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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

295 点作者 SmileyKeith将近 2 年前

47 条评论

rustthrow将近 2 年前
&gt; The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference?<p>yes! it does!<p>we can&#x27;t keep framing everything as race, gender, or orientation related. people have to have basic filters for what the most important issue is in a situation. stop falling back to &quot;easy&quot; outs or making sweeping statements about the &quot;deeper systemic problem&quot;.<p>there are plenty of social problems which can&#x27;t be solved by attaching every motive to every situation
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d3nj4l将近 2 年前
In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is <i>so much</i> hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust &quot;community&quot; look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!
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mort96将近 2 年前
&gt; Part of me is very disappointed in the enormous waste of time that is the “crablang” fork, and wishes the people involved could have engaged in a constructive manner instead.<p>Any group who decides to fork Rust probably isn&#x27;t in a position of power to turn the whole Rust Project and Rust Foundation into something less messy. Without knowing any of the specifics about this &quot;crablang&quot; fork, creating a well-resourced, thoughtfully governed fork is often a pretty good solution to stewardship issues, and sometimes, new governance structures and procedures can even be ported back into the original project (see node.js vs io.js). Writing it off as &quot;an enormous waste of time&quot; where the people involved should have &quot;engaged in a constructive manner instead&quot; seems disingenuous.<p>Not that this is a core part of the post, and this doesn&#x27;t detract from the overall message.
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cookieperson将近 2 年前
Fasterthanlime is something like my spirit animal. Prolific and educational blogs that have challenged my knowledge with whimsy joy and catharsis. Also apparently emotionally intelligent and making the right moves here.<p>Sometimes it&#x27;s better to drop out and start something new. An unofficial convention would be fantastic.<p>I&#x27;m sick of the clout chasing in these niche tech areas, it always drowns out the real passion and all the fun. The passion that fosters a healthy community and technological success.<p>Sometimes I wish a personality test was common for these ad hoc governance type positions (not just rust but with any OSS software). Not to exclude people but to decide if things are balanced. The people who want nothing to do with these systems often should be the ones figuring it out, but the people leaving trails of bodies behind them to plant their flag should be nowhere near them.<p>Thanks for sticking up for the people resigning and framing the bullshit in a realistic way. Also thanks for staying positive and I hope you keep blogging!
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iknowstuff将近 2 年前
Uh, at this point, just name them? What is this, Hollywood? Where everyone knows what&#x27;s happening but doesn&#x27;t say anything until a big scandal occurs and everyone piles on?
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ummonk将近 2 年前
&gt; Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen, the Twitch streamer &#x2F; YouTuber with whom I used to be friendly, for milking those controversies for every view and sub possible. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues.<p>Nah. Bureaucracies don&#x27;t even try to solve these issues if there isn&#x27;t a public backlash.
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armchairhacker将近 2 年前
I think this Rust drama is way over-exaggerated. One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn&#x27;t be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider &quot;keynote downgraded to regular presentation&quot; don&#x27;t seem like much). And now multiple people are leaving the Rust team, and some random commentators are &quot;disgraced&quot; by the Rust Project, and &quot;threatening&quot; to stop using Rust?<p>The best solution would be to just reverse the downgrade, and have ThePHD deliver the keynote. Send a strong message that there <i>would</i> be a major fallout had the Rust Project committed to their internally-made decision, but give them a chance to actually do the right thing. But that&#x27;s presumably not happening, because ThePHD already left the presentation without giving them a chance to respond.<p>I also think the &quot;Rust logo&quot; controversy was over-exaggerated, since they didn&#x27;t actually implement the copyright but only <i>proposed</i> to. And the entire mod team resigning made the <i>mod team</i> look bad, at least initially, because they didn&#x27;t even really explain why.<p>The bright side of this over-reaction is that it&#x27;s going to get some response from the Rust Project. Because apparently strong words are the only way to get a closed-door organization to respond appropriately. They&#x27;ll post some sort of apology, and maybe it won&#x27;t just be words, but they will actually become more transparent in a way that guarantees this will never happen again. Like how they all but walked back the copyright proposal and re-structured the core team following mod team resignation (or did they?).<p><i>But that&#x27;s not an excuse. This sort of drama is toxic, I honestly think more toxic than the original action</i>. Like, I feel bad for whoever made the anonymous decision to downgrade ThePHD&#x27;s keynote, because even though it was wrong and hurtful, it doesn&#x27;t deserve this level of vitriol. There needs to be better a way to get change than over-reacting to every mistake.<p>I really do hope the Rust project becomes more transparent, not only to prevent the situation from happening in the future, but the response. If everything has community input, when bad decisions happen the community can only blame themselves.
