"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state?<p>Even my iPhone can turn turtle to protect its battery when it gets too low.<p>Also how much power does it take to keep the damn thing plugged in? The article indicates that a 100 foot extension cord isn't enough <i>just to break even</i> and the car discharges even when plugged in. A 100 foot cord of cheap 16 gauge wire can still supply almost 900 watts before the voltage drops below 100v. So it uses a kilowatt just to stand-by without even charging? That's one hell of a power vampire.<p>I think maybe they should spend a bit more time on the fundamentals and a bit less time on fancy bird-wing doors if they want to have a real product. The real car of the future is just a big dumb tray full of indestructible nickle-iron batteries and 4 wheel-hub motors bolted to the corners.

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency.<p>Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan.<p>All of these big, established car companies are doing it The Right Way - targeting customers who already drive highly efficient city cars. These are customers who predominantly drive short distances and who are used to driving a small car with few luxuries and a relatively low-powered engine. They understand the compromises necessary for efficiency. They're part of a car culture that sees nothing unusual about a 1.2 litre diesel engine or a turbocharged 900cc two-cylinder petrol engine. You can build these people a lightweight, efficient car that they can afford and that they'll be happy to drive.<p>Tesla are amongst the many upstarts who are doing it The Wrong Way. They're trying to skip the necessary evolutionary steps a customer needs to make before they will be happy with a battery electric car. They're trying to lure people straight from heavy midsize cars and SUV crossovers, which is doomed to failure. These customers just haven't entered the efficiency mentality. They don't realise that efficient cars are noisier because they're not carrying the weight of sound insulation. They're not ready to wind down the window on a hot day to save the energy that AC would use. Tesla are trying to engineer around culture and it's an expensive, flimsy mistake.<p>Sit it out, lobby congress to mandate improvements in diesel fuel quality and higher fleet efficiency standards, beg manufacturers to send over the clever little engines. Tax or shame SUV drivers into station wagons. Once you hear people describing the Ford Focus as a large family car, you'll know you're ready.

A lot of people have picked at the "it won't charge through a 100-foot extension cord" statement. While I have no idea if this particular statement is true or not, it certainly wouldn't be unexpected behavior for a power management system.<p>Modern charging and power conversion systems are designed to operate under specific use cases. When the Tesla charger first sees line voltage, it likely does some quick testing to see what kind of supply it's hooked up to, for example by trying to take 15 Amps and monitoring the line voltage. If the voltage sags too much, then it might back off to 12 Amps; after that, it probably just shuts off. The reason is that all of the AC/DC conversion circuitry is designed to operate with maximum efficiency at a certain input power; if the system can't deliver that power, then it's just going to shut down and assume that there's something wrong with the line.<p>Note, this does not mean that the battery requires 1kW continuous power to stay charged. In plugged mode, the car will switch the charger on and off every few minutes (if it's at all like a laptop or phone) and draw down the battery ever so slightly in between. This is the most efficient way to operate, and is much better for the battery than constantly stuffing it with a trickle of current.<p>If you want to see this in action on a consumer electronics scale, try plugging your iPad into the USB extension port on an iMac keyboard -- it will kindly let you know that it's not charging, and it will happily sit there and run its battery down to the cut-off point while plugged in.

Every laptop that uses a lithium ion battery should have this problem. Oddly enough every laptop manufacture has included circuitry that cuts battery power when it reaches 5% (when the OS reports 0% it's actually ~1-5%). Tesla should have no problem fixing this, the onboard electronics will die anyway when the battery dies so why not have them die a few hours earlier and allow 'recovery' by charging the vehicle.

My confusion with Tesla is this: around the rest of the world - outside of USA - there are already <i>very</i> fuel efficient automobiles. 60, 80, even 90 miles per gallon are common and applauded in Europe.<p>America has the opposite approach and appears to optimise for size, comfort and perceived safety. (SUVs, Trucks, large saloons.)<p>None of the things American consumers appear to value are correlated in the Tesla. When I look at the Tesla brand, product and marketing, all I can think is how popular this car would be in Europe. Just me? Why USA first?

