you don&#x27;t let yourself to reach into things and flip bits in the machine&#x27;s memory, that&#x27;s going to boil over somewhere.
erdeibit将近 2 年前
Exactly the kind of things that prevent me to approach Rust. Part of their community is very unwelcoming.
anta40将近 2 年前
I think the title is &quot;click bait-ish&quot; because it implies the person stopped writing in Rust :D
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chclt将近 2 年前
People seem to conflate two things in this discussion: interpersonal issues (which are valid to talk about) and technical disagreements. Conflating these two can only lead to drama and reflects really poorly on the participants. Come on aren&#x27;t we all adults here?!
RenThraysk将近 2 年前
So someone has a belief that some feature may have benefit the language, and people are stating they are uncomfortable? I suspect (as complete outsider) there has to be more going on here and the &quot;uncomfortable&quot; people are not being sincere &amp; honest.
zelphirkalt将近 2 年前
This reads like lots of drama ensued internally (whether justified or not) and now a person writes about it creating more drama externally, or at least tries to.<p>It would have been interesting, to write about who and what topic was chosen as a replacement as well. I guess, I can understand not wanting to have to do much with people, who for not justifying reasons demote a speaker, whom one thinks highly of. It probably raises the question of what is more important to oneself. The project or the other people involved in it. Apparently the project was not important enough.<p>This blog post has a feel of creating more drama though. The person considers themselves important enough, that people may wonder why they left Rust. Well, normal people leave and when people ask, they answer. Possibly in detail, possibly a canned answer. If people really want to know, they can ask. Making it a public announcement has the drama feel to it.<p>I get this feeling often with rather publicly well known projects. Supposedly prominent people who are so kind to donate their time to the cause, but at a hickup leave the project and write a drama blog post or worse tweet or something. Seemingly making us think, that they are a great loss for the project. Well apparently their priorities were different. More about the people or prestige of working on the project than the actual project, which they might even be harming with their drama blog post.<p>And then that section:<p>&gt; I also felt the weight of the context of the decision. JeanHeyd isn&#x27;t just a recent grant recipient of the Rust Foundation. JeanHeyd has important history with the Rust project.<p>&gt; It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation.<p>&gt; When I saw an organization that not only could act so coldly to an expert in the field, but also to one who was a vocal critic of Rust&#x27;s lack of diversity, it was hard not to see the additional context.<p>&gt; Systems have memory and biases. If the people that make up the system don&#x27;t work to fight against these, they are perpetuated.<p>No, no, no. Firstly, no explanation, what JeanHeyd actually did for Rust. Nagging about lack of diversity OK, but did they make suggestions for people to invite? Or was it just complaining? I would not call it &quot;important history&quot; then. Complaining about diversity or the lack of is easy. Did they do anything themselves to change it? And why the racism? What inherent qualities does JeanHeyd ascribe to &quot;black&quot; people? And what significant contributions did JeanHeyd make?<p>I am for diversity, but it needs to be based on actual merit and not just that stupid &quot;Oh we got no blacky, lets invite one, then we are good!&quot;. Make it a reasonable choice! Look for the talent and invite it, not because of some skin color ideas. Make sure you do not fall into bias avoiding other ethnicities because of who they are. But also make sure not to overlook greater merit, because you haven&#x27;t ticked a bock on your skin color check list yet. If a &quot;black&quot; person is the best fit, choose them. If not, then choose someone else. Don&#x27;t friggin base it on color. If you base these things merely on color of the skin, you are opening the doors for the unpleasant crowd, who will argue, that a person did not get into their position by merit, but by skin color. You don&#x27;t want such crowd, so don&#x27;t attract them with such argumentation.<p>&gt; As my buddy Aman pointed out, the context that this would have also been the first keynote by a person of color at RustConf should not be lost here.<p>And the value in that is? Just to be aligned with ideology? Or some racism behind it?<p>As a viewer I want a good keynote. I don&#x27;t care what the color of that person is. Why do you make it a color question? What does it have to do with color? This kind of argumentation makes me think, that they are actually more racist than others. It is all so forced, it is no longer authentic. Let it be done in authentic ways. And again, don&#x27;t argue on the basis of skin color, otherwise you are just as racist as the guy who rejects a person on the basis of skin color.<p>In some situations one can argue on the basis of additional diverse cultural background being brought into a situation, group, company, etc. It needs to have something to do with the subject at hand though. Say for example a teacher in a primary school. There it could make a difference to have a person with different cultural background, to teach the children more things and make them aware of different culture. It is an argumentation one can follow. But just arguing: &quot;We don&#x27;t have 10 &#x27;black&#x27; people at our conference yet.&quot; is very weak and ethically slippery terrain.
b1234将近 2 年前
We are the C. Resistance is futile. Your technological and paradigmatic distinctiveness will be added to our own. The syntax will be clunky. It will be full of dangerous and ugly ways to misuse it. You will be adapted to single pass compile. Lower your shields.
tomaaron将近 2 年前
From my observations rustis are very much about drama. Reminds me also of the drama of Actix web. There’s also a video about it: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;enLUX1TtNyE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;enLUX1TtNyE</a> Better Go :)
QuiEgo将近 2 年前
As someone picking between C and Rust for a new codebase, this is going on my list of &quot;cons&quot; for Rust. I&#x27;m supposed to build a product above all else. Will the drama get in the way of Rust surviving down the road?