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throwawaymaths将近 2 年前
&gt; downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully<p>Who would have suspected this was racially motivated?<p>Not to defend any <i>actions</i> by anyone, but a keynote <i>is</i> an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it&#x27;s a small component of a bigger update&#x2F;forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.
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ZephyrBlu将近 2 年前
<i>&quot;And most of the time, it turned out that the intentions were, in fact, good! But the execution was poor — or that there was a lack of resources, a lack of process, or a lack of manpower, or a deadline to hold, or it was just that person being that person again.</i><p>...<p><i>And it’s not like they’re really bad people, it’s more like they tend to… use back channels rather than follow process? Or they have too many responsibilities, and are unable to fulfill all of them properly? Or maybe they don’t listen enough?</i><p><i>Or maybe it’s not individuals, but pairs of individuals who have a feud for some reason or other (sometimes completely valid). Maybe one party feels slighted by something that happened years ago, maybe they have irreconcilable goals or technical views, or differing opinions on what belongs where.&quot;</i><p>The complaint has not been that they are bad people, it&#x27;s that they are incompetent. This seems to confirm that some of the people involved are indeed incompetent.<p>This seems way more cut and dry than the author is portraying.<p>Kinda crazy that this was supposed to be a clean slate for Rust governance.
mustache_kimono将近 2 年前
&gt; Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen.. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues.<p>Isn&#x27;t public controversy the exact atmosphere these blog posts and resignations, for lack of a better word -- drama, is meant to foment?<p>FTR I think Prime is just as wrong about this as anyone. The real issue was the issue re: trademark, etc. The real issue here is a failure of leadership. When you&#x27;re in leadership and someone does something bad, why resign? Why not request an apology? When it&#x27;s not given, why not build support for an apology? When an apology is again not forthcoming, you can publicly resign, but when you do, maybe some others will too, and you can say &quot;10 of us signed a letter requesting an apology, including 3 members of his&#x2F;her own team, and it was refused&quot;?<p>Some technical people are unsurprisingly bad at leadership duties, and sometimes tactless, because these are difficult things, and we need to stop pretending they aren&#x27;t.<p>There is no quick fix, but someone needs to do something other than just resign, because it&#x27;s not leadership, and so far it&#x27;s proven to do very little other than create more drama.<p>&gt; It’s really more like those 4 or 5 persons. And it’s not like they’re really bad people, it’s more like they tend to… use back channels rather than follow process? Or they have too many responsibilities, and are unable to fulfill all of them properly? Or maybe they don’t listen enough?<p>If it&#x27;s 4-5 people, it sounds more like there is a cultural problem that needs to be fixed, and if I were to guess that cultural problem is -- there perhaps need to be soft-technical PM-like, senior statesmen tracks. There needs to be someone not involved in the day to day who can listen, help settle disputes, smooth things over, and direct&#x2F;focus teams, because it doesn&#x27;t sound like these technical people are acting like leaders. And jerky behavior should have consequences.
flumpcakes将近 2 年前
When did programming, and the choice of implementation, become people&#x27;s identities? These endless drama sagas just makes everyone look very childish, from the outside. I don&#x27;t think we would see this in other engineering fields. Embarrassing.