"In at least one case, Tesla went even further. The Tesla service manager admitted that, unable to contact an owner by phone, Tesla remotely activated a dying vehicle’s GPS to determine its location and then dispatched Tesla staff to go there. It is not clear if Tesla had obtained this owner’s consent to allow this tracking5, or if the owner is even aware that his vehicle had been tracked. Further, the service manager acknowledged that this use of tracking was not something they generally tell customers about."<p>--<p>That screams class-action to me if Tesla can really track without knowledge of the owner AND will mean that I have absolutely zero interest in purchasing one till this is addressed.

I'm more impressed by people that spend $100k on a car and then don't know how to take care of it.<p>Do you know what happens when an ICE engine is left to sit for months? First the oil runs out to the pain and slowly evaporates. The cylinders might suffer some sticktion and possibly rust. And you've probably got small animals that have made a home in your engine block. The rubber in the tires will have deformed and even if you get it running it will be a very bumpy ride to the tire shop. Also the gas tank absorbs water if you live in a humid region like Florida.<p>All of this is covered in the manual of every car I've ever owned. Drive it 5 minutes, at least, every few weeks to keep the lubricants lubricating or you end up with a very expensive rebuild.

While a lot of this accurate and something to consider, the author of this article fails to mention anything about Tesla's unique service/support model that they plan to roll out with the Model S. Tesla also mentions a "five-minute battery swap" available on their upcoming vehicles as well as "Tesla Rangers" that will come to your vehicle in the event that it dies. It seems to me like this is a small problem that the author is blowing out of proportion.

Five known cases out of 2,200 sales is a quarter of a percent. As a conservative estimate, let's say it's more like 1%. At $40,000 per replacement, adding $400 to the cost of the car (a 0.4-0.7% increase depending on model) seems nominal to then offer full coverage.<p>Granted, the problem gets worse as more "consumer-level" customers purchase their cars and don't take as good care of them.<p>Which then raises the question of why this is even possible. Why on earth will the car's systems happily destroy itself? Where's the "if BATTERY_LEVEL &#60; CRITICAL: shutDown()" line?

It seems like it's an inherent in this sort of battery. I'm not sure what Tesla could do to offset this. Computer makers mostly don't offer warranties in the case of negligence or intentional damage. The same seems to apply here.

What's the issue with the battery tech that makes it not chargable after a full discharge?

&#62; A service manager then informed him that “it’s a brick” and that the battery would cost approximately $40,000 to replace. He was further told that this was a special “friends and family” price, strongly implying that Tesla generally charges more.<p>&#62; $40,000 (or more) to fix his car<p>&#62; full $40,000-plus cost<p>&#62; At the same time, the Model S pricing starts at $49,900 (after US tax incentives), broadening the market to households of far more modest means than the owners of the $109,000 and up Roadster. This in turn makes it even less likely that Tesla buyers will have the necessary tens of thousands of dollars to spare if they ever allow their battery to fully discharge. ("Implying that battery cost will be the same as for Roadster, car that costs 2.5 times more")<p>Statements like this are generally bad for an article that tries to operate with facts.

I would like to see Tesla's response to this. I was going to pre-order a model X, i won't be now, until I know I won't be tracked and the car won't brick itself.

I'm much more in favor of hundreds of millions of govt money going towards 50-100MPG+ electric/gas hybrids than all electric at this point.<p>Limited range, hard to "refuel", and now the very real possibility of bricking. I think we are still a long long ways away from practical all electrics.

The <i>real</i> solution to this problem would be for tesla to setup "anti-brick" charging stations, install google's self-drive system on their cars, and program them to drive themselves to the nearest station and charge themselves if there is a risk of bricking ;P

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW.<p>Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving <i>unless</i> the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and when it pops up the battery can no longer be fully recharged. Not covered by the warranty, because apparently there's a one-liner in manual that says "20 minute a day continuous drive minimum". Unlike Tesla's though the battery is "only" $700 to replace, not $40k.