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sxhunga将近 2 年前
A so-called &quot;Leadership&quot; cannot bring out of the conference what I think differently. Leadership must have the power of the word if it has a mind in the head. I think these are the traits of Leadership.
wly_cdgr将近 2 年前
Yeah, thanks, but I&#x27;m gonna go ahead and stick with the language made by the earnest working class guy. You know, the one that everyone loves to complain about, but that everything is built with.
quantumwoke将近 2 年前
It seems like one scandal after another for Rust recently.<p>Why can&#x27;t we just focus on code and the brilliant work from JeanHeyd rather than politics? The Servo post was a reminder of how it used to be.
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29athrowaway将近 2 年前
The blog post sound reasonable until the racial part started.<p>Is this an accusation that the change was made on racial grounds? Otherwise I fail to see why mentioning it.
Lanz将近 2 年前
I love how everything has to be spun into something about race by the left. You win today&#x27;s award for the Wokest Bloke.
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aogaili将近 2 年前
Rust is not a humnan, you are dealing with humans, and humans are flawed, accept it and protect what you care about.
bscphil将近 2 年前
The worst thing about this shitshow of a thread is that those of us accusing the Rust leadership of being woke and those of us accusing the blog post author of being woke don&#x27;t seem to have gotten each other&#x27;s memos.<p>If we can just all get on the same page about this, we&#x27;ll be able to figure out who it&#x27;s appropriate for us to hate, as levelheaded software engineers who never let emotions cloud our judgments.
forty将近 2 年前
If they don&#x27;t have bigger problems than that, I&#x27;d say it seems to be a pretty nice community...
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aww_dang将近 2 年前
How does this kind of organizational drama affect me as an end user of the Rust programming language?
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rvz将近 2 年前
The so-called &quot;Rust community&quot; (As if that existed) and especially the Rust Foundation is going down <i>blazingly</i> fast, with all these pointless melodrama and tea time tantrums.<p>This whole post really is a first world problem and the issue at had is as great as the great explosion of the ant hill in the back garden, which almost no-one cares about.
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meatjuice将近 2 年前
It doesn’t mean that Rust itself is a bad programming language.
beezlewax将近 2 年前
Rust is a programming language.. emotionally charged articles like this one and the behaviour of the Rust leadership lately are both ridiculous.<p>Programmers want good stable languages that are a joy to work with. Everthing else but this can take a hike.
edem将近 2 年前
why did the they have discomfort? is it because of reflection of is it because he was a black dude? does someone know the answer?
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BaculumMeumEst将近 2 年前
time to hard fork and create Virtuous Crablang
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totallyunknown将近 2 年前
Is there already a ChatGPT Plugin out to summarise blog posts?<p>tl&#x2F;dr: &quot;The key message in this text is a call for accountability following the decision to downgrade JeanHeyd Meneide from keynote speaker at RustConf due to disagreements with his blog post. The decision was perceived as disrespectful and cruel, lacking in appropriate organizational procedures. This has highlighted a larger systemic problem within the Rust organization and prompted the author&#x27;s resignation. They call for a full investigation, a greater focus on accountability rather than diplomacy, protection of individuals from such unjust actions, and the implementation of safeguards to prevent similar incidents in the future.&quot;
jasmer将近 2 年前
&quot;Rust acted as a cruel, heartless entity that did not care about JeanHeyd and treated him as disposable. &quot;<p>&quot;But it was just a downgrade. I shake my head at people that say things like this. Clearly, they are not used to treating people - let alone experts in the field - with respect. &quot;<p>It was actually just a downgrade - and using terms like &#x27;cruel&#x27; lacks proportionality.<p>It&#x27;s a bit petty, especially for these kinds of public grievances over very personal, pedantic kinds of things.<p>Obviously what Rust did was &#x27;not good&#x27; - these things happen all the time - and they need perspective and context.<p>All this huff and puff from people who take themselves a bit too seriously, maybe to the point of arrogance - we&#x27;re professionals not artists, and that means &#x27;making sausage as best we can&#x27;. It&#x27;s all sausage, nothing is perfect, toes get stepped on - roll with it - that is the sign of maturity and confidence. If there is a systemic issue take that up.<p>Paradoxically it&#x27;s these kinds of public slap fights over that make me wary of being engaged with a community, it&#x27;s too much Kardashian.
0zemp2c将近 2 年前
crablang was started as sort-of satire...if Rust folks aren&#x27;t careful it might just take off
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wirrbel将近 2 年前
I would have expected such a resignation after two weeks time to see whether the organization would improve their decision making process
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