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denvercoder904将近 2 年前
It&#x27;s not JeanHeyd Meneide&#x27;s (PhD) first time rage quitting. He has a history of this. He previously rage quitted from the C++ community and moved to the C community. I wonder where he&#x27;s moving to next. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;vaLKm9FE8oo" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;vaLKm9FE8oo</a>
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adamrezich将近 2 年前
&gt; The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference?<p>who <i>actually</i> perceives this situation this way? why would <i>anyone</i> perceive this situation this way, by default? this statement is needlessly inflammatory to a ridiculous degree—why would <i>anyone</i> assume <i>overt</i> anti-black bigotry as being the cause for <i>any</i> decision in <i>any</i> professional circle, in this year of our Lord Twenty Twenty-Three? why pour fuel on the fire like this?<p>this is yet another major red flag that indicates that I should stay far away from this &quot;community&quot;—there&#x27;s clearly motivations and frames of thought at play here that don&#x27;t mirror my perception of the real world in a very concerning way.
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ibejoeb将近 2 年前
What am I missing? The rust board, or whatever entity, booked a keynote and then unceremoniously canceled it, right? Poor diplomacy, but why is there so much chiming on and so many allusions of various -isms?
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alex_lav将近 2 年前
OSS is funny to me in some capacities. A marketed positive of OSS is &quot;You can fork it and make your own changes!&quot;, and yet, when someone actually does this with a prolific project (Rust and Node.js are the big two that come to mind), they&#x27;re met with &quot;How dare they! This is exploitive and unproductive!&quot;<p>I&#x27;m not sure what the solution is, or if there is one, but the prospect of forking a major project and being met with positivity seems to be pretty unproven.
shri_krishna将近 2 年前
&gt; Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen, the Twitch streamer &#x2F; YouTuber with whom I used to be friendly, for milking those controversies for every view and sub possible. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues.<p>It is ridiculous that ThePrimeagen has been called out (without whom I wouldn&#x27;t have taken interest in learning Rust). He has been an avid supporter of Rust until the trademark fiasco broke out. No where did he &quot;rile up the masses&quot; or &quot;added fuel to the fire&quot;. The trademark draft was really bad. End of story.<p>&gt; Except, it’s never just that one person, you know? Otherwise I could burn myself by outing them, and do the whole community a favor. It’s really more like those 4 or 5 persons.<p>This is why I find it hypocritical. In the entire document there is no mention of even one person (or these group of insiders) who are creating these issues in the community. However, the one outsider who has been vocally supporting Rust (even made an entire Rust course on Frontend Masters) is being targeted.<p>Should tell you everything there is to tell about how the community has devolved.
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paddw将近 2 年前
There is obviously a lot of criticism justly being leveled at the poor quality of governance on Rust thus far, but I think a fair point I haven&#x27;t seen raised is, what other languages lacking a corporate sponsor as the primary driver of governance have done better? (and why)<p>Python is the main example I can think of after graduating from governance via BDFL, but is there any other new language which has achieved the same level of popularity as Rust?<p>So far, most of the drama seems to have been tangential to actual language features, so they at least deserve some credit for keeping technical aspects of development mostly on track.
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FrankWilhoit将近 2 年前
Thresholds of complexity are much, much lower than is usually believed.<p>The original sin of C was to release an informal [under]specification. Kernighan and Ritchie failed, catastrophically, to foresee the phenomenon of management pressure to release&#x2F;productionize software written by people who only half-knew the language. K&amp;R C (or each of its de facto, platform-bound reference implementations) was at least simple enough to learn. None of its successors have been. Verifiable or maintainable software cannot be written in any language that is too complex to understand (or that is in any way underspecified). Verifiable or maintainable software cannot be written in any language that its developer has only half learned. And software that is not both verifiable and maintainable is worse than no software at all.
pdimitar将近 2 年前
Oh come on already.<p>Start naming and shaming people, let the internet have its field day and let&#x27;s all go home. We all know people will reconverge at one point anyway. We all also know that nobody will get harmed regardless of all the drama.<p>I expect much more from adult people. Go drink some tea and have a 3-hour walk with your dog or partner or a friend, deliberately don&#x27;t touch the computer for 24h and let&#x27;s see how differently you&#x27;ll react.<p>Also, injecting identity politics in a programming language foundation has been a mistake from the get go. Sounds like opportunism.<p>My code of conduct would be &quot;don&#x27;t be an a-hole no matter what race or sexual orientation somebody has -- and anyone being a d-bag will get shown the door, no exceptions&quot;. That&#x27;s plenty enough and most people out there have enough common sense to know what you mean when you say it.<p>Also can we recognize that forks of popular programming languages NEVER truly take off.<p>So yeah, take a few deep breaths, disengage for a while and you might be surprised of the different thoughts that come to you after.<p>Let&#x27;s tone down the drama already, this already became super embarrassing for all parties.