It's hard to imagine that, after all the hundreds of millions of dollars poured into this company, they would choose to charge the customer &#62; $30K for a new battery in the few cases where this occurred. Is it really worth a few hundred thousand dollars to get the PR this article implies?<p>And, why isn't there a failsafe mechanism that simply stops draining the battery completely before this happens? Then at least you can tow it home and recharge it -- inconvenient, but not $30K inconvenient.

If you leave a gasoline engine car unattended for a while, it becomes a brick, too -- you need to flush the fuel, replace the seals, etc. True, it takes more than 11 weeks, and you can usually put the transmission in neutral to tow it.<p>This is a big problem, though. If anyone has a spare Tesla and would like someone to take care of it, I'd be happy to keep your car garaged and energized, and will only drive it 200 miles a week. :)

Can someone explain why Tesla can't throw in a hibernation mode to dial down the idle power-drain? I mean, what are the "always on subsystems" doing that they're draining 50% charge in 7 days? Surely those systems and that level are drain aren't inherent in lithium-ion tech.<p>And if Tesla can notify itself of a battery in danger of bricking, why can't they notify the driver well in advance of the emergency?

I find the Japan story really hard to believe: buying a $50K+ car and not bothering to buy an AC transformer to plug it in?

Honestly, these cares look great and are all electric. Two things that i want in my next car. When i think electric car, i don't think of Ford, Nisan or any other generic (GM) brand. These guys pulled us from the dark ages of fuel (and the slightly brighter yet still dark ages of Hybrid cars) into the 21st century with a car that runs on electricity alone.<p>With that in mind, the issue of a "Brick" isn't something I want...but if it can be solved then I'm all up for this being my next car. Is there any evidence that this same issue cant occur in the other main stream electric cars coming onto the market anyway?

I've bricked a number of MacBook Pro batteries this way but (A) Scale is obviously different - only $100, and (B) Genius Bar came to the rescue - even though it really was my fault, they covered it under warranty.

Sounds like we got ourselves a great deal for the $400 million the government lent them.<p>With many of these vehicles in California, I shudder to think how many might brick just because the grid gets broken by an earthquake.

This strikes me as extraordinarily foolish. It's not that hard to have a hard shutdown mode in which most of those parasitic loads are gone and trigger it if the battery charge drops bellow a certain level. We've had that technology in laptops for quite a while. This is not a hard problem to solve, and it is obvious enough that it should have occurred to someone. Also, monitoring the current it is getting for charging and displaying a warning if it is insufficient and perhaps a projected charging time would be a good feature.

Sure reads like a competitor isn't too pleased with their model s plans.

The car is too risky to purchase if it can brick. There is no way to ensure that a brick can't happen. Any charging source could malfunction (e.g., trip a circuit breaker) without you becoming aware. You have to plan your whole life around keeping the car charged. You can't lend it to friends (nor your spouse that doesn't care about tech) --- oops, sorry, I didn't plug it in after my several-hour drive. It's like having a dog that needs constant care. This sounds too fantastic to be true.

Oh come on, this is a trivial problem to solve.<p>You put a $1 chip directly on the battery itself that if it ever drops below "x" volts, it breaks the circuit. Even if the owner has to take it back to the dealer to get it "reset" at least the battery will be saved.<p>My $500 LiFePo4 battery for my bicycle has something like this to prevent cell reversal. They can certainly do it for a car unless they are just doing it on purpose.<p>A disconnected lithium based battery can hold a base charge for YEARS.

Tesla uses apparently Li-ion battery. I wonder why I han't experienced the same problem with other electronics using that same type of battery. For example, I had my fully-charged mobile stored away for approx 5 months without charging. When I needed it again, the battery was still usable.<p>A side-question: can somebody explain what happens to a Li-ion battery when it fully discharges? Why does it become a "brick"?

5 cars out of 2200 doesn't really qualify as a devastating problem. The insurance for this for the fleet would probably run about $200/car based on a 100% profit for the insurer. Instead, charge $10/month per car and you are probably way ahead. If you have a Tesla and I get at least 100 people responding, I will do it for $20/month at my much smaller scale than a normal insurance company.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla will do the right thing and replace the battery packs at a reasonable price or create a PR disaster and then have to replace the packs anyway. So far HN and theunderstatement.com have the scoop. A search of the San Jose Mercury News doesn't show it yet. But there was mention of Tesla doing powertrains for Mercedes.

I don't think this affects Model S as much as it does the roadster - reason being - Model S is a car that you intend to use, not keep it in a garage as a collectors item - so it's probably going to be recharged on a regular basis. Stressing that it should be plugged if you intend to leave it for weeks is still important.

I would point out that both the Model S and X may very well have the circuitry to completely disconnect the cell pack at something below 10% actual charge (not displayed charge). I'm also really wondering how much of this is self discharge, and how much of this is poor load control of the standby electronics.

OK, so how much solar panels would Tesla need to install on the roof of a Model S to prevent this from happening?

Tesla are crony capitalists building a car that is worse for the environment (toxic battery, power waste across the grid, majority power from coal powerplants) than traditional combustion engine machines.

It would be interesting if they (or we) were to do a service that for say, £20 a month, they would register if your car was about to flatline, go find it using the GPS, and attempt to recharge it for you.

Why not just put in one or more normal car batteries to run idle systems and even act as a trickle charge when the car is turned off?<p>Also, a car that smart should be able to alert you in some way.

Unfortunate title for a blog post by Tesla con-founder,<p>"One Brick at a time"<p><a href="http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/one-brick-time" rel="nofollow">http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/one-brick-time</a>

Kind of crazy that for the price of just a new battery, you could get a lower class Audi or BMW. Really put the overall "electric" technology in perspective for me.

I wonder if this is one <a href="http://bit.ly/zIL8eL" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/zIL8eL</a>, either that or the secondary market is worse than I thought.

Without any further corroboration, I won't believe that this seemingly trivially addressed issue on an old model will affect future Tesla models.

This is one concerning I would NOT want hanging over my head every time I left the car for an extended period of time :-\

Why can't the battery just be simply disconnected?

Why can't the wheels turn after the battery dies?

I am actually curious that if it is a fundamental design issue with battery, how are major car makers like Nissan handling its Leaf car?<p>If everyone bricks their car needs to pay 40K for the replacement, it would be outrageous and all over the news. Personally, I do think that Tesla could have done more to make sure drivers are fully aware of this issue before making their purchase. Otherwise, I wouldn't put my money in Tesla stock, as they are sitting dock and waiting for class action lawsuits

<i>At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it’s not even possible to enable tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means.</i><p>Well, that's completely false. A flatbed, which seems to be pretty standard for towing these days, will have now problem at all winching that vehicle onto the platform, whether the wheels turn or not.

Um yeah so this why you should have a QA department.

&#62; a regional service manager for Tesla stated he was personally aware of at least five cases of Tesla Roadsters being “bricked” due to battery depletion.<p>This regional service manager has been sacked.<p>The correct answer here was, "I'm not sure, I'll see if I can look that up for you," evasively answering ugly questions 101.

There are too many rich shits in this world who have never known responsibility. If you want nice things you have to maintain them. I hope they never have pets or kids. You have to give them water, feed them and clean them all the time. It is inherent in the nature of some things that they screw up really quickly if you stop caring. It isn't a technology problem.

This is akin to leaving the headlights on when the car is turned off in a regular car. You're asking for trouble. (though not to the tune of $40,000)<p>When the car is turned off, there should be some kind of indication of how long it will take to brick the thing. If that indication is days rather than weeks, it should yell at you. Loudly. At least that way all owners will know of the threat. The car will educate them. (important, because they probably won't RTFM)<p>Although I'm sure you could still end up with the odd user who leaves the car with a three week brick time, receives no loud warning because of the significant charge remaining , comes back five weeks later and curses Tesla.