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serial_dev将近 2 年前
these things keep happening and it shows a deeper problem with rust leadership and unaccountability.<p>Just like with the trademark policy fiasco just a month ago (which was also not the first Rust Drama), every community member - from speakers to organizers and regular language users - is confused, frustrated, feeling unappreciated with very slow official response and clarification.<p>I don&#x27;t want witch hunting, I understand some of the people involved are volunteers, but if there is a drama every month, someone is doing something wrong and all we see from the outside is that someone acts shady and there is no consequences.<p>I&#x27;m not saying they are evil people, I don&#x27;t hate anyone, I just think that they should do something else with their precious volunteer time.<p>It&#x27;s not a witch hunt to show someone the door.
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nmarkn将近 2 年前
I&#x27;m slightly on the side of JeanHeyd Meneide, on the other hand he strongly participated in cancelling Stallman:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gcc.gnu.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;gcc&#x2F;2021-March&#x2F;235124.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gcc.gnu.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;gcc&#x2F;2021-March&#x2F;235124.html</a><p>The Rust situation seems to be instance the woke purging each other, Soviet style.
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rch将近 2 年前
As an outsider with a professional interest in the language, it&#x27;s hard (well, tiresome) to sift through the various committees and boards to identify the people who actually design and implement the language.<p>Is there a concise roadmap that&#x27;s easy to share?
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hurril将近 2 年前
If someone resigns over this, then I would say that the right people are resigning. Very sad to see competence go but rage quit over this? Come on.<p>Come back tomorrow. Nothing has happened. Please!
mkl95将近 2 年前
I sense too much bureaucracy and micromanagement. I would typically expect that from 25+ year old languages. A technology as young as Rust shouldn&#x27;t be riddled with drama.
ltbarcly3将近 2 年前
I don&#x27;t want to add to the drama here, but I would suggest to Amos to just say what you want to say. If saying it would burn you to the point you would have to leave the community, find a way to say what you need to say to address the situation that doesn&#x27;t burn you out of the community. If there is absolutely no way to address the issue where you aren&#x27;t chased out then take a hard look at your own communication style, talk it out with trusted people who can give you perspective, and finally take a hard look at whether this is even a community that is worth being a part of.<p>Don&#x27;t post a bunch of emotional, vague, unclear semi-accusations against people you won&#x27;t even name. This is just adding to a bunch of drama with no possibility of any positive outcome.
quantum_state将近 2 年前
This does not help with evolving Rust forward with a robust ecosystem … something should be done …
skilled将近 2 年前
As a complete outsider to Rust, all I can say is that the Rust community should use this recent &quot;drama&quot; as a stepping stone to figure out the leadership problems and move on with a much stronger determination in the future.<p>I totally understand that perhaps all of this is not that big of a deal at all considering that sites like Hacker News puts tens of thousands of eyeballs on you in a split second. But if there&#x27;s something I&#x27;ve learned from these very sites is that Rust is a respected language and these kind of fallouts reek of issues that have nothing to do with the language itself but the people that are supposedly in positions of power.
rvz将近 2 年前
This is the reason why we cannot take the Rust community seriously with these tantrums. We have given them enough time to get a grip on this nonsense and instead they are embarrassing themselves with pantomimes like this.<p>I had very high hopes on Rust, but it seems that they have to find another tiny first world issue to complain about and magnify it into a giant nothing.<p>Admittedly, this whole saga is more entertaining than the average pantomime but even that has its limits of banana slip-ups. There is a time where this &#x27;entertainment&#x27; just turns into pure <i>incompetence</i> of this so-called community and its governance, which becomes very boring blazingly fast.
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jhatemyjob将近 2 年前
This is why I refuse to take Rust, Go, or Swift seriously. There are so many other languages out there that aren&#x27;t insanely political with so many people&#x27;s hands in it. There is no way good decisions can be made in an environment like that. Of course, the main advantage of joining the Rust cult is that the job market for &quot;Rust programmers&quot; is pretty well-defined, so labeling yourself as a &quot;Rust programmer&quot; will allow you to tap into those markets. But I&#x27;d argue those markets are pretty bad.
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all2well将近 2 年前
Possibly controversial take, but I don’t think it’s helpful to gossip about who the bad apples are. Either take a risk and name names, or wait until the dust settles.
1270018080将近 2 年前
Why does Rust drama pop up every once in awhile? Why are adults publishing soap opera drama on github? This is all for maintaining a programming language?
kristoff_it将近 2 年前
&gt; Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen, the Twitch streamer &#x2F; YouTuber with whom I used to be friendly, for milking those controversies for every view and sub possible. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues.<p>Nobody wants to name the one guy who Secret Hitler&#x27;d the keynote, but man let&#x27;s name call a streamer unaffiliated with the project as soon as we can because he read the original blog post on stream and said &#x27;this is bad&#x27;.
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zibarn将近 2 年前
Can someone do an eli5 please? I&#x27;ve read the statements of the people involved but hardly contextualized, how this is involving rust if so?
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Patrickmi将近 2 年前
As a Gopher sometimes am always wondering what’s the big deal ?, like proposal rejecting is like a second nature, who want to talk about features about a particular language? esp a language like go ?, maybe because there’s too much “entitled” devs in the rust community ( tbh I wouldn’t be surprised ) well am always here with my popcorn for more drama
deadletters将近 2 年前
&quot;even though it is VERY tempting to try and get involved with governance matters&quot;<p>That voice in your head is you wanting to do the right thing.
late2part将近 2 年前
In a false quarrel there is no true valour. (Benedick, Act 5 Scene 1) _Much Ado About Nothing_
adelarsq将近 2 年前
Would be really good a change no the communication side. But I am without expectations side there where days without any explanation about why a draft for trademark pourposes was so bad.<p>Now working with Rust I have the same feelings as working with Java...
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lucasfcosta将近 2 年前
I wonder whether there&#x27;s a correlation between how much people care about somewhat small issues and the quality of Rust.<p>Although I think this saga is a bit too dramatic, maybe that&#x27;s why Rust is such a great language: people care a lot.
xdennis将近 2 年前
Does anyone have a impartial summary about what this is about? I always hate when I&#x27;m late to drama and I have no idea what anyone is talking about.
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tibbydudeza将近 2 年前
Any committee of people usually means the worst of them - just like your HOA - the people who actually like doing this stuff of politicking and backstabbing are usually the worst people to lead.<p>Thank god we have a benevolent dictator for Linux and supporting actors (long may they live), really can&#x27;t imagine the mess Linux it would have become if we had a committee.
rowanG077将近 2 年前
Honestly this is a very bad look for both sides. But resigning over this tops everything. You don&#x27;t resign at the first sign something is wrong, you try to help fix it. Sure if that doesn&#x27;t work resign. No social environment is perfect and mistakes will always be made.
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fds98324jhk将近 2 年前
&gt; And it’s not like they’re really bad people, it’s more like they tend to… use back channels rather than follow process?<p>In Sebastian, FL, former public officials have been convicted and sentenced to incarceration time for doing this.
h2odragon将近 2 年前
Time for a fork? &quot;Rust without identity politics?&quot; Require anonymity and disclaimers of any human presence (virtues or failings) in regards to the Project in order to become a contributor.<p>Call it &quot;Dust&quot;. Mascot could be a crab louse.
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badrabbit将近 2 年前
Good advertisement for crablang, didn&#x27;t know it was a thing.
phendrenad2将近 2 年前
Sociologists in the future need to study the Rust project to understand what went wrong. I&#x27;m sure there are many lessons there.
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carpet_wheel将近 2 年前
Rust: Half the women, twice the mansplaining
sacnoradhq将近 2 年前
In most non-profit organizations, in the absence(s) of leadership or courage, most of the time the more sociopathic, unreasonable, and stubborn people tend to glom onto power while the opposite move